from Hacker News

How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

by RobinHirst11 on 11/23/24, 7:15 PM with 327 comments

by lijok on 11/23/24, 9:11 PM
Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start polishing your resume.
The reason you fluff up feedback to your subordinates is because lower down the chain they tend to be insecure and don't yet have the experience to distinguish between actionable impartial feedback, and threats to their job security.
The reason you don't fluff feedback, or any information for that matter to your superiors, is described in basically every handbook on highly effective communication in organizations.
by palata on 11/23/24, 9:51 PM
In my 13 years of experience, I would say it's never worth giving feedback to your manager. Either they are good and it's useless, or they are not and they won't learn from you.
I have come to a simple rule: if the manager is good, there is no problem. If the manager sucks (often that's because they lack experience, but it's all the same), just lie to them in order to preserve yourself. No need to have empathy for them: there is no karma out there. Bad managers usually have no problem climbing the ladder, even if it means making your life miserable. Work for you, not them.
by flog on 11/23/24, 9:02 PM
This was one of the most exhausting aspects of working for a US company, especially as an H1B. Simply: just don't say anything, it wasn't worth it.
I'm from cultures where we bluntly call a spade a spade and pride ourselves on disdain for hierarchy. There's far less fear in raising concerns generally to anyone, but it's quite possibly because of the far better employment laws.
by 5cott0 on 11/23/24, 9:47 PM
Captain Miller: "I don't gripe to you, Reiben. I'm a captain. There's a chain of command. Gripes go up, not down. Always up. You gripe to me, I gripe to my superior officer, so on, so on, and so on. I don't gripe to you. I don't gripe in front of you. You should know that as a Ranger."
Private Reiben: "I'm sorry, sir, but uh... let's say you weren't a captain, or maybe I was a major. What would you say then?"
Captain Miller: Well, in that case... I'd say, "This is an excellent mission, sir, with an extremely valuable objective, sir, worthy of my best efforts, sir. Moreover... I feel heartfelt sorrow for the mother of Private James Ryan and am willing to lay down my life and the lives of my men - especially you, Reiben - to ease her suffering."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhbObZEF0Mc Saving Private Ryan
by bambax on 11/23/24, 9:18 PM
In aviation this is what Crew Resource Management is about, and in particular, how to make sure the monitoring pilot, who may be the least experienced one, can effectively supervise and review the actions of the other. Many crashes were the result of copilots' fear of speaking up.
Business life could learn from this. The person in charge is not a king, they're simply the person tasked with making decisions. There is nothing scandalous in having another person evaluate those decisions against a set of principles or common sense, and speaking up when something doesn't feel right.
Better that than crashing into a mountain.
by kybernetikos on 11/23/24, 9:17 PM
Most of those examples (not giving enough direction, not training new hires enough, not being clear enough on priorities) are probably not going to be surprises for the person, and if you give feedback that shows you want someone to behave differently without having given some thought about why they aren't already then your feedback talks more about your own lack of experience and empathy than anything else.
To give good feedback to anyone you need to understand something about the pressures and challenges that they are facing. And remember that everything is a trade off. For example, perhaps they're incredibly busy, and would like to spend more time with new hires, but are struggling to find time because they aren't getting enough blocks of concentration time to work out clear priorities and they have been told they need to give their trusted colleague more opportunities to grow so they delegated it to someone.
Most likely, if you think something is a problem then they do too. They don't need to be told that or criticised for it, they need help solving the problem that causes the problem.
Imagine the difference between "I want to give you feedback that you aren't spending enough time with new hires" vs "I know you've been wanting to spend more time with the new hires, why don't you take them for lunch and send me to your status meeting over Tuesday lunch time this week."
As I started doing more leadership, I became aware that a lot of the things I might previously have cited as predictable examples of leadership incompetence causing problems were not surprises to leadership. They knew that this course of action would cause problems. The reason that they went ahead anyway was because they believed that the problems caused by the other courses of action available to them would be worse.
