from Hacker News

On Redis master-slave terminology

by kragniz on 9/6/18, 9:11 PM with 95 comments

• by lazzlazzlazz on 9/6/18, 9:38 PM

  Good for antirez. We all know what master-slave mean in a computing context and separate it from distant historical meanings, just as we don't get offended by `parent.kill(child)`.

  Some people get moral enjoyment from finding ways to feign offense... at best, it is a waste of time to indulge much of these false complaints.

  Our goodness and values show in our worldly actions.

• by atonse on 9/6/18, 9:49 PM

  Thank you for saying this. I am pretty strongly socially liberal (mainly a "live and let live" type mentality), and strongly support the idea of fairness and equality for all, regardless of race, ethnic group, gender identity, or sexual orientation.

  But I too think this level of extreme political correctness and people getting mobbed and harassed as a result has really gotten out of hand.

  People do NOT have a right to not be offended. Somehow we've forgotten that.

• by xook on 9/6/18, 10:18 PM

  Slavery of the human race, whether 1, 10, or 1000 people, transcends race, culture, and time. It is an issue still going on today due to trafficking, and to place it squarely as an issue with white v. black (which implies only white people have ever engaged in the practice) is ignorant. I welcome all inclusive efforts, but it seems these types of people (activists et al) have forgotten that those terms are not just confined to colonial America.

  (Please correct me if there is an error with this process.)

  Edit: I would like to point out that this is not a criticism of the author or OP. It's an observation. (Also, edited wording.)

• by jonny_eh on 9/6/18, 9:49 PM

  I can see the argument for avoiding the terminology for new products going forward. But trying to shame a project lead for not taking on the extra work (and user confusion) to change it after the fact is super gross.

• by asteli on 9/6/18, 9:54 PM

  Retroactively changing terminology is a pain, but if you're doing greenfield development, you can just as easily use "Primary/Replica," which in addition to being a tasteful use of language, is actually more accurate in the context of databases.

  There are a bunch of goofy alternatives as well, like "Master/Minion" or hell, why not "Dom/Sub?"

• by umvi on 9/6/18, 9:56 PM

  Is this just virtue signalling or are people actually offended by stuff like this? It reminds me of when Harvard Law tore down their school crest recently because it was the coat of arms of a family in the early 1800s that owned slaves.

  If you judge historical figures by modern morals and standards you'll find everyone is a bad person. In that case we should wipe George Washington and Thomas Jefferson's faces off of our currency because their families owned slaves too, nevermind their contributions to America.

• by frakkingcylons on 9/6/18, 9:43 PM

  I think antirez's initial resistance to changing the terminology is reasonable, and obviously doesn't warrant the name-calling. Without a doubt there would be a lot of overhead to change documentation and code.

  That said, regardless of the past and ongoing use of master/slave terminology, we should be trying to steer away from it. It's insensitive and just generally unpleasant.

• by honkycat on 9/6/18, 9:51 PM

  If it was a new product I was writing, I would use different terminology.

  But bending over backwards and rewriting and re-documenting a huge part of your extremely popular application because a subset of a subset of people find it offensive is... strange.

  Also loved the reply: "You call me a fascist, you know, those people who attacked and killed people over here less than 100 years ago. Maybe YOU should watch your language." OWNED! HA!

• by teilo on 9/6/18, 10:31 PM

  Great response. I will add: Do not give in to these people, even an inch. If you do, they will never be satisfied, but will find the next hill of offense to conquer, and eventually your entire project will forget its purpose.

• by teddyh on 9/7/18, 7:44 PM

  When this topic (back then it was Drupal, not Redis) was discussed here five years ago¹, I wrote this:

  > Interestingly, DNS has gone the other way. It used to be that it was called “primary” and “secondary” DNS servers, but now the preferred terms are “master” and “slave” servers.

  You have to look at really old RFCs to see the old terminology, but it’s there.

  1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6826918#6827140

• by DoreenMichele on 9/6/18, 10:06 PM

  It's unfortunate that this is so poorly written in terms of it being quite obvious that he speaks English as a second language. I also have mixed feelings about a few other details.

  But, on the whole, I agree with the sentiment.

  I'm older than I used to be and this has made me more appreciative of polite language. But a lot of people who use what I used to somewhat contemptuously call "polite catch phrases" are often not actually any more respectful of other people than those that don't. That genuine respect matters far more to me.

  In essence, I think he is correct that what America needs to do is set things right by its own people instead of telling non-Americans that they need to jump through hoops over our emotional baggage for relatively minor details of this sort.

• by TAForObvReasons on 9/6/18, 9:50 PM

  FWIW other large vendors like Microsoft use terms like primary/replica instead of master/slave. That one database uses the phrase in 2018 (MySQL) does it doesn't mean we shouldn't still strive to find more precise language

• by toomuchtodo on 9/6/18, 9:38 PM

  Cheers Salvatore. I appreciate your stance on this ("political bikeshedding", if that's a thing).

• by Svoka on 9/7/18, 1:08 PM

  Term "political correctness" is very loaded, and using it basically flags a narrative.

  No one would argue for "political correctness", only some would argue against it, because only place it exists in their imaginations.

• by dayjah on 9/6/18, 10:12 PM

  Context: I'm in the "source and replica"-camp. I'm English and white passing.

  I really appreciate antirez's point on this, "Mark" definitely seems to be a person with their heart in the right place but lacking tact and being intolerant to decisions not going his way; especially given the technical work this change would necessitate the change does not seem appropriate.

  That said, I hope that in time the technical world will settle on some alternative to ensure we can talk freely without distracting or offending folks.

  A few years ago I was in a meeting talking about database options, hitherto I had used "master/slave" to describe this database topology. In that meeting was an African American co-worker ("Frank") and as the words left my mouth I realized that completely irrespective of my intent I brought into the room the spectre of times past. I've no idea how Frank felt about it - but all of a sudden I had lost all ability to continue my point. I paused and said something that amounted to: "you know,... that phrase is fucked up - let's not use it - what words should we use?" and Frank suggested we look at what terms Amazon uses; they used "source and read replica" and that's what we went with. I've never regretted recoding my use of words on that one.

  If there's anything that this post-Trump era has really brought into focus for me: it's that my privileges of being white, able bodied, and male results in me being least well positioned to say what is offensive or not. If you think it's offensive, open it up to the rest of the room and establish how to move forward.

• by antimatter on 9/7/18, 12:16 AM

  Ah, yes, the widespread cancer of critical theory strikes Redis.

• by spamlord on 9/6/18, 9:55 PM

  Good job antirez, do not give into ideologically possessed control freaks and busybodies that actively seek out offense in everything. You can never fully satisfy them so don't even bother trying. They do not care about the 'morality' of the master/slave language here, but merely use it as a tool to control behavior of others and exert unearned power over your project. It's a pathetic power play, and nothing more.

• by minikites on 9/6/18, 10:56 PM

  The next time someone uses the phrase "political correctness", replace it in the sentence with "treating people with dignity" and re-read it.

• by minikites on 9/6/18, 9:54 PM

  >Moreover I don't believe in the right to be offended, because it's a subjective thing. Different groups may feel offended by different things.

  Spoken like someone who has never had to face systemic oppression.

• by mjkunc on 9/7/18, 12:49 AM

  Or maybe, you could not write a blog post and just fix your fucking terminology.