by fuligo on 8/3/15, 10:57 AM with 449 comments
by mkozlows on 8/3/15, 1:10 PM
And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing move... unless you turn it into one, by letting your skills stagnate and wither, which is on you.
(Or maybe that wasn't a development job for those ten years? The article is vague. If, for some reason, the poster was out of the dev world for a decade then yeah, it's going to be harder to get back in without a lot of aggressive self-retraining. But even then, if you actually can program, it should be very do-able.)
by fringedgentian on 8/3/15, 12:21 PM
After a few months I realized I was unemployable and set out to change it. Being unemployed, I luckily had a lot of free time. I made a study of the programming job ads in my target market and if I didn't know what a technology was, I looked it up. I tried to figure out which language was the most asked for, and decided it was PHP (at the time). Also in my studies and in the job ads I noticed that most of the work involved these new-fangled Content Management Systems and so decided I needed to learn one of those, and I chose Joomla. It was a choice I would later come to regret but it got me a job.
To learn these, for both PHP and Joomla I ordered a book from Amazon.com. I limited my search to books published in the last few years and ranked them by customer satisfaction and chose one near the top. And then I made myself go through reading these books and doing the exercises at the end of the chapters. This was very very boring but I made myself do it. Then I created a few Joomla websites for local small businesses for free.
And then, after 6 months of unemployment, I had made myself employable again. I saw a job ad that I was now now barely qualified for, applied, and was hired to maintain a legacy Joomla website. Was it a glam job? No, but it was somewhere to start. And the rest is history. I do think if I found myself unemployable again I could repeat the process and figure out what is being asked for these days and learn that.
I haven't done a study of it lately but I would guess almost any kind of expertise in a major JavaScript framework like Angular, Ember, or React/Flux might get you a remote job fairly easily, as there are very few experts in this and many companies seem to want it. Also most developers don't want to do front-end/JavaScript stuff like that so there is less competition. That's where I'd start looking anyway.
by duggan on 8/3/15, 12:26 PM
This sentiment regularly comes up on HN, and I find it a little exasperating. Human interaction has always been an important part of career.
There's a subtle (or not so subtle) contempt for soft skills in these laments. You can write code and have fun, but if you want to get paid for it that's a career. As part of this career, you will produce software as a byproduct. However, the primary purpose of this career is solving problems.
You work in the sales department of your own career. Sell your ability to solve problems. Do not sell bits.
by jcadam on 8/3/15, 12:51 PM
Every couple of years (ok, at least every year) I'll try to apply to non-defense jobs, and I get the impression that there's a glut of highly qualified engineers in the private sector -- "Sorry, we're being deluged with applications right now, we'll totally get back to you someday." And the interviews generally involve 3-4 rounds of hazing via Knuth. In the defense sector, they verify your clearance and credentials, check for a pulse, then show you to your desk.
Some are interested until they hear my current salary "You'd have to be a 10x RockNinja to make that kind of salary here." Yes, even Silicon Valley companies (and I live in an area with a relatively low COL). I'd love to find a remote job, but those seem to be even more competitive (understandable, I suppose).
Guess I'm stuck.
by cmdkeen on 8/3/15, 11:50 AM
The OP might well have lots of relevant experience but it hardly comes across in the post. Neither does any appreciation, or indeed even an active lack of appreciation, that "knowing people" is the way to break through the HR process. After 20+ years in development there's a degree of expectation that you have built bridges along the way with people who can recommend you - because they want to work with you again. Because that's the flip side of being the experienced hire, you need to have the soft skills to utilise that experience - be it coaching and mentoring, writing well, negotiating and influencing etc.
by mike-cardwell on 8/3/15, 12:47 PM
by gexla on 8/3/15, 12:37 PM
Dude, just get out and actually talk to women.
I'm not going to say how to get gigs, jobs, etc because I'm out of my league with the great people who post here. But whenever I see a post like yours, I see a lack of creativity and human contact.
I understand that you probably get tunnel vision from the stress. But try different things and different approaches. Try to get to know people. Get involved in different developer ecosystems. Talk to real people. Or get someone to talk to real time if not in person. Get that human touch going.
I like James Altucher's idea of list building. Brainstorm a list of different approaches you could take to land different work. Brainstorm other types of work that you could do. Brainstorm a list of side-gigs you could work on. Brainstorm anything, just to get that idea creation machine going.
You got lost somewhere by being the same for X years. What you need is chaos. You need to shake things up. Routine is good for the things you don't want to spend a lot of cognitive overhead (bedtime, eating, etc) on so that you can focus on creating explosive interactions in your mad scientist lab.
As a side note. Don't farm out your dev skills for less than a solid professional rate. Lowering the value that you get for your skills is a rabbit hole. No matter how far you go down that hole, there is still room for people to devalue you. They try to get the work cheaper, they complain about what you do. You could pay them for the opportunity to work for them and it would still be ugly. Better to take a minimum wage job than to farm your dev skills at less than a solid professional rate. Better to be a starving artist waiting tables than to cheapen your artistic skills by selling them to people who don't value them.
by iovar on 8/3/15, 11:47 AM
If within a year you made only a thousand dollars, why didn't you spend more time working on a side project, or sharpening your skills? Maybe the ones you currently have are not much in demand?
