from Hacker News

Washington governor announces shutdown of restaurants, bars

by cosmic_shame on 3/16/20, 2:38 AM with 544 comments

• by dang on 3/16/20, 11:53 AM

  All: the debate about economic effects vs. health effects is turning nasty in places and could get a lot worse. Let's not go there. Please find ways to make your substantive points that don't nudge HN threads in that direction.

  If you comment, make sure you're up to date the site guidelines. Note this one: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

  https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

• by eyegor on 3/16/20, 3:16 AM

  This is going to be an economic catastrophe unless there's somehow a nationwide bailout to literally all brick and mortar businesses. I know of several local bar/restaurants that are considering shutting down for good, and a colleague near Melbourne told me of 4 that already have (I'm eastern US). Even if this all blows over in 3 months, we'll have a huge surge in homelessness and folks needing social assistance across the board.

• by dang on 3/16/20, 3:51 AM

  It's probably best if we aggregate these links in one place rather than having a separate thread for each new location. (Similarly to what we did at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22550840)

  NYC: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22589463

  California ("calls for", not enforced): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22587062

  Others?

• by topkai22 on 3/16/20, 4:02 AM

  When talking about economic damage it is also worth thinking about what we are trying to avoid in the US- if SARS-Cov2 gets to 60% of the population, then at a 2% case fatality rate we are looking at 4 million excess deaths. Most importantly, that is a humanitarian tragedy that we must avoid. However, having numbers also let’s us put an economic value out there for what we are trying to save.

  A 1% reduction in the case fatality rate saves roughly 2M people. Let’s assume that each would live another 10 years and that each person year is worth $100k. That means a 1% reduction in the case fatality rate is worth 2 trillion dollars. That’s roughly 10% of GDP. You can play with the numbers a bit, it’s hard not to end up in the “taking a multi year recession might be worth it” territory. Obviously, there are decreasing marginal returns to various actions, but the it’s important to keep in mind the scale of what we are trying to avoid.

• by Merad on 3/16/20, 2:58 AM

  IMO the only question now is how long it takes the rest of the country to follow suite. Here in NC our governor announced the closing of all public schools on Friday, but I've heard from several friends that in my city (Raleigh) the downtown bars and restaurants were pretty much at normal capacity this weekend. I don't think the general public is going to truly take this seriously until they're told that they have to.

• by caconym_ on 3/16/20, 2:47 AM

  Good. Aggressive steps like this are the only way we'll get a handle on what's happening. The alternative is exponential runaway and complete disaster.

  Full disclosure: I live in Seattle.

• by sershe on 3/16/20, 2:23 PM

  This may get downvoted, but I think the following judgement-free statement is true: this is starting to look scary/serious /solely/ because of the measures the governments are taking, and the media circus around it. Otherwise (while it would have almost certainly "started to look serious" eventually, probably for a short time), at this point, you would not have even noticed given the actual numbers.

• by DoreenMichele on 3/16/20, 3:01 AM

  “Restaurants will be allowed to provide take-out and delivery services but no in-person dining will be permitted.

  I live an SRO. I don't have a kitchen. I currently don't have a fridge. I have a small grill and some shelving to store stuff.

  I eat a lot of takeout. I'm glad to see I can still get takeout.

  But, wow. This is beginning to look pretty scary.

  I was homeless for a few years. The quarantine/containment measures are turning into a really big problem for the homeless population.

  I don't even know where to begin trying to talk about that. At this point, I find the whole homelessness in the US thing simply infuriating. We mostly need to solve our housing supply issue and people are wholeheartedly against that and it's just infuriating.

  I will add that Little Caesar's now has a "pizza portal" where you order online, pay online and enter a code to get your pizza yourself without ever interacting with a person. I don't know how to scream this from the rooftops so everyone gets the memo, but someone should.

• by dkdk8283 on 3/16/20, 3:55 AM

  I’m probably in the minority but I lean towards the UK model. My suspicion is that the mortality rate is lower due to inadequate testing.

  Call me a cynic but after 9/11 I’m weary of temporary measures that become permanent in one way or another.

• by lsllc on 3/16/20, 3:05 AM

  Gov. Baker has done the same today in Massachusetts. A one month ban on on-site service starting Tuesday. Any food establishment will be allowed to do delivery or take out even if they didn't previously have a license for it.

  https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2020/03/15/charlie-ba...

  EDIT: It's until April 5th, so 3 weeks not a month:

  https://whdh.com/news/all-mass-restaurants-and-bars-ordered-...

• by grosales on 3/16/20, 3:43 AM

  I have lived in the US for 20 years now - I am a millennial. I am originally from Peru. When all of this started I thought the US was going to handle it. We all were going to rally together and take care of each other. We would exercise social isolation and hold this virus off. The rate the trend is going should be scary for anyone (at least the people reading hacker news). I am surprised of people thinking this won't affect them. If widespread and out of control, it will affect everyone.

  Funny enough that my country of birth, Peru, just declared a national emergency and declared quarantine for everyone in the country. Peru is a democratic country - at least for the last 20 years - but it had to enact this to stop the virus from spreading. It's a bold move, it's not a popular one, but it's the right one imho.