Of course, there are situations this advice does not apply, maybe the leader genuinely is clueless or evil or mistaken about the severity of a problem, but a good leader when presented with a problem elsewhere needs to start from a position of respect and learning and if you want to give advice to a leader you should start by trying to model good leadership yourself.
by lisper on 11/23/24, 8:51 PM
Another tactic I like to use is a riff on the authors suggestion #3: “Is there a reason you did (or did not do) X?” This works because it’s framed as accepting the decision and being genuinely curious about the rationale. Often the answer is: no, I never really gave it any thought. Other times there turns out to be a good reason that didn’t occur to me and it turns into a learning experience for me.
Another tactic that works for me is “Can I offer a suggestion?” The answer is almost always yes but it’s a sign of respect to ask.
by plank on 11/24/24, 10:01 AM
Dutch person here (have been told we are some of the most direct people): my experience is that it is not the words but the intention. E.g. the 'give more training' example: 'I do not understand why we do not give more training. It seemed to help with Steve, why are we not doing more so'. And being genuinely interested in the answer. Do not assume you are always right in assuming more training helps, but ask yourself why it may not be. Having an open mind can really help. And perhaps you were right to be astonished in 95% of situations, in 5% (or more) you might learn something. Other things are certainly true: it may be better to ask that question in private, as opposed to while the leader addresses the whole staff.
by zug_zug on 11/24/24, 1:49 PM
The interesting thing in my mind is how dysfunctional I've found reporting chains' behavior (to the company). I've found the same thing others here have found -- certain cultural backgrounds or a large preponderance of H1Bs create a culture where upward feedback is silenced.
And in the end usually the company loses out - directors forge ahead with ill-informed projects (rewrite entire system X), don't measure/cherry-pick/game-metrics, and create a major threat to anybody on the team who surfaces any contraindicating metrics (e.g. "Our pipeline still takes Y hours and nobody is happy about it, including us").
by ilitirit on 11/24/24, 7:05 AM
This title of my article doesn't make much sense to me. Why would you get fired for giving feedback? Is this just a US thing? I give feedback to my superiors all the time, and expect my subordinates to do the same. In fact, as far as my team goes, you're more likely to get into trouble (not fired) if you rarely give feedback.
by somishere on 11/23/24, 9:17 PM
Leaders don't hold all the power. As others have said, I think this is a good approach for everyone - showing a bit of empathy and "you don't know what you don't know" when corresponding with people. In fact it's good leadership 101.
Edit: can anyone suggest any good (free) tools for eliciting 360 feedback? Potentially anonymously?
by fny on 11/23/24, 9:36 PM
These are all rhetorical techniques to make your idea their idea. If you ever want to get anything done in painfully structured or faux-flat orgs, this is the way.
Why this psyop works:
1. People like to take credit for things.
2. People don't like to be wrong.
3. People get irked when a good idea wasn't their idea.
4. People don't like to feel threatened.
5. Just remove the duck.
The examples given are a little contrived, but the techniques applied are gold for more tricky scenarios.
by rrr_oh_man on 11/23/24, 9:12 PM
Do not give feedback to your boss.
https://www.manager-tools.com/2012/02/do-not-give-feedback-y...
by virtualritz on 11/24/24, 1:24 PM
Sounds culturally biased. From working in northern Europe and especially with people from Scandinavian countries, I'd say that for each of those examples the 'wrong' choice would be the more likely to be exchanged and taken at face value.
Whereas when I work with people from the US a lot of fluff is always needed or offense may be taken. Just as the article purports.
And there is also body language. Here is one of my favorite exchanges I once witnessed, between two senior leaders, one Spanish, one Finnish, after a few beers at a company party. I leave it to the inclined reader to guess who is from which country.
Sergio (gesticulating, grinning): Lauri, why don't you use your hands more when you're talking?
Lauri (hands flat on the table, straight face): Because it's not efficient.
by localhost3000 on 11/24/24, 8:54 AM
In my experience one of the best ways to "get ahead" is to give direct 1:1 feedback to someone higher up in your management chain for something that you are obviously right about it (some wiggle room here, but be sure to be atleast mostly right on a non-trivial topic). It demonstrates to them that you have good judgement and have backbone. They will trust you more and start to think of you as more of a peer than merely someone in their span of control (obviously you need to do this tactfully / not be a dick about it but also be firm). This has been a huge unlock for my career. ymmv.
by postit on 11/23/24, 10:26 PM
I hope corporate ling like this stops for good. Seriously. Bad management is the norm, not the exception. We're all suffering from poor leadership at every level; I bet you all can count the good managers you've had on one hand.