Also, freelancing sites do have a lot of low quality jobs, but if you spend some time digging around you can find decent jobs; e.g. I, a poor country resident, have found jobs that made me in a week as much as you claim to have made within the year.
And btw, I'm thirty-something, university drop-out and with a couple of huge holes in my CV. But that's not what I bring forward when asking for a job. Instead I project the most confident image that I have for myself and that's my advice to you, too (i.e. don't focus on the negativity of your current situation, it's not going to help you find a job).
by Udo on 8/3/15, 11:52 AM
In this context I have to say though that the HN freelancer thread, while yielding uneven results, has mostly been very good to me. (YMMV)
The deeper problem as far as the actual hiring process is concerned, however, might be - as hinted at in the article - the amount of work and hoop-jumping necessary just to earn the privilege of showing up for work. I found this astonishing, too, especially given the fact that most programming positions probably have a high turnover rate, and I believe it does have to do with hundreds of applicants showing up for a single position. The ensuing filter process is not only a drain on the applicants, but also on the companies that are paralyzed with making this decision.
I believe the mere existence of TripleByte and SmartHires shows over-supply is a problem, and it's underscored by the fact that they have no problems turning people away.
by edw519 on 8/3/15, 11:54 AM
It's not about you. It's about your user and what they accomplish with the tools you build for them.
It doesn't matter who you are, what you know, what education you have, where you've worked before, what turns you on, or what you think is cool. It only matters what you can do for others.
It's really that fucking simple.
So forget about all the window dressing and find a way to demonstrate to others what you can do for them. The first step is to find out what they really need.
Like many others here, I am self taught, pretty decent, and love what I do. But the thing that has always separated me from other just as capable but "umemployable" programmers has been my absolute resolve to program for others, not myself.
I even remember one interview when I didn't present a resume, but instead a one-page project plan itemizing exactly what I would build over the next 90 days to help them solve their problem. I got the job instantly. (An extreme example, but you get the idea.)
I have never lacked work. And I'm confident I never will with this attitude. Try it, please.
by strathmeyer on 8/3/15, 2:28 PM
The worst thing about all of this is how harsh and degrading everyone is when you want to get into the industry. Questions are met with disgust derision, as if you are spoiling everyone's worldview. But I am just trying to describe my experience for survival reasons.
by orthoganol on 8/3/15, 11:51 AM
I have a difficult time believing this. I've worked for & know of companies through connections that care 10x more about your portfolio than degree. We've passed on Stanford grads & even a guy who worked at NASA, because they just couldn't physically bring themselves to code when we needed them too, they couldn't sit in front of a computer & actually build out a test feature despite loving to talk intelligently about the problem. It's not nerves... Degrees/ credentials can create these terrible comfort bubbles that prevent programmers from actually diving in & being productive. When you've been around enough it's easy to spot this type.
In my experience, portfolio is the #1 factor, and I think most companies would take you seriously if you have one w/ at least a couple full, impressive projects.
by NumberSix on 8/3/15, 4:57 PM
Not everyone does it. Not every company that does it does it consistently. It is largely subconscious. Technical or "cultural fit" excuses are typically cited to explain and justify the rejection of the taboo candidate.
There are a number of non-technical criterion that frequently push genuinely qualified, competent, indeed exceptional candidates into the "not qualified" category. These include:
o Over thirty-five
o Looks over thirty-five (worse)
o White or gray hair (even worse)
o Has a Ph.D.
o A new or recent (within 2 years) Ph.D. (worse)
o Lack of a college degree
o Identifiable membership in certain low status minority groups, notably African-American or someone with a Spanish surname and visible American Indian ancestry
o Female
o Over ten years of purely technical experience regardless of age.
o Less than three years of paid professional experience (working for a University or government research lab often does not count)
o Expresses skepticism of a currently popular fad in programming
o Obviously knows more or is smarter or both than the people conducting the technical interview.
o Just plain different from the dominant group at the potential employer is some visible way.
o A long recent period of unemployment (over six months, probably over three months)
By his own account, the OP lacks a formal college degree and is well over 35.
by amm on 8/3/15, 12:22 PM
Your network, on the other hand, becomes more important as you get older. Hiring an unknown person in his/her 40s or 50s has a much lower risk/reward ratio than hiring a random developer in his 20s who will a) do whatever you tell him without questioning anything b) work himself to death and c) work for almost no compensation.
Stay away from oDesk and online freelancing in general. Most of what's outsourced online is low skill, low risk and low reward work (landing pages, analytics integration, etc). Almost everyone can do it, so suddenly you're competing with everyone on the planet instead of just a couple of 100-1000 freelancers in your city. One of your biggest advantages over 2nd/3rd world freelancers is your location, language proficiency and cultural background. Use it to your advantage.
