from Hacker News

Getting rid of burnout permanently

by kentnguyen on 8/4/14, 12:35 PM with 138 comments

by normloman on 8/4/14, 2:35 PM
Um... Not work so hard?
I'm not a programmer, so I'm viewing the stuff on hacker news from outside the bubble, so to speak. And from here, y'all look crazy. To the average person, spending extra hours at work with no overtime pay is absurd, but you all discuss it like it's no big deal.
Your industry needs a huge cultural overhaul. People must be trained not to accept burnout as normal.
by onion2k on 8/4/14, 1:48 PM
I agree with the majority of the article, but one thing leapt out - the first question that the author suggests might 'help you to pinpoint your resentment';
Why do you want to take a break, go on holiday? What are you really running away from?
Taking a break and going on holiday is not running away from things. Even if you're working on something that you absolutely love, with an amazing team of people, doing something that will change the world - it's still a good idea to take a break. Experiencing different cultures, seeing new things, getting out of your comfort zone, and looking at things from a different perspective is fantastically useful. It makes you see things differently. Going on holiday is a good thing in itself; it isn't merely a cure for the bad things.
by noir_lord on 8/4/14, 3:10 PM
Fantastic Article.
Three weeks ago I hit absolute rock bottom with exhaustion from working hard for the last 2 years (I worked out I've been working 70-80 hour weeks since Dev 2010 with 8 days off in 4 years).
I resolved to get my life sorted out, I cut back work hours drastically, started riding my bike more and went to the Doctors to get help with sleeping tablets and pain management (the last 3 months I've been waiting for a double wisdom extraction) and stopped trying to carry the world and it's problems on my shoulders.
Later that week I found in a fairly horrible way that my partner of 7 years had cheated on me and I threw her out.
I stuck with the resolution I'd made to keep changing my life.
Now I'm sat at work taking a break after writing some really nice code to handle a problem that had stumped me for a month, I'll pack up for the day in a couple of hours then I'm going home to have a shower and going out on my bike for a 45 mile ride then home, netflix documentary and sleep.
In the last month I nearly destroyed my business, my health and my wellbeing as well as losing a long term relationship and I'm happier today than I have been in 4 years.
I have off moments but I just remember how bad I felt when I was sat at 2am watching the moon wishing everything would end and that they will pass in time.
The anxiety attacks have just about gone completely and meditation seems to control the ones that I do get.
I've also realised that none of this stuff business, relationship or whatever is worth sacrificing my own long term happiness over, I was miserable for 4 years, no more.
by danielweber on 8/4/14, 1:41 PM
Some companies see their employees as orange trees that they need to keep healthy year after year.
Some companies see their employees as oranges they need to squeeze as much as possible.
by valevk on 8/4/14, 2:17 PM
In my opinion and unfortunately experience, burnout is tightly coupled with procrastination. Neither burnout, nor procrastination is classified as disease, though. It is known, that a burnout is a life-management difficulty. [1]
To get to my point, the whole burnout process starts with procrastinating. However, the sources for procrastination can be very different. This is where you should fight the problem. If you have depression, get help. If you are lazy, well that sucks. (Sounds easy, I know. It is not easy in real life, I know). But in the end, your own inaction is digging your grave.
It's not the break you need. You need a new approach to handling life. Handling life differently. If you keep "only" taking breaks, the burnout becomes a cycle, instead of a one-time exhaustion. And you will go throught this cycle often.
The fact that I'm writing this, instead of studing/working, shows that my procrastination problem continues to grow, and eventually enlarging the burnout on the horizon.
[1] http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/Z7...
by jimbokun on 8/4/14, 2:38 PM
"As a software developer, I’m passionate about writing codes and creating new things. However, as I also need to perform managerial duties, I had less and less time to do so. Repeatedly, I had to work for days without writing any useful code for the team, I became highly agitated."
It's surprising how hard it can be to find time to just write code, even with a full time job in software development.
Meetings. Email. Technical feasibility. Gathering requirements. Testing. Investigating bugs. Various forms of technical support. Architecture and design. Documentation. Time sheets. Reports. Fixing builds and managing dependencies.
All of these are good and important and necessary for any software product to succeed. But they call also really suck the passion and productivity out of a person.
by funkaster on 8/4/14, 1:46 PM
Here's a crazy idea: work less. Try first with a 40 hour week. Then 35. Just the 40 hour week could probably give you enough time to do other things you want. And make this mental note: if your business needs you constantly for more than 40 hours a week, you're doing something wrong. Your work should be your passion, but it shouldn't consume your life.
by gboudrias on 8/4/14, 1:31 PM
I'm pretty sure burnout is endemic to this industry, if not most of society. It's a good idea to be on the lookout. Don't underestimate the dangers of burning out (they may include losing your passion entirely).