I'd rather live in a world where we could give blunt and direct feedback like, "You suck as a manager, why are you still insisting on this?" However, we live in a situation where the system will always push back against any dissenting voices, and in the end, back-patting and corporate camaraderie are what keep the wheels turning.
by creer on 11/24/24, 6:45 AM
One foremost aspect I see missing in the discussion is:
"It depends"
It depends massively and that's the main problem. So I'd focus on understanding how that works with this specific manager M you are concerned about. It will be different with another manager. After that it's detail. Managers are human, flawed, not anywhere near rational (not fully rational anyway), and in some cases crooked or insane. Just like their reports and bosses, kind of? Try and feel out how that manager operates before "doing anyone a service".
In particular, it means not relying on the idea that they would reason the same as you do.
Because for example, absolutely "providing info so they get to look good, privately so there is no loss of face" will blow up in your face with some managers. Even if it's to the detriment of that manager.
In some cases, it will be even worse than this because that manager will be well ahead of you and already have their own plans in place for their own future. In a case like this it's not even necessarily possible for you to imagine what reaction you might get.
To be fair, there is a general plan available for you: Cultivate a network, keep your resume in front of people. Then you can be bolder.
by teaearlgraycold on 11/23/24, 9:24 PM
If you’re not on a visa and don’t have kids I’d recommend simply not caring if you get fired by insecure leadership. You’re better off elsewhere if they would do that.
by ph4evers on 11/24/24, 7:04 AM
I’m too Dutch for this kind of indirectness. Say it without the fluff and not in public and everything will be fine.
by loup-vaillant on 11/24/24, 12:11 PM
One important option seem to be entirely missing here: Start. A. Union.
It seems the real problem here is the power difference between people, combined with the powerful side not having a thick enough skin… or lacking the actual competence that we ought to expect of their position.
A competent leader will not be offended or feel threatened by a piece of feedback, however negative: either the feedback is crap and they'll calmly say "nope, trust me I know what I'm doing here", or the feedback has enough truth in it for them to say "oops, I'll do better next time", and then proceed to actually do better.
An incompetent leader however likely know they're incompetent, and they're less likely to meaningfully judge feedback. They're more likely to look for social validation, and more importantly secure their position. Any negative feedback threatens that position, and when that feedback comes from below, the solution is obvious: slap the peasant down, perhaps even fire them.
Often there's little you can do around those people. For instance, I once applied for a contracting gig that would involve cryptographic work. I was rejected because I was "more competent than the project lead". My guess is the hiring manager there knew that if they brought in someone more competent than the project lead, things would go bad. Quite the indictment of the project lead if you ask me.
My best project lead on the other hand had no problem being a worse programmer than the people under him (the tech lead for sure, and I probably). He worked on the parts he could, trusted us to do our thing, and I trusted him with telling me the priorities. Best gig of my entire career.
by cess11 on 11/23/24, 9:16 PM
It's not a senior leader if they aren't spending a lot of time prying out this kind of information from their team already.
Looking at their web page this author seems like a professional bullshitter that pivoted into enabling other bullshitters, for a fee.
by codr7 on 11/23/24, 9:13 PM
I don't think tip toeing around people like this is a solution at all. But I've never worked in the US.
Some important questions:
1) Why are they a leader at all?