Also, hiring is really tricky. No one has really figured out how to do it right and so you have these hiring rituals with IQ tests, personality tests, weird screening procedures etc. In the end no one wins, because interviewees have gotten insanely good at playing the hiring game and employers have become overly careful just not to hire a random guy who will mess up their code base in 6 months and then leave for the next gig.
My personal advice to the OP: if there are tech/startup/... meetups in your region, go there. It's a good starting point and it's fun most of the time! You can get to know some interesting people and that might open some doors!
Best of luck, if you're reading this!
by victorvation on 8/3/15, 2:36 PM
It's odd that the author seems convinced that they are more productive than 'hipster rockstar programmers' who aren't motivated and don't get stuff done. Isn't that what they do by definition? And what's truly strange is how he seems to think that those types of people don't "eat and breathe code", when the prevailing sentiment on HN is that these 'rockstars' have poor work-life balance and don't do anything except code on evenings/weekends. It feels like he's lashing out at 'young people' in general who seem to be able to get jobs.
I seems that the author's lack of success obtaining a job stems directly from a lack of effort - or knowledge of how much effort is required. He seems to think he is entitled a job just because he's been doing it since he was a kid or because he's had a job for ten years.
I can say from experience as someone who was looking for a development job with no experience, much more is needed than passively posting on a job board, listlessly browsing oDesk, or even sending out a few resumes. Every intern hiring season, my classmates all end up disappearing from class and social life for a few weeks - sending out hundreds of resumes and applications, dozens of emails (cold or introductions), spending hundreds of hours studying for interviews, tens of interviews - pounding the proverbial, virtual, and literal pavement - resulting in most of us receiving one or (more often) multiple job offers.
by smoyer on 8/3/15, 11:18 AM
Care to e-mail me a CV?
by igth on 8/3/15, 12:23 PM
What I don't have is a college education. I'm also in my mid thirties, don't really have any US contacts, nor do I know very much about the job market there. Throw in some impostor syndrome and stuff like this creates a certain level of anxiety, to put it mildly.
by segmondy on 8/3/15, 2:32 PM
Most cannot tell the difference between private and protected.
Most have no idea what an abstract class is or a static variable. Let's not even talk about an interface.
The vast majority have no idea what transactions are.
These are stupid basic things. I don't ask any library or framework questions. I stick to the basics, to the core language. It's the most depressing thing ever. I don't even go into language specific details.
I understand why there are so many unemployable programmers. They let themselves rot. :-(
by magicbuzz on 8/3/15, 12:24 PM
by alkonaut on 8/3/15, 11:54 AM
There are "unemployable" developers out there, but they are 10-20 years older and have 15 years of niche in-house platforms in some huge enterprise, and now they have no experience with anything anyone recognizes.
Unemployable because just 1 company on CV, no degree and around 40? Sounds strange.
by rm_-rf_slash on 8/3/15, 1:43 PM
1: We expect everything to be perfectly packaged and ready to go, including people. We aren't interested in investing in people. A cog is a cog.
2: Older programmers are more expensive (see: skilled), and are more likely to have families or obligations that prevent their hustle (see: working bullshit hours for free).
by jacquesm on 8/3/15, 11:55 AM
by robodale on 8/3/15, 2:05 PM
I've got a Mechanical Engineering and Masters degree, 14 years dev experience on multiple stacks, so that does help my resume look nice, but shit man. Businesses are dying looking for qualified people.
by golergka on 8/3/15, 12:47 PM
So, this is the reason why no one will hire you? I find it hard to believe. The current company I'm working in found out that I don't have a degree after I signed the contract — they just didn't care at all.
But I would have huge problems hiring someone spent last 10 years responding to emails and doing nothing.
Judging by how easily you dismiss advice about github, you must have tried it. Care to give a link?
by mpermar on 8/3/15, 12:28 PM
Come on. We are so lucky we did choose technology as a way of living. Sorry but stop complaining and start learning back new stuff. Can't believe what someone has to read.
-- A developer in his forties.
by teyc on 8/3/15, 12:11 PM
by websitescenes on 8/3/15, 11:32 AM
by kfk on 8/3/15, 3:15 PM
There is a lot of survival bias. So far, I did not hear any salary higher than 50k euro from face to face talk in Germany (mine is higher, with no coding job). Thus, I am also not clear how real is to have one of those $100k+ salaries just doing "normal" coding (no managerial stuff). If that were possible and achievable even in a 3 years span, I'd definitely jump into it, but reality tells me it's not. At least out of the tech hubs (SV, etc.), but then the 0.1% thing kicks in, so you have a 99.9% chance of not getting any of those jobs, while you have plenty of opportunity to get a steady carrier just where you are.
And finally, programming will go through some kind of "commoditization", it's already happening. It might be good to "only" be coding today, but 10 years from now, older and with kids (so no possibility to work week ends anymore), this will probably not be enough and will move you more towards the unemployable zone.
Just some thoughts from an ex-wannabe programmer.
by bikamonki on 8/3/15, 12:27 PM
by planetjones on 8/3/15, 11:42 AM
by alistproducer2 on 8/3/15, 6:59 PM
I've interviewed with a couple companies just to see what it's like out there. I usually ask for some ridiculous salary b/c that's the only way I would leave my current job.