Thanks for taking the time to write this article.
by stygiansonic on 8/4/14, 1:45 PM
The human body is generally well-adapted to maintaining homeostasis, in the absence of extreme illness and disease, i.e. feeling thirsty when you need fluids, hunger when you need calories and needing sleep when you're tired.
However, sometimes external and internal factors can cause us to ignore these basic needs/warning signs. The need to meet a deadline, the need to not let down your coworkers or the need to demonstrate "passions" for your line of work. The first two apply pretty much to any job nowadays, while the latter applies groups that are often expected to show a "portfolio" of their work, such as artists, musicians, graphic designers and increasingly, software developers.
All of these demands can easily lead to burnout and a lack of passion, not just tiredness. Feeling tired is one thing, as one usually ascribe that physical causes. But having a feeling of lacking passion can be soul-crushing, as it leads one to question whether one is in the right field of work. This is perhaps the one of the worst effects of burnout and must be avoided. Burnout is the cause and a lack of passion is merely a symptom.
Realizing there is much more to life than work-related goals, as the article suggests, is a good solution.
by amwelles on 8/4/14, 2:12 PM
The only way I've been able to avoid burnout is to be deeply involved in things outside of work. I work a 9-6 front-end development job, but I also teach people how to train their dogs once a week, I write creatively for my own purposes, and I teach coding classes a few times a year. By adding variety and focusing on a few things that are important to me, I don't get burnt out on any of them. It does mean that I'm busy, but I've never felt more stable than I do now. I think having those competing priorities helps me keep the balance that I need to avoid burnout.
by enraged_camel on 8/4/14, 3:37 PM
The author's theory is that burnout is caused by not doing the things one loves.
I have a different, albeit perhaps related theory: burnout is caused by not being able to get in the "flow" for extended periods of time.
I can relate to the author's example of having split duties involving coding and not coding, as I'm in the same boat. About half of my week involves developing my company's learning management system, and the other half involves going to meetings about various training activities that are hosted on the system. The latter part is what causes burnout, because the meetings are spread out through the day and totally disrupt my flow. No matter how hard I have tried, I haven't been able to block out large, uninterrupted chunks. As a result, I find myself in these situations where just as I'm about to get in the zone, I get a reminder that says "meeting in 15 minutes!"
It has reached a point where I started looking for other jobs. Anyone need a Rails developer? :(
by reitanqild on 8/4/14, 3:42 PM
Isn't burnout originally something way worse than exhausted and demotivated? Examples:
I burnt out once, it left me crying everytime I where alone and took me months to get through the first phase. Anything that reminded me about the old job, e.g. a faulty drive-train, could trigger stomach pain etc. It took 5 full years before I was really myself again even though I studied and had normal jobs during those years.
I have seen a couple of friends and colleagues go through the same. One of them was a promising technician who had to leave it.
Whenever I read articles like this I wonder if we are talking about the same kind of burnout? (And yes, English is not my first language.)
by swayvil on 8/4/14, 4:17 PM
I was writing code for this company. Had burnout. Couldn't concentrate. Like something was broken in my head. Tried. Couldn't. Stopped trying. Then tried some more. Then floated in a haze between trying and not-trying. Started having really bad dreams. Would wake up, run down the road freaked out. Hallucinating.
Quit my job of course. I'm not stupid.
by dsirijus on 8/4/14, 2:44 PM
> there were times when I got completely burnt out as often as once every few days
Hm, maybe we call two different things a burnout. I had it twice, one ending in a visit to ER, the other one blasting a single song at max volume for 20h then crying and trying to quit my job.
I don't think the author actually had one, at least not by my definition of it.
That aside, my main cause of burnouts was working extremely hard on something and not finishing it, for a long time. Or always going after a moving target. Management and goal setting issue, really, and easy one to solve - break huge goals into subgoals, or even - don't have big goals at all.
by cenhyperion on 8/4/14, 2:23 PM
I firmly believe that the reason most major religions standardized a sabbath day was for mental health reasons. There's a lot of value to taking a day for yourself in which you do no work.
Even if you love what you do, you can't do it for 10 hours every single day for years.
by cookiecaper on 8/4/14, 2:01 PM
I don't think this article really says anything that isn't obvious. We all know that serious cases of burnout happen because you don't like what you're doing. We all only have so much patience and tolerance for things we dislike. The answer is to stop doing things you don't like doing so much, and do things you do like doing more, and make this a permanent change, not just a two week break before you jump back into the things you hate; that may prolong your tolerance, but you'll eventually run out again. We have to find an equilibrium between the enjoyable and the necessary that allows us to be productive but doesn't make us hate our lives. That's no secret.
