from Hacker News

Don't call yourself a programmer (2011)

by jrslv on 2/7/15, 8:14 PM with 84 comments

• by ffn on 2/7/15, 9:51 PM

  Most of what Patrick (the writer) says is decent advice, and yes, it is important to publish your hobby junk, get feedback, go to meetups, and generally involve oneself into the community as it is not only helpful to one's career, but also fun.

  That being said, I don't particularly agree on the "don't be modest" comment. Rather, it really should be "don't be ashamed of what you build" (with the caveat of no matter how shameful it is), that is, openly show people (both online and in real life) what you've built, the problems you're encountering, the solutions you've come up with, etc.

  That is, proudly say to them "Hey, check this out, I built X, it's a Y, and I think it's great... but let me know what you think and don't be afraid of hurting my feelings."

  And whether they reply with "Hey, you're right, it's great! Here's Z dollars for your startup", or (if you're testing on 4chan as I do) they say "OP, you suck, why does your site need this much JS? Go die in a fire, you worthless cuck", be modest and meek with your reply. Thank them for their input, actually consider the merit of what they're saying, don't get emotionally flustered or discouraged, and continue bumping your thread / iterating.

  So I guess it's this really weird and almost conflicting mindset one has to be to have a good career experience; one needs to be proud and shameless about one's self and work, yet modest and meek when it comes to its reception and feedback.

• by napoleond on 2/7/15, 10:04 PM

  Discussion around the use of the word "engineer" is unfortunate, and seems to be missing the point. FWIW, I am an electrical engineer (degree, ring, the whole enchilada) and have the same conditioned reflex toward hearing the word "engineer" applied casually, but:

  (a) My school didn't offer a software engineering degree. Very few in Canada do.

  (b) The first electrical engineers (and mechanical engineers, and civil engineers) did not have degrees in that field--they invented it. The field of software engineering is still very new (especially compared to mech and civil), so it's not reasonable to expect everyone who practices it to have formal credentials.

  (c) Being a stickler about credentials is a stupid way to behave. Obviously, engineering credentials are important safeguards in many fields (someone needs to approve the bridge, airplane part, etc) but software doesn't have the same safeguards. (Whether it should or not is a completely different discussion.)

  (d) None of this is really what the article is about. It's simply saying that how we describe our profession is important. I work in software full-time nowadays, and although I still wear the ring I usually describe myself as a "software developer" when people ask. It doesn't matter though, because the next question is "what kind of software" and then I focus on the value of what my software does, relative to the person asking.

• by FLUX-YOU on 2/7/15, 10:26 PM

  >Engineers in particular are usually very highly paid Cost Centers, which sets MBA’s optimization antennae to twitching.

  How?! They delivered the product in the first place! There's a million idea guys looking for a Woz to their Jobs on Craigslist. How many Woz's do you see looking for their Jobs? CEOs are the damn cost center with their exobitant benefit package that still gets handed out even if they sink the company. Engineers add features and improve the workflow to make it easier to use. Engineers give Sales its ammo. Because it's not the actual engineer that's fired from the cannon means they're now a cost center?

  I don't understand this shit and from what I've seen on the business side (especially with how the south does business), I think I'd rather shoot myself with a cannon before spending 20 years doing what I'm doing now.

• by atarian on 2/7/15, 10:03 PM

  Personally, I prefer to call myself a developer around my computing peers. To the average layperson I call myself a programmer. But when I apply to a new company, I bust out all the fancy engineering titles my past employers have given me.

  But going back to the OT, I think Patrick is really talking about mindset. Basically don't sell yourself short.

• by Anderkent on 2/7/15, 9:34 PM

  Or, you know, don't play their game. You don't need to babble in politics, work in adversarial environments where 'someone is looking to get you fired', and deal with all the bullshit in OP. Find a small (10-20 people) software shop/consultancy, work on interesting problems, write good code, be free of all that shit.

• by k-mcgrady on 2/7/15, 9:54 PM

  Surprised at the elitism evident in many comments here. It's a title. Nothing more. A lot of people seem to be saying you must complete an engineering degree to call yourself an engineer - what if I learnt the same skills without paying extortionate fees and wasting a lot of my time for four years? It almost seems like people are trying to justify their time and money spent at University by claiming exclusivity on the engineering title.

  At the the end of the day it doesn't matter. The only people who really care about titles are hiring managers and people trying to get hired. Once you're in the job, as long as you have the skills nothing else matters.

  It seems like the debates around the use of the word hacker or startup. A waste of time.

• by bshimmin on 2/7/15, 9:23 PM

  Lots of great advice, and featured here at least five times previously. This submission has the most comments, I think: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3170766

• by thedufer on 2/7/15, 9:26 PM

  [2011] would be appropriate in the title.

• by ZanyProgrammer on 2/7/15, 9:31 PM

  Software engineering-the only Engineering field I know of where people professionally represent themselves as such without a four year degree with the word "engineering" in the title-hacking Linux and PHP since you were 15 seems to suffice.

• by auxym on 2/7/15, 10:06 PM

  I really enjoyed a couple of Patrick's posts on career advice, despite myself not working directly in the software industry. I was wondering, are any of you aware of similar bloggers/websites/books/whatever that have similar information, but more oriented towards other engineers?

• by jszymborski on 2/7/15, 10:06 PM

  If people who wrote code stopped calling themselves "artisans" as well, I'd be quite happy.

• by Killswitch on 2/7/15, 9:36 PM

  I call myself a certified web ninja.

• by rosstex on 2/7/15, 9:54 PM

  Welp, guess I'll go be a professor.

• by failed_ideas on 2/7/15, 9:49 PM

  I would recommend against this in Canada, as it's illegal.

• by xvirk on 2/7/15, 9:33 PM

  wasn't it posted 4 years ago ?

• by comrade1 on 2/7/15, 9:27 PM

  Please don't call yourself an engineer unless you've got the ring.