I find the interviewing process stupid. I had one company ask me to code up a fully functioning Angular site from scratch in some jsfiddle clone that I had never seen in 1 hour. It took me around 5-7 minutes just figuring how to work with the fiddle clone.
All the while I went in there as a guy who had written a pretty good Angular JS clone from scratch - recursive compiler and all. You would think that would be proof enough that I am pretty good at JS/front end dev. I just laugh at these interviews.
by dutchbrit on 8/3/15, 11:20 AM
by balozi on 8/3/15, 5:55 PM
by kiloreux on 8/3/15, 11:46 AM
by informatimago on 8/3/15, 11:19 AM
by abalashov on 8/3/15, 11:36 AM
http://www.likewise.am/2015/07/too-cool-for-school-a-retrosp...
by jqm on 8/3/15, 2:51 PM
I don't think BS is going to help. So here are a couple of options. If you really want to do startups and glam and make hundreds of thousands... you'll have to learn how to program in modern ways. It's going to take some time and effort. And you will have to build some real stuff. You might not have the time.. you are in your 40's, and you might not have the real desire to put in the effort. It's not you can't do this, you probably can but it's going to be difficult and take some real desire and most important some time and a lot of effort.
Here is another option that might be a better one. Go back to a BigCo. You have a history of job stability. You know about BigCo ways of doing things. You are good with computers. Get a certificate or two if you need to. It's not a million dollars but given the required effort, the pay is pretty decent for sitting at a desk. Forget about the 100K+ salaries you see bandied around. That's for something else.
by svisser on 8/3/15, 12:12 PM
That sums it up.
by alexdowad on 8/3/15, 5:44 PM
Yes, there are plenty of "lowest-wage programmers" on those sites. I never bothered to compete with them on price. I simply charged what I thought I was worth, and ratcheted my price up and up as I discovered that the market thought differently. Interestingly, as my price went higher and higher, the constant noise of "crappy" job offers quieted down and was replaced by a small number of great offers.
by k__ on 8/3/15, 12:49 PM
If I wouldn't have had a job as a programmer on the side (first a few months as intern) while studying, I wouldn't know much about programming.
by je_bailey on 8/3/15, 2:03 PM
Anecdotal story: I found myself working at a warranty company and a friend of mine worked at a specialized software company. We got together one day for drinks and lamented the fact that we had problems finding the right people. His problem was that everyone who applied was fresh out of college and had no true hands on experience, where he wanted senior programmers. My problem was that everyone who applied had a Masters or Doctorate degree and was applying for mid level/entry position.
If you're finding yourself unemployable in a particular area, you're probably right. More than likely though, you could find an excellent job at a company that isn't directly a traditional tech company. Every company in the world now needs to have an IT strategy of some sort. With an IT department of some sort. And I can guarantee that there are enough out there who are just looking for experience that they would hire you on the spot. The problem though is reaching out and finding them.
by aembleton on 8/3/15, 12:14 PM
We're trying to recruit a devops with AWS experience. We really don't care about which uni you went to or didn't go to.
Probably no good for you as we're in Manchester, UK but I don't think we're that unique.
by zamalek on 8/3/15, 11:47 AM
Show to them why you are a worthwhile risk instead of showing them that you are more of a risk than you are.
by geff82 on 8/3/15, 3:24 PM
by robotkilla on 8/3/15, 12:40 PM
I don't have time to type up my whole story, and a lot of it is in my comment history, but the gist is:
I started programming with BASIC and later QBASIC. Self taught, no degree. Video games / text adventure games were my thing. Later fell into web dev and loved it... until I got further along in my career and was entangled in some really vicious office politics. I also suffered from untreated depression for years (which I have now managed to get under control). Those things combined with some really stressful personal family issues coalesced into a nervous breakdown of sorts and I holed up in my house.
I haven't had a fulltime job in 4 years - I just contract remotely. Almost everything I've done has been through recommendations which is really the only way to go when contracting. I've had multiple clients whom I've never seen - just spoke to on the phone for a few minutes and then slack / email for the rest of the contract. Sometimes this works out well, sometimes it doesn't. I only made $30k last year and it was very spread out - there was at least a full week where the only food in the house were biscuits made with water. This year has been better thankfully.
Contracting is not my end goal - independent video game development is. At the end of the day I don't care about the money all that much. If magical riches await me in the future then I will accept them with open arms of course - but I'm only seeking enough to survive. I care about making things - I really don't want to go implementing the ideas of clients. I always fancied myself a creator and need to find a way to make my projects profitable so that I can find self-fulfillment through the things I create.
So, in addition to contracting for these last 4 years I've spent the vast majority of my free time improving my skill set (improved my python, dabbled with node, started building "modern" websites - SASS, Bower, Gulp etc).
I also started teaching myself how to make 3d games using Unity and c# (in case you're wondering, I'm creating my own assets, not purchasing them - and I have almost zero interest in creating mobile games). My girlfriend teamed up with me, started teaching herself 3d art and has already produced some pretty impressive models for the game we are working on.