2) Why are they your chosen leader?
by pmarreck on 11/24/24, 4:08 PM
This is not the first conversation on HN about management and feedback I've seen where the wide range of opinion and disagreement may reflect only 4 possible things:
1) There is some ideal way to interact that exists, but is not yet known, so we're all essentially still just fumbling in the dark and occasionally encountering light from an as-yet-unknown source
2) There is some ideal way to interact that is more or less understood by some but not all because it is simply not being communicated well (the rate of incoming employees is greater than the rate of knowledge spread- incidentally, this is the same problem I suspect exists with functional languages being perennially less-popular)
3) There is some ideal way to interact that is understood and known but is incompatible with existing and persistent (stable dysfunctional equilibrium) dysfunctionalities in orgs
4) There is in fact no ideal way to interact in a hierarchy because it is largely dependent on the individual personalities of the participants as well as the setup of the org
by ninalanyon on 11/24/24, 9:55 AM
> If you do speak up, you might put your employment and well-being at risk.
I'm so glad i spent most of my career in Norway where that is so much less likely. In fact it putting your employment at risk is really so unlikely as to not be worth consideration. Well being is of course a bit harder to quantify and control.
by throwaway346434 on 11/24/24, 8:29 AM
This is all bad advice. A bad manager is rarely ignorant they are bad; they are often going to be insecure having moved outside of their comfort zone. A good leader is going to be aware they often act terribly and invite you to their world view - who knows, you could be wrong.
You can coddle bad managers as this article suggests; but take a step back and look at the bigger picture.
Will this person cause harm, death, or injury due to their decision making or lack there of? Attempt to fix them for a limited duration or get the hell out. Do it in a collaborative way, where you can enable them to make the right choices. That doesn't work? Get out. Don't enable them to cause harm.
by anticorporate on 11/23/24, 10:08 PM
> If you don’t speak up, you’re robbing your organization of your good insights.
No you're not. If your organization does not giving feedback easy, and safe, they're the ones who have failed. You don't owe them anything.
by rendall on 11/24/24, 7:48 AM
This is all cultural. As an immigrant from New York to a Nordic country, I have been lucky enough to experience two working cultures intimately. New Yorkers are considered blunt and no-nonsense, but I had no idea. Nordics are utter minimalists when it comes to feedback. It is unadorned and without any frills whatsoever. None of this couching the ouch between two positives. Nordics make New Yorkers look like Californians.
They will genuinely be confused by American-style feedback. Did you ever notice that we use a lot of superlatives? Something we like is the best, we love it, it's the greatest ever? That's not bad, it's just our style of talking, but the untrained Nordic will take that seriously. I have to tone that way down: "That code is really well done."
Moreover, you are required to give truthful feedback, here. It's not optional. If you think something is a bad idea and you don't say anything, you are doing a bad. If somehow you're caught not saying something, or worse, lying and saying you think it's a good idea, you will be in trouble and lose reputation.
This approach to giving and getting feedback took some getting used to, but I find it refreshing and I am afraid I'm spoiled for any other way.
by Tabular-Iceberg on 11/24/24, 11:25 AM
It’s also important to note that scrum masters, product owners and business analysts, despite what the company org chart may lead you to believe, belong to middle management and need to be treated accordingly.
Scrum masters are particularly dangerous because they are highly skilled at blending in by speaking and acting like developers. That’s why they are so popular to spend project money on despite their apparent uselessness.
by danjl on 11/23/24, 8:59 PM
Actually this is good advice for giving feedback to anyone.
by asdefghyk on 11/23/24, 10:33 PM
I assume the mentioned feedback could be interpreted as critical.
First I'd start by mentioning something they doing well OR something positive about them that relates to their job. Ie they have good attitude or get on good with co workers etc.
Then I would move on to what it was thought needed "some improvement" Id mention the "positive outcome" that would result if the feedback I was about to give was implemented. I could even tone it down ...with the words "...my opinion ..."
ie My opinion , is if we ( meaning the manager ) where to do "... what ever ..." it could result in this "....more desirable outcome..." I could soften it more by saying .... we tried this at my previous job ... and it gave "...whatever the positive result is "
( Giving effective feedback is a skill. I learnt how to do in a speech training program called "Toastmasters " We had a internal Toastmasters club for the company I worked add ( Not in the US ) with about 30 members. Often the other members where >several levels< above me. Me - a very junior person at the time. So had to give feedback to Senior staff about their speech. )
by terminalbraid on 11/23/24, 9:17 PM
I disagree with much of the premise and frankly don't think this person should be giving advice. Some of what's in there isn't bad like "be thoughtful about what you say". However, if you already feel something needs to be changed to the point where you're thinking something needs to be said but then you follow the article to force yourself to ask questions like
> “Can I live with this? How much does this bother me? Is it worth giving them feedback and what are my chances of success doing it?”
and doing multiple rounds of this you are compromising with yourself at an early stage. This frequently leads to things escalating (the problem didn't go away and in fact got incrementally worse because there was no negative feedback) which makes it a much harder situation.