  We should be doing the same, our current leader is - unfortunately - a coward who will always be afraid of taking a risk. It's on us then, as responsible citizens to make sure we don't go out unless we really need to for a while - at least that we can control. Just my two cents.

• by jeffy on 3/16/20, 3:17 AM

  This is overall a good move if we want a chance to greatly slow the spread. However it needs to be coordinated with the rest of the country if we want to minimize the total downtime. Shutting down Washington now and having to wait weeks for Idaho to follow (where there are no reported cases) is just going to force Washington to extend theirs as long as it takes for the last state to shut down.

• by graeme on 3/16/20, 3:44 AM

  Anyone found any good info on the risks of food itself.

  Eg kitchen staff is infected, coughs into meal

  1. Do you get if it’s cold food, like a salad or sushi?

  2. If yes, do you get it if it’s warm food, like indian food?

  3. If yes, do you get if you reheat/microwave the food? If so, what is required/

  Have not seen a lot of discussion about this. Did see that in china restaurants would certify the body temperatures of all involved.

• by starpilot on 3/16/20, 2:52 AM

  Canlis (fine dining place, think Michelin) made a really interesting switch in order to keep the lights on. They shut down their restaurant and are starting a drive-thru burger stand, a bagel stand, and a meal delivery service, rather than lay off all their workers. I'm going to try their burgers tomorrow.

• by troydavis on 3/16/20, 3:43 AM

  Puerto Rico also started a curfew that restricts movement except going to/from work, grocery stores/pharmacies, or health care: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/coronavirus-puerto-ric...

  I'm in Seattle and, other than these closures, complete movement restrictions would be the next step here.

• by shartshooter on 3/16/20, 3:35 AM

  This is a good move. We’re obviously moving slower than we ought to and only time will tell how late we are.

  The one thing we, in the US, have been consistent in this is that we’re too slow to act.

  There’s obviously a risk of the pendulum swinging the other way but until we see a down tick in cases we have to assume we’ve got ground to make up.

  Case growth won’t start decreasing until social distancing is widely adopted.

• by A4ET8a8uTh0 on 3/16/20, 3:35 AM

  Similar measures were just mandated in IL. Basically, take out and delivery are your only real options. We are kinda stocked up, but we will both keep ordering in just to keep local businesses going. Our family unit is oddly priviledged during this outbreak.

  Tbh, I am slowly starting to get worried as recent FED move again focuses on banks and not on small business relief.

• by tinyhouse on 3/16/20, 3:03 AM

  Also in MA and other states. But VERY important to note: "Restaurants will be allowed to provide take-out and delivery services".

• by icelancer on 3/16/20, 3:00 AM

  As usual, these announcements never come with any promise or a plan of economic relief (or at least reference to plans already made) for businesses force closed, creating more panic. I don't understand why it's so hard to just say: "We will take care of the businesses affected by this policy and more details are forthcoming."

  Shutting them down is the right move. Taking care of small businessowners running on thin margins - like mom/pop restaurants - is also the right move.

  EDIT: Unless the government has no plans to help small businesses. Which is completely possible and probably even likely.

• by Shivetya on 3/16/20, 10:32 AM

  I expect many fast food to just follow Chik fil-a's example of going drive through only. I was wondering when a state would take that option themselves.

  Still like comments about original restrictions of larger gatherings, many grocery stores and big box stores can have more people in them than a restaurant and touching more items too

• by decebalus1 on 3/16/20, 3:28 AM

  Good. Seattle resident here. Have been ordering takeout for the past two weeks and honestly don't understand the large parties I've been seeing in local pubs for the past week. I find it sad that this needs a 'proclamation' from the Governor, when basic common sense is that you need to avoid crowds.

• by Leary on 3/16/20, 5:06 AM

  For places that don't want to close restaurants. Would it be legal in America for the restaurants to check everyone's temperature before they enter the premise (guests+ cooks+ waiters).

  Wouldn't be perfect but could slow transmission down while giving them a way to earn money.

• by cozzyd on 3/16/20, 3:17 AM

  Illinois governor Pritzer announced the same about 8 hours ago starting tomorrow evening (takeout / delivery would remain open). Conveniently aligning with the closing of schools I guess. I strongly expect tomorrow will be my last day in the office for a while.

• by Leary on 3/16/20, 6:14 AM

  I know this probably won't be enough, but how about tax exemption for all business affected by shutdown order in 2020 paid by the federal government

• by Phylter on 3/16/20, 12:17 PM

  They've done this in Illinois too. What's happened is people are self-isolating to prevent the spread even though government is pleading with them to do so. So, they're having to force the issue. If people still don't get the hint they'll have to put curfews in place.

• by gnulinux on 3/16/20, 4:12 AM

  This is good. You can find in this thread that other states are following the suit. This might, just might if we're lucky, that the curve will start becoming quadratic and then logarithmic.

• by jakeogh on 3/17/20, 5:34 AM

  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22583594

• by tayo42 on 3/16/20, 3:38 AM

  How long does this go on for? Realistically we can't just live with the world shut down (can we?) with a vaccine far off, this can't be the new normal?