I'm very interested in teaming up with a programmer similar to myself, or perhaps a group of similar programmers.
Edit: left out some words
by joeax on 8/3/15, 3:40 PM
The benefits are plentiful. I've learned more about JavaScript that I thought possible. It also demonstrates you have a passion for technology and it's just not a job. You have the satisfaction that are helping others solve technological challenges. If anything, you are more marketable which is the point of that article. Good recruiters and hiring managers look beyond your resume and looks for way that you standout.
by Negative1 on 8/3/15, 1:35 PM
A degree doesn't show how smart you are, it shows you have the ability to get things done (or at least show up and do your work). But guess what? So does shipping real products.
Best of luck, UP. You seem like a smart guy so keep up the perseverance and get more stuff on that resume!
by doktrin on 8/3/15, 2:48 PM
by jondubois on 8/3/15, 3:23 PM
Unfortunately, people who had a really tough career like the author often tend to lack enthusiasm (which is understandable) - It's one of life's vicious cycles and it's almost impossible to get out of.
You just have to hustle. Try a lot of different things and make yourself known to as many people as possible - It's all about odds. If you find a way to spam out your resume to thousands of potential employers, you're bound to get some responses.
by jokoon on 8/3/15, 3:46 PM
Going mainstream implies major changes, which are not technological, but still exclude many players because big corporate players bring immense business differences.
To be honest, skill and intelligence never mattered when it's about success. Humans want to be happy, technological progress interests nobody. That's where the "overskilled" comes from.
by ilikerashers on 8/3/15, 12:22 PM
The demand for programming skills varies across locations, skills and age. Certainly you can be an unemployed programmer but adjusting locations/skills can greatly improve circumstances. ODesk/Freelancer gives you very little control over demand and hence, you are just a commodity. I've yet to see anyone doing well out of it from a contractor side but plenty of people doing well who need cheap contractors fast.
Understand the market or someone who does will take advantage of you...
by yaur on 8/3/15, 3:26 PM
by FranOntanaya on 8/3/15, 11:36 AM
by speeder on 8/3/15, 12:45 PM
I got my degree in 2009, at the height of the crisis (for now at least... here in Brazil the crisis of 2009 is finally getting worse), I NEVER had a legal job, all the stuff I put in LinkedIn were semi-legal or outright illegal stuff (or my startup).
Also my programming language of choice were clearly a poor choice, I learned C, and C++ and whatnot when I was a kid (I was 6 when I started to learn coding), those are clearly mostly useless now.
by stkni on 8/3/15, 11:46 AM
The OP was a little bit light on details of the exact work under-taken at the 'company' but I'm guessing it wouldn't be interesting enough to pass the sift of most recruiters.
That's tough but with Open source you could get involved in anything you felt like, make a contribution, get recognition and reboot/re-skill that way?
Still, it's not an easy or quick solution though and YMMV.
by brador on 8/3/15, 11:57 AM
by joeax on 8/3/15, 3:23 PM
by supercanuck on 8/3/15, 3:41 PM
Seems like employers would rather just hire a H1-B from TCS instead because then they know are tied to them via the H1-B, whereas a mediocre programmer who is trained up would become a better programmer and might leave once they are good at their salary doesn't commensurate?
by rrss1122 on 8/3/15, 3:19 PM
by erikb on 8/3/15, 1:06 PM
by Sir_Cmpwn on 8/3/15, 11:41 AM
by skaplun on 8/3/15, 2:54 PM
by doridori on 8/3/15, 12:45 PM
by johanneskanybal on 8/3/15, 1:16 PM
by intrasight on 8/3/15, 3:05 PM
by aembleton on 8/3/15, 12:09 PM
by RaskalFloots on 8/3/15, 1:41 PM
by gregjor on 8/3/15, 12:31 PM
Your age, the buzzwords ("skill sets") on your CV, lack of college degree, possibly lack of recent relevant experience -- all of those can be negatives and will keep you out of a lot of jobs. So don't try to get those. You can't fight prejudices or stupid hiring processes.
You have to present yourself as someone who can solve business problems, because that's what companies actually hire and pay for. No matter what the job posting says no company or client actually needs a PHP or Ruby programmer. What they need is someone who can translate business requirements into working software. Get the focus on your ability to deliver.
When I talk to a potential client I start by asking them to tell me their top handful of business problems or pains. I pick one that I think I can help with and talk about that. We almost never get into technology or languages because those are incidental to actual business requirements. Many business problems are not actually programming problems. Just because a client has 300,000 lines of Ruby code I don't need to write Ruby to help them with their PCI compliance audit (real client). Another client had an enterprise logistics system written in Java, but that had very little to do with shipping charges calculating wrong -- I don't have to be a Java guru to figure it out. The problem was fixed with almost no programming, just correcting some data that was formatted wrong between systems.
My point is that you need to present an appealing package with some obvious business value to the client or employer. You don't choose a car based on a list of the parts in it (CV), you choose it based on perceived value, appearance, and emotional appeal.