This article is also written with examples like, if you don't make small changes to your wording, you'll get responses like "You think I don’t know that I need to give new hires guidance? I obviously gave them guidance. GTFO." which clearly catastrophizes outcomes based on small nuances in your own already inoffensive language.
Feedback is like gardening. Take care of small problems early and gently but relentlessly. If there's a wolf in your garden you should probably do something about the wolf instead of working around the wolf and spending your life in fear, even if that means finding a different garden.
I will recommend the book "The Coward's Guide to Conflict" which helped me get a healthy perspective.
https://www.amazon.com/Cowards-Guide-Conflict-Empowering-Sol...
by dakiol on 11/23/24, 10:30 PM
At work I always give positive and friendly feedback, regardless of who is asking. I don’t need to put myself in a position in which the receiver didn’t like or misunderstood my feedback the wrong way. What for? I couldn’t care less about their professional development, and I don’t want to be a blocker in their path to promotion.
I do my time, I get paid and move on. Don’t need drama at work.
by UltraSane on 11/23/24, 10:21 PM
One of the most annoying things in companies is how criticism only flows downwards and praise usually only only flows upwards.
by peppertree on 11/23/24, 9:38 PM
Feedback is pointless. Vote with your feet. If a team has high churn it's guaranteed the leadership is garbage.
by jen729w on 11/23/24, 9:48 PM
This is a lesson to us all, though. Like it or not — and it'll vary depending on your geography and industry and so on, I know — this is an issue of at least some proportion.
So, just be aware. Many of us are someone's boss. You might not feel like you're 'senior', but to them you are.
Be open. Listen. Don't react (immediately). Consider. Just stop and think for a second. Realise that these other people's views are, at the very least, worth considering. (They may, of course, be wrong.)
One of the most rewarding things I did before I left the corporate world was have a 26-year-old grad as a direct report. I was 46 and had 'Head of…' in my job title. She was as smart as anything and it was an incredible experience. Hopefully, for us both.
by gorjusborg on 11/26/24, 3:29 PM
Answer: they need to be open to hearing it first, and you need to be someone they trust.
How to build trust? Make it clear you are on their 'side'.
Luckily giving feedback can be that way:
- Give any positive feedback publicly
- Give any negative feedback privately
- Rather than give negative feedback, come with concrete things that could be done to improve things. Try not to assign blame.
Do this consistently while being good at your job and they are more likely to not misinterpret your opinions as rationalization
by firefoxd on 11/23/24, 10:47 PM
I think this article is teaching you how to dance on a song that isn't being played for you. Unless the feedback is something that is going to benefit, or improve your own work, then toss it aside. My experience [1].
Unless your company is in pursuit of a noble human endeavor, just make sure you get some good work done, and make good connections along them way. The truth is rarely what a company seeks. So if your manager is imperfect, don't sweat it.
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21766903
by yodsanklai on 11/24/24, 12:48 AM
> How to give a senior leader feedback (without getting fired)
I don't do it because it can play against me in the worst case. And I won't get anything out of it. People can be more sensitive than it seems and unsolicited feedback isn't always welcome.
My company is big on feedback, so we're expected to give peers and managers feedback. I never fill the "constructive feedback" part of the form, or I just put something harmless. We also have anonymous evaluation forms. If something is wrong with manager or leadership, it'll show there.
by GianFabien on 11/24/24, 4:17 AM
My very simple process:
```
    Do you want the job?
  or
    Do you want to be right?