• by CriticalCathed on 3/16/20, 4:43 AM

  It has been refreshing to see the mask come off of those feigning care about "undesirables" who would be disproportionately affected by this virus. At the end of the day we come down to economic calculations to decide whether to let hundreds of thousands to millions of people die in this country.

  The moral choice isn't always the most efficient one. I wonder if we will have the courage to make the moral choice?

• by thrownaway954 on 3/16/20, 12:19 PM

  not trying to be a wise ass in anyway, a legitimate question .. i'm wondering do you have to shutdown a bar that still allows smoking? can the virus even survive on surfaces and in the air if tobacco smoke is present?

• by alexmingoia on 3/16/20, 3:09 AM

  California Governor has just done the same: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22589365

• by whiddershins on 3/16/20, 3:09 AM

  NYC too

• by js2 on 3/16/20, 3:09 AM

  Aside, but I want to call out Miami Dade Public Schools for being the only public school system I'm aware of that has had a contingency plan in place for years:

  On rare occasions it may be necessary to close a school(s) due to weather or other emergency situations. If this occurs, the district will make every effort to ensure that our students' educational opportunities continue while at home. Throughout the years, the district has compiled a comprehensive collection of online content and digital resources. The district also provides mobile devices for students to check out for home use to ensure that district students (non charter) can continue their learning without interruption.

  ...

  The Instructional Continuity Plan (ICP) has three components: Content Delivery, Mobile Devices, and Internet Access. Content Delivery explains which resources students will use for core instruction and which materials can be used as supplemental resources to enhance core instruction. Mobile Devices provides the steps the district is taking to ensure that any student who needs a mobile device to access the instructional resources will be provided with one, upon request, for the duration of the schools' closure. ... Internet Access poses the greatest challenge to ensuring that M-DCPS students can continue their studies while at home. The district has taken steps throughout the years to assist students in getting access to the internet at home through projects such as The 1Million Project; however, partnerships with service providers is crucial to providing free or reduced-cost internet service to students should the district close in case of emergency situations.

  http://icp.dadeschools.net/#!/fullWidth/2943

  Also:

  Miami-Dade County Public Schools (M-DCPS) is continuing its efforts to provide support to students and their families during school closures, which begin tomorrow, March 16. From distance learning, to community feedings, to facilitating childcare for essential medical personnel, M-DCPS stands firm in its commitment to support the South Florida community during this time of uncertainty.

  A support hotline was established for teachers, students, and parents seeking assistance with distance learning.

  During school closures, students and families may pick up hot meals to go, both breakfast and lunch, between 9:00 a.m. and 12:30 p.m.

  A Mental Health Services hotline will be available for students.

  An Employee Assistance Program hotline will also be available.

  http://covid19.dadeschools.net/#!/fullWidth/3024

  In contrast, I am extremely disappointed in how haphazard things are going in NC. I'm particularly disappointed in the UNC system which appears to have done zero advanced planning.

• by nimbius on 3/16/20, 5:51 AM

  one has to wonder. If this virus didnt disproportionately target baby boomers...would we still see this level of response?

• by boznz on 3/16/20, 3:40 AM

  My Daughter was working as a temp between jobs and the work has now been stopped, she had two second interviews planned in Sydney this week now both positions have been retracted and nobody hiring or interviewing, she has about 7 weeks of cash savings and 4 months lease on a rental. Oh and no unemployment benefit or subsidies as she is New Zealander working in Australia.

  Young People at the lowest risk from this virus are going to be much worse off than just catching a fucking bad cold.

  The UK's answer to the problem is starting to look a lot more sensible than total economic chaos being caused by all other methods.

  Happy to be downvoted to nothing because I am so over this.

• by marshallant on 3/16/20, 2:54 AM

  Can't wait to lose my job over this complete overreaction to this virus.

• by acoderhasnoname on 3/16/20, 2:59 AM

  Great action, well done

• by cheunste on 3/16/20, 2:55 AM

  Welp, I guess my trip to Sakuracon is officially cancelled...again.

• by sytelus on 3/16/20, 7:15 AM

  Most restaurants around here already had 1/4th of customers and almost never over 10 at a time sufficiently distanced away. It still provided workers to come in any way and get whatever minimum wage they can. I feel this move is boneheaded and is just a knee jerk reaction without actually knowing the above fact. Most folks working in restaurants don't even have a week worth of savings. They don't have investments or own homes. They still have to pay rents pretty soon. Governer is ignoring all of these to make an appearance that he is making swift aggressive action. He has made zero provisions for all of these people who will be on the verge of losing their roof. The least he could have done would be to mandate no evictions during these closures so the financial load is transferred to rich rent collectors and investors with sufficient fat as opposed to these poor people.

• by ryanSrich on 3/16/20, 5:54 AM

  This feels like a much worse outcome than just taking the virus on the chin and letting 40-70% of the population get sick. That may seem contrarian, but this panic feels worse than the actual virus. More people will die from economic hardship than from COVID.