Instead of applying for every job and putting yourself on job sites and scraping the bottom of the freelancing barrel on Fiverr develop a few skills you are really good at and sell that expertise. Identify companies or business niches you want to work at and knock their door down. Make the deal low-risk: I don't charge clients if I can't fix their problems.
Meet more people. Most people get their jobs from contacts, friends, even casual acquaintances -- I got a job lead from a guy at a bar in LA after we started talking about bourbon. Get out in the world. Don't treat everyone you meet like another node in your network, though. People like to help friends and people they like, so be the guy people like. People don't like to help the constant network-builders.
I'm not saying it's easy, but you need to play a different game, because a programmer in his 40s without a lot of recent relevant experience with the latest toys is not going to stand out. Sorry, but no one cares about your startup experience or what you did five years ago. They care about what you can do for them right now, so focus on that and don't get bogged down trying to win the recruiting numbers game.
by mratzloff on 8/3/15, 3:14 PM
by wnevets on 8/3/15, 2:30 PM
by sebringj on 8/3/15, 6:04 PM
by devcis on 8/3/15, 2:55 PM
Programming is seen as the silver bullet to solve employment in many countries resulting in you competing against a whole continent with a 100 million IT pros, all super smart foreign students who studied in the US, thousands of school leaving kids wanting to become programmers because they grew up playing games or owning laptops/iPads/smartphones and programming is made a core skill in schools. They're even teaching programming in prisons. With all the free online courses and code schools there isn’t a barrier that stops anyone from becoming a programmer where as other industries have barriers of entry. If you are a tech professional, you're competing against the biggest pool of potential workers in the world all willing to do anything to get a foot in the door.
In my experience I find there is a huge ageism issue in the IT sector. At his age the author seems to be insinuating it's due to his lack of degree but I can safely say it's his age and not the degree. I find a manager in his early 30s late 20s won't hire a programmer older than him. Similarly a manager in his 40s won't hire a developer his same age. In applying for positions I find I can make it to the final interview but then it comes down to my age not making me the perfect fit. It's like the unasked question is why you haven’t made it and if you are still looking for a job at 40 so you must be damaged goods. The other big disadvantage in the tech sector is years and years of experience is not valued as it is in all other industries. At 40 the stigma of old tech being listed on your resume is seen as a negative rather than a positive. Fitting in with your co-workers is another big issue with hiring managers and HR and it seen as a risk that you won’t fit in with people 10 to 20 years younger than you.
When I complain to others I hear stories of someone who knows of x developer at 40 who still works as a developer but they’re obviously not starting from step 1 looking for a job so that comparison I always find stupid.
I do agree with other posts that networking is the problem as 90% of job are not on job boards. However as a programmer I find networking is hard because you are focusing on completing x feature/project and generally want to work uninterrupted for long stretches rather than spending time at sucking up to a manager or co-worker that might help you in the future. Also I find unless you have something that someone wants I find networking at 40 is difficult because people generally don’t want to network with you.
The lessons I’ve learnt are primarily the entitlement that I felt x years ago is something I have to get rid of very quickly. I’ve always thought if you give me problems and I always solve it that means I am special. However I realize I’m just like the other billion wannabes with the huge disadvantage of my age. I feel like I have to work 10 times harder now that I’ve been given the scarlet letter of age to wear around my neck. That said knowing the problem is the first step to solving it so I can at least be optimistic.
My advice. Understand you always have to learn and have to solve the networking/self marketing problem. Try to have a purpose even if it’s just a dream of a purpose. Even if have to take up a non IT job full-time because of your situation you can always code part time. With a strong base and today’s ease of access to information, picking up new language is surprisingly easy.
by Ologn on 8/3/15, 3:58 PM
That aside, I think you can still get work. You just sound discouraged after the rejection and sound like you are beginning to think a little fatalistically. Yes, not having a CS degree hurts you and yes, being at one company for over a decade slightly hurts you (not that much though) and yes, being in your early forties also hurts you. You don't say whether you're working that full-time decade long job any more (or maybe I missed it), if you were laid off, that also will hurt you more than if you're still working there, companies prefer hiring people already employed. You are over-discouraged though, you can still get work in this market.
You talk about going through many hoops, talking to many people, and a lot of weight given to college. Which sounds like a lot of applications to big companies. Only a big company could spend so much effort on each person, put a lot of weight on official credentials etc. So one thing to do is - don't just apply to big companies! Apply to small and medium sized companies as well. They often don't worry about college degrees as much, you're often talking directly to the decision makers right away, if they like you they often have the authority to hire you. Applying for big companies is fine, but mix it up a little.
Another thing - you say companies are interviewing dozens of people for each position. OK. What is going to put you over the top? The answer is different in different situations. From small to big companies the answer is usually technical and personal. For technical - picture the people interviewing as being a Gaussian curve with a normal distribution - the x-axis is how technically good you are, the y-axis is how many people reach that level. Where do you have to be on that curve? If a friend is bringing you into the company, you have to be in the middle or better. If you are going into a company cold, you have to be (if you're having trouble like you are) one standard deviation above the mean in terms of ability. If you're two standards above the mean, then you should be having no trouble.