The problem is that most people don't have many options to change their situation in a significant way -- all they can do, if they're lucky, is take a short vacation and hope that re-energizes them enough to go into another grueling year without having a breakdown. Some of us have to try to manage a constantly ongoing breakdown without disrupting the work that brings in the bacon.
If your version of "burnout" is completely resolved by taking a vacation, you weren't burning out, you just needed a short break. In my mind, burnout refers to a larger state of mental exhaustion.
by moron4hire on 8/4/14, 3:45 PM
>> there were times when I got completely burnt out as often as once every few days.
That's not multiple burnouts. That's one burnout.
That's what burnout is like. It's not a complete inability to work. It's a lack of consistency. I think that's why so many people don't think to do anything about it. They think, "if I just quit being so lazy..." they could get everything done. Clearly, they're capable. And it is clearly not permanent. So the problem must be them, right?
Wrong. The problem with lack of consistency and reliability is a feedback loop. If you don't keep to regular, sustainable hours, your body will take up the deficit later. Your mean productivity is basically set, it's your standard deviation that you can control.
So, you either work really hard now and have everyone freak out that you're not being as productive as they've come to expect out of you. Or you just not establish an expectation of being hyperproductive in short bursts.
To overuse a metaphor: you don't win a marathon in the first 100 meters.
by phazmatis on 8/4/14, 4:00 PM
Interesting article. I think burnout can be caused by a number of things, but I don't think everyone has a different burnout trigger. When faced with non-ideal conditions/expectations, burnout is inevitable. Sone people can cope with different burnout causes better than others, but if, say, your work is soul-scorching then it'll eventually get to you.
by brador on 8/4/14, 2:50 PM
The simple truth is if you're pushing to excel in any competitive field you're gonna have to push yourself to the limit. That's why the startup game is push, make FU money and walk, not build a lifestyle business out of it, because by the time you're done there's nothing left. You've given it your all.
by AnonJ on 8/8/14, 2:46 PM
Personally I think he exactly hit the spot. A few years ago I regularly did things that I loved so I was achieving in various aspects and feeling happy although doing a lot. But later some interpersonal relationships went awry, the habit was broken and my life descended into a mess, without myself really realizing it. These two years I’ve been doing much less yet feeling much more burnt out and ineffective than I previously was, indeed because I have been kept from those regular things that I love for too long. Unfortunately I didn’t realize it in the beginning and probably even have already forgotten about it gradually. His wording of “epiphany” is exact.
Also, I think many of you here are simply misinterpreting what he means.
Why something you love and is important to you have to be something in your work?
Just as he himself says, he sets multiple rewards for himself, daily, weekly, monthly.
Where does he say that they are work-related at all?
by ulisesrmzroche on 8/4/14, 3:41 PM
Real burnout has you feeling like your brain is empty, and creative work makes your head hurt. Last thing you want to do is look at more code.
I actually think this guide is much more accurate: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BurnOut
by Sami_Lehtinen on 8/4/14, 6:44 PM
"how to deal with burnout more effective" - That's the key. I have noted that my burnout often comes from situation, where I constantly feel that I'm not doing enough. Reason for that is that you should do everything and always optimize to maximum and be efficient. Things get fixed when you accept, that it's ok to lazily get to work, do something, if you feel like it, if you don't then don't. Then wonder home enjoying the world, it might take hours. Eat something, watch soap opera and go to sleep. - Suddenly you can feel happy, and not burned out at all. Need to be effective and performing well is the ultimate trap.
by AVTizzle on 8/4/14, 2:00 PM
"The solution is actually quite simple: do what you love and is important to you regularly."
Of course I agree - this is near impossible to argue. It's what pushed me into entrepreneurship after realizing I wanted to shape my own work reality if it was something I was going to be spending 40+ hours a week doing.
That said, a reality I feel like I'm coming to grips with is that most of my friends working traditional/conventional career paths really don't give a damn about their work.
I'm a little skeptical about the idea that this is practical information most people working normal jobs will follow through with (that basically means, quit).
by 127001brewer on 8/4/14, 2:19 PM
Why do we work?
Let's say that for most people following Hacker News, it's because their work matters to them; and, for others, it's just a paycheck.
Because of these differing work attitudes, you will see some expression of "burnout" (or some other work-related unhappiness). Keeping in mind these differences can help, but it won't solve this fundamental difference within a team.
by danatkinson on 8/4/14, 2:39 PM
It's odd but sex is not mentioned even once as a legitimate release.
by pskittle on 8/4/14, 3:25 PM
This article did strike a nerve esp Meyers quote about burnout stemming from the desire to not be able to do what u love regularly.
by autism_hurts on 8/4/14, 4:01 PM
If you don't have the following utterly optimized:
- Nutrition - Exercise - Friends (Support Network)
The above will continue to happen. Get healthy, get a tribe. It's not HN, by the way.