```
If you choose to be right, then get a job where you can be right. Probably means becoming a manager.
by Kiro on 11/23/24, 9:59 PM
I love that I live in a country where I can just tell my superiors exactly how they suck and never risk getting fired. It might not be wise for other reasons but fire me they cannot.
by rapjr9 on 11/25/24, 12:04 AM
People have ego's. Instead of saying they are wrong, adopt their perspective and help them discover your perspective. They may like your perspective and adopt it as their own reasoned opinion, lead them to it, and then they may adopt it and own it. Sometimes you'll find they have unstated reasons for choices, find workarounds for them. This is a basic human skill everyone should understand.
by j45 on 11/24/24, 2:17 AM
One rule I try to remember with leaders is to speak for impact and not impressing them.
Dealing with senior leaders (VP/Director, not C-suite) can be different too.
Managing up and influencing others may work well, or not at all.
Working one's way up in different workplaces, industries and regions can vary wildly and I would probably caution from my own experience in a lot of verticals that it's best to get to know the scenario and see if you can recognize what might help.
by callc on 11/24/24, 4:36 PM
I’m sick of dealing with managers and bad leaders, and want to get back to coding and building cool stuff.
Is there any solution for this? Co-op? Contract work? Consultancy? Union? Flat org structure? Self employment? Start a company with a couple of engineer friends and have flat org, based on trust?
I’m guessing only the last two options are promising. I’d appreciate hearing everyone’s stories, as I am genuinely interested.
by hcfman on 11/24/24, 8:06 AM
Re-title the article to be called
“How can I suck up EVEN MORE than I am now”
I understand the wisdom that they are trying to convey. But sucking up to those on higher pay grades like this for the greater good of the company? I think if it’s that dangerous providing feedback to the company then upper management need to put even more effort into determining who makes good leadership material.
by la64710 on 11/24/24, 3:11 PM
And then from her other article :
Give enough context to avoid back-and-forth follow ups. Don’t be coy when you can be direct. Don’t speak in stream of consciousness. Assume your manager is task switching or checking your Slack message between meetings—make it super easy for them to catch up on context and dive into what you want to discuss.
by ElevenLathe on 11/25/24, 3:34 PM
These seem like decent tricks but make sure the juice is worth the squeeze. IME you can't change anyone's mind about anything, and trying will usually piss them off. If you don't like your boss, go shopping for a new one instead of trying to reform the one you have.
by cryptozeus on 11/24/24, 7:03 AM
Superiors love to solve their problem first, its as simple as that. Not in a bad way but they are dealing with 10 times issues compare to your own level issues. Manager > Team Lead > IC so start there. Dont just complaint about superior, try to deal with it from problem solving approach.
by brunooliv on 11/23/24, 9:35 PM
I found strange to see so much criticism of the post as usually, anything that Wes Kao writes really resonates with me as a senior IC. Usually there’s a great balance of nuance and depth to the advice that makes it easy to digest and pick small bits and pieces to try out on my own context
by meindnoch on 11/24/24, 11:17 AM
Very simple. Make sure the feedback is positive. You can give negative feedback on Glassdoor.
by interludead on 11/24/24, 3:29 PM
The "even more" technique is brilliant because it bypasses the natural defensiveness that feedback can trigger, especially in hierarchical settings. Framing suggestions as amplifications of existing strengths is genius.
by AdrianB1 on 11/23/24, 10:11 PM
- ChatGPT, give me a few ideas on xxx
- These are a few points for you to use
Write an article with that. Get mentioned on HN.
by wtcactus on 11/24/24, 11:36 AM
The moment I'm in a position where I can't say - politely of course, like I do to any other person at work - that I think the direction they are taking is wrong, is the moment I'll start searching for another job.
by zuppy on 11/24/24, 2:06 PM
i was in that position of receiving a negative feedback over certain things from one of the people i manage (and i believe any manager has been at least once). surprise, i’m not perfect :-)
the best way to tell it is to be direct, with examples. i want to know that, i want to improve myself. i only expect perfect honesty.
it’s good for both parties. i’m a no bs guy. tell me things straight, good and bad, i will do the same always in a fair honest way. i expect nothing else and there are no repercussions for that. in the end, if you are unhappy and you do nothing about it, nothing will change.
by kunley on 11/24/24, 7:29 PM
Once I got fired because commented when boss smoked weed at work and liked to be intoxicated at workplace by other means as well. Who can beat that
by passwordoops on 11/23/24, 10:23 PM
Without getting fired? "That's a brilliant idea! The only reason we won't execute is incompetence."