What you have to realize is most people are in the middle of that bell curve. Most Javascript programmers can tell you what data types in Javascript are, what the "this" keyword is etc. You probably can as well. But if you start digging deeper into how well they know Javascript or frameworks their knowledge is not that deep, and they start mumbling the answers. The average Javascript programmer with your experience have an almost interchangeable amount of knowledge - they all have the same level of depth. But every dozen interviews or so you get someone who really knows Javascript and certain frameworks backwards and forwards. People who know more than you. When you are interviewed, you should write down the answers afterwards and honestly ask yourself if you explained things clearly and in depth. Honestly, you should be able to knock every question you are asked out of the park with a very in-depth and clear answer. Because there are people who are being interviewed who can do this. Giving some sort of half-answer where I know you know it a little, and then missing a few questions doesn't cut it - because most other Javascript programmers with your experience can do the same. Knowing this cold is what puts you above the pack.
Insofar as personality - it depends on the company, the people and how badly they need someone. Most of the time, if your technical skills are one standard deviation above the norm, and your personality is normal, we usually offer the job. I've interviewed people with very strong technical skills but their social skills were not just slightly poor but very poor. They continued answering questions after being told several times that their answer was sufficient, and continued talking even after being told "OK, stop talking"! (obviously things had become a little bizarre on their end when we the interviewers felt we had to tell someone "stop talking" - which they ignored, and continued talking!) Or people who were great technically but seemed very angry and had their arms folded in front of their chest the entire interview, and made a kind of sarcastic grunt after each question. Actually I would have even hired that person, but my boss torpedoed him and I wasn't surprised. I mean, I myself have made a faux pas when I have gone on an interview - but at least I knew from the interviewer's reaction that I had made one! Some people seem oblivious.
Another thing - just hit up everywhere. Put your resume on Linkedin, look on Stackoverflow careers, Craigslist jobs board, angel.co jobs, whatever people do in Europe (and also look for remote Javascript positions in San Francisco and elsewhere). Jobs aren't always posted everywhere - if there is a Javascript meetup or jQuery meetup in, say, Berlin, their mailing list might have job postings you can't find elsewhere. See where people are meeting up in your city, or nearby cities, to talk about jQuery or Javascript or full stack web development. Go out, talk to people. Pass out your business card. If you don't have one, make one, they're not expensive, you can make them same day if necessary at some local print shops. Your best resource is often letting programmers you already know know you're on the market. Some of this is for future reference though - one reason it's good to keep in touch with people once in a while is so you're not only contacting them when you want a favor. Not that them possibly getting a referral bonus for their big company hiring you is exactly that much of a favor.
For the longer term (not now), if you think not having a CS degree is blocking you, you might think about getting one, perhaps at night. It helps in a number of ways - human resources prefers hearing you're halfway to having a CS degree to not having one. It also gives you a technical foundation - you'll learn things like what is first normal form, second normal form, third normal form etc. are if you don't already know. Also you meet people and your network can grow - again, that depends on you meeting people and keeping in touch.
Another longer term thing - I am an Android programmer. Android was first released in 2008, but even in 2011 the local Android meetings were pretty empty - we could all sit down at a table in a local bar. Now local Android meetings sometimes have dozens, if not hundreds of attendees. I picked a new technology stack which took off (one billion Android phones sold last year). Lots of companies are looking for senior Android people with a lot of experience, but the only people they have to choose from are those handful people who were sitting around the local Android meetup table in 2011. Whereas Javascript is 20 years old and Javascript programmers are a bit more a dime a dozen. The thing though is - there are a lot of local programmers who write Java web backend programs (for Tomcat, or Wildfly/JBoss). They have a solid job, so why change. Over the past few years, web has been fading a little, and native iOS and Android have been rising. It is still to the extent that it is too early to put much weight to it. It's understandable why someone making $120k a year or more with a lot of Java web work around might not take the risk of jumping to an Android job. Why they wouldn't play around with it as a side project is more of a mystery - this is where they start to get into your situation. Because I can tell you, the middle-aged go-getter guys from our local Java group are always working with the cutting edge so they don't fall behind. They're working with Android Tango at the moment, which even I feel is too far ahead of the curve for me. Although maybe if I was smart I'd order those $500 tablets and start tinkering with them.
You were too complacent over the last decade - it should be obvious to you know. It's not fatal as times are good. When you get your next job, you have to make an effort to get a diploma, keep up with the latest technology, keep in touch with people and so forth, or you'll be in a worse situation next time around.
by brogrammer90 on 8/3/15, 1:21 PM
by vegabook on 8/3/15, 12:26 PM
I am in a similar situation to the OP having started off with a ZX Spectrum, did CS, coded, but in my late 20s I was tempted into fixed income finance, and did that for 15 years at the highest level (unrelated to coding - I was a strategist and trader). Then in my late 30s I picked up Python, then R, and now know both really well (plus C and a bit of JS, Ocaml). What I find in my interactions is that the whizz-bang programmer guys, who are better than me at coding (though not by much - I picked up again pretty fast), are completely useless at mapping their skills to the finance domain, while my knowledge of both fields is where my value lies. I would strongly suggest to programmers that they ensure they know a non-CS domain too, preferably a niche one (we're such a big world now), and know it well - practise it as a primary activity for a few years. Climb the learning curve again even if it's hard at first. It is in the nexus between CS and other domains that opportunities are still plentiful.
by anon4 on 8/3/15, 12:52 PM
Better yet, find some more people like you, as you're trying to do, and start a consulting company together. You could each use your connections to find work for the others, put in a bit of your profits towards upkeep of the company, grow your network and so on.
You may be unemployable if you put yourself in the same bucket as the recent college graduates, so make your own bucket.
by curiousjorge on 8/3/15, 4:23 PM
Since then I've been practically unemployable. It makes no sense if I could make an entire year's worth of salary after a few phone calls and a quick demo. The only downside to this is that you have a lot of idle time. Obviously you can't do sales 24/7 (I wish I could). I'm still trying to figure out how to best use my idle time instead of obsessively commenting on HN or Reddit or playing Counterstrike. Get out? Travel? I don't know yet.
You can do this too. You absolutely can. Don't sell yourself short so you could have a 'secure' job. Don't become a slave to appease others and censor yourself to keep a job. Your time is the single most valuable asset in your life. DO NOT SELL IT FOR CHEAP. Control your destiny. This is capitalism. This is North America.
I had too much coffee, I'm out. mic drop
TL;DR: Get your money's worth. Don't waste time applying and going to interviews for a 9-5. It's not for you.
by s73v3r on 8/3/15, 6:15 PM
I really hate this characterization. Are there people at the office like this? Of course. But there are also plenty of offices that have people like this. They just have their own interests outside of the office job that they like to spend their time on.
by notNow on 8/3/15, 12:57 PM
Have you tried any of the following alternative in your quest to land a job:
1- Theme marketplaces like Envato.
The competition is really fierce but you could make it and establish a name and sharpen your skills and be up to date when the latest trends and movements in our profession.
2- Kickstarter campaign to crowd-fund a technical project that you're passionate about to showcase your technical skills and expertise and as an opportunity for you to reboot your career.
by forloop on 8/3/15, 1:09 PM
by GFK_of_xmaspast on 8/3/15, 12:05 PM
by zxcvvcxz on 8/3/15, 4:21 PM
> As a final station, I'd like to describe what online freelancer markets look like for people like me. On freelancer.com and oDesk, you compete with hundreds of lowest-wage programmers from third world countries for exceedingly crappy "projects". It's an unmitigated race to the bottom.
Why does the OP feel entitled to not have to compete with others? Why should he be given a "not crappy" job? Because you were born in the US?
Fuck that attitude. Here's what happened. The OP stagnated, and other parts of the world didn't. Being from a first world country does not make you special. And it no longer shields you from the brutal realities that most of the world goes through with respect to human competition.
> Maybe even more alarming, the nature of these jobs has changed, too. A year ago, you could sell some landing pages and some basic web programming. Today, almost every inquiry you get is for some illicit script to scrape social media sites.
Yes, the world moves on, the nature of work changes, and things that were valuable 10 years ago become commodities. Being a programmer means being able to program many different things; you know how demands are changing, so either adapt or die. Or switch what field you work in. Construction workers can get $35 an hour, and it's better for your body.
> I feel obsolete, and I'm afraid it's starting to show outwardly.
Woe is me.
> While I was asleep at the wheel during my generic office job, the world moved on without me.
So what are you going to do about it?
> Being able to get work in this field without a fancy background is still possible, but only if you have the right connections.
So work at making those connections.
> Personally, I will just keep looking. Maybe something will turn up.
No, don't do that, it's the same shit that isn't working for you. Go to some meetups, conferences, hackathons, etc. Take a part-time job doing something else to be able to afford the time to build the connections you see as being so important. Buy books and read tutorials (and build side projects) regarding new technologies you want/need to learn. Hey I'm not saying this is the best plan, but any plan is better than no plan.
Or are "connections" your way of excusing your ego for slumping in life? I can blame others for having good genetics all day long, but I'm still going to go to the gym to improve my physique.
---
Be proactive when shit hits the fan, when you miss out, when you make mistakes. There is no alternative.
by kagamine on 8/3/15, 11:57 AM
Not saying you should fake it, I'm saying employers need to stop thinking donuts can't be iced by anyone with less than a masters degree. I've seen a masters grad unable to get through a door that had a security card swipe thing because there were no instructions, even though she had the card in her hand. Sometimes a course isn't what's needed to get a job done.
by matwood on 8/3/15, 1:24 PM
I had another job where I learned a lot, but after a couple years the job became repetitive with no further learning opportunities. At that point it was time to leave, because if you are not moving forward you are moving backwards.
People need to take control of their own careers.