Deviate and your career will stall at best
by humanfromearth9 on 11/24/24, 9:40 AM
Actually you just don't give feedback to your superiors. But you really may/should plant the seeds of ideas in their brains. You discuss concepts, fundamental stuff that will grow into their brain and make them change. This takes time, patience and repetition, like educating a kid. It's actually the same, nothing has changed there.
And you remain modest and ready to learn and listen. Especially because your superiors always have information that you don't have and which might explain decisions which you don't understand, and won't without this information.
And you don't "tell", you ask about topics, and show interest.
Then you might be able to propose real help to your boss, and suggest him to delegate some responsibility to you. And that's where you have some agency to create meaningful change. Bingo.
by rietta on 11/23/24, 10:30 PM
What about the simple, "may I talk to you for a minute in private?" And then clearly state the information that you need to share.
by mikkom on 11/24/24, 11:21 AM
What an awful title and premise. Senior leaders who can't take feedback without firing you should be fired immediately.
Br, CTO
by everyone on 11/24/24, 3:54 PM
If I'm gonna be fired for being honest and trying to do a good job, then I'm quitting.
by bravetraveler on 11/24/24, 9:59 AM
Back pressure is an important characteristic of a functional system. Don't dress it up.
by iancmceachern on 11/24/24, 4:08 PM
Just don't. It will never work out in your benefit. Just dont.
by sixhobbits on 11/24/24, 7:53 AM
There are a lot of comments about the up vs down hierarchy thing, but I think it's not really the most important factor for "giving feedback", which here seems to mean more "advocating for change".
The important factors are
- do you have a good understanding of where your goals and priorities differ and where they overlap? Maybe you want to reduce tech debt and your manager wants to hit q3 goals. Then saying "spending 1 week addressing this issue will allow us to implement features a,b,c in 2 weeks instead of 4" is stating your goal with an emphasis on how it helps manager get to theirs.
- do you have an existing relationship of trust? Humans are pretty tribal. If person you're talking to up or down defaults to "this is an ally who usually says competent things" then you can be much more direct and blunt. "Your idea is stupid because of these flaws that you didn't consider". If you don't have that trust, then some of the sugar coating "fluff" is necessary to avoid emotional reactions.
by flymaipie on 11/23/24, 9:20 PM
Why on earth would someone deserve to be fired based on mere "feedback"? As long as it's not an outright offensive rant, it should be handled sensibly. But even if it is an offensive rant, firing should be a last resort. The amount of toxic subordination that's assumed to be normal is sickening.
by inopinatus on 11/23/24, 10:37 PM
This is entirely the perspective of an abusive CEO. As we say here in Australia, get fucked. What an entitled grub.
by notnmeyer on 11/23/24, 9:13 PM
pretty interesting. i think i fall on the blunt end of the communication spectrum, so this gave me some things to think about.
by ideasphere on 11/24/24, 12:30 AM
I agree that bluntness is often mishandled, but the sort of language in this article just reads as wildly disingenuous. Obfuscating your actual point (and visceral, human feelings/opinions/experience!) to hopefully confuse your subject into compliance. Makes me think of that brain-dead article a few years back about how you should dodge offering support in close personal relationships. “I don’t have capacity,” “I’m not paid to perform emotional labour” etc. Sad! Promote humanity!
by greybox on 11/24/24, 10:19 AM
Should be renamed: "How to not offend people with fragile self-esteem"
by xyst on 11/24/24, 2:08 PM
I used to be able to tell my bosses to “fuck off” (usually ones I got well with) when asked something absolutely absurd; or just tell the plain truth. Now in this hypercapitalistic world, you have to fluff your feedback so you don’t hurt their fragile egos.
by sgt on 11/24/24, 1:16 PM
Jesus, most of this is just tip toeing around feedback, turning 3 words into 30. Just be direct but say it in a friendly, yet humble way.