from Hacker News

The Bay Area

by knv on 2/28/14, 8:44 PM with 46 comments

  • by nemothekid on 2/28/14, 9:40 PM

    >I can’t help noticing that 100% of the people I see who are building the future and making the big bucks are ethnically Chinese, Indian, or white. And 100% of the people I see who are washing floors or guarding doors or serving fast food are black and Mexican and Central-American.

    Painting this social issue as racism is incorrect and using racism as a boogeyman, sweeps the real issues under the rug. I'm confident that now, especially in Silicon Valley, that no one in this social ladder is actively working against the issues of black and latino people.

    Its my understanding is that you aren't actually seeing racism, but class discrimination. I wonder how many Indian or Chinese founders are actually immigrants from relatively well todo families that could afford to send someone half way across the world. I also wonder what is the class make up of white people in that same demographic. Are poor white people afforded the same opportunities? (which is another reason I'm opposed calling this "racism", you may be potentially leaving out an underserved demographic who is being told to "deal with it" because they were born white, yet poor - and alot of them don't exist in cities, but in Rural America)

    Looking at it this way, you shift the problem from becoming one about chasing the racist white boogeyman who isn't giving black people jobs, and highlight a deeper social issue. Is the issue here actually that poor america has low social mobility?

    Simultaneously, if we look at all the minorities in tech, what socioeconomic background do they come from? I'm willing to bet they are the same, and like me, college educated parents and high income.

    So how come there are no poor white people at mcdonalds? Well whats the demo of san francisco's poor? The white poor may all be working at the mcdonalds in the flyover states.

  • by rootedbox on 2/28/14, 10:02 PM

    I'm hispanic living in the mission, and for a long time I also had 2 black roommates. We've had many conversations about direct blatant racism, and also indirect just people being ignorant in what they say bigotry. Of course a lot of non-minorities have issues understanding the difference in racism, and bigotry.

    This being said. What is brought up in this article is racism. Specifically the institution of racism. If you are not actively doing things to fix the institutions of racism, and sexism; then you are actively part of an institution of racism and sexism. Silicon Valley / San Francisco has done very little to fix racism, and sexism. If we all got together and wanted to defeat these institutions we could do so in 20 years; and work at places where the race, and sex of workers is representative of the general public.

  • by twrkit on 2/28/14, 9:56 PM

    This is one of those unfortunate situations where no matter what he says it's going to make things worse. And now to nitpick:

    >I can’t help noticing that 100% of the people I see who are building the future and making the big bucks are ethnically Chinese, Indian, or white. And 100% of the people I see who are washing floors or guarding doors or serving fast food are black and Mexican and Central-American.

    As someone who works in tech and lives in the Bay Area, I can tell you without a doubt there are many people in the industry who are indeed 'black and Mexican and Central-American.' Conversely (and somewhat anecdotally), I see plenty of Asian-Americans and whites working in fast food.

  • by angryindianguy on 2/28/14, 9:58 PM

    >I can’t help noticing that 100% of the people I see who are building the future and making the big bucks are ethnically Chinese, Indian, or white. And 100% of the people I see who are washing floors or guarding doors or serving fast food are black and Mexican and Central-American.

    I am sorry I used to think that Tim Bray was a smart guy. Hell Indians in India are far more poorer than African Americans. Now if some indians worked hard and pulled themselves up, and got jobs / started companies in SF. But hey its still racism. There is no institutional racism, what exists is a black latino culture that looks down upon education. Thats the problem that needs to be addressed not some institutional racism boogeyman.

    People want to work with other people who will help them succeeds in fact Asians and Indians show that SF is not at all racist.

  • by thetrb on 2/28/14, 9:12 PM

    This is a blog and therefore the author can of course present his opinion in any way he wants, but I'd really like to see this claim backed up somehow. Are there any statistics that show a difference in the distribution of wealth or well-paying jobs between the Bay Area and Vancouver?

  • by countrybama24 on 2/28/14, 10:24 PM

    There is a selection bias here. Immigrating from Asia is significantly more difficult and expensive than Central America. I would hypothesize that immigrants from these areas are more ambitious, economically better off and more capable on average than immigrants from nearby countries (and maybe even "native" Americans). Additionally, immigrants are more likely to assimilate into local American life and have better relationships with American institutions (police, schools, etc.) than African-Americans who unlike immigrants, didn't choose to be here and are more likely to view such institutions in a negative light.

  • by savvyraccoon on 2/28/14, 9:43 PM

    The same "racism" in Vancouver: "Most of Metro Vancouver’s Filipinos value being near transit hubs – since many need to travel inexpensively to low-tomiddle-wage jobs as nannies, cleaners, seniors care aids, security officials, service clerks, short-order cooks and practical nurses"

    http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2011/10/17/ethnic-mapping-3-fi...

  • by DiabloD3 on 2/28/14, 9:48 PM

    I have to admit, this guy has balls for saying these things. I am not saying I agree with him OR disagree with him, but online reputation affects your ability to get hired by tech companies.

    I have not read the whole saga of this, but this may positively or negatively his chances of getting another job in the tech sector.

    Also, the comments are worth looking through, ageism has also been brought up (and, as an outsider looking at the Silicon Valley, is a problem IMO).

  • by carsongross on 2/28/14, 11:05 PM

    >I can’t help noticing that 100% of the people I see who are building the future and making the big bucks are ethnically Chinese, Indian, or white. And 100% of the people I see who are washing floors or guarding doors or serving fast food are black and Mexican and Central-American.

    Hilariously, blacks and hispanics make up less than 2.5% of Vancouver's population:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Vancouver

    But, please, lecture us more on the topic.

    Personally, I live in Sacramento, America's most diverse city: http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,340694,00... So I'm allowed to lecture ALL OF YOU regarding your privilege.

  • by smackfu on 2/28/14, 9:40 PM

    Oh boy. He probably should have just let it go.

  • by hablahaha on 2/28/14, 9:06 PM

  • by eldude on 2/28/14, 10:41 PM

    Unfortunately, a great deal of the perceived "racism" in the US is actually cultural. The greatest example of this are Blacks. Yes, African Americans have an extensive, awful and horrific national history of racism and abuse, but there are numerous examples of African American culture holding itself back.

    A couple examples: Bill Cosby[1], Jamaicans[2], black raised by whites[3]. (There are numerous others, but these are the easy three.)

    Jamaicans for example, see African Americans as lazy and deserving of their place in American society and often hate being referred to as African American because it is both inaccurate, and because they do not culturally identify with them, seeing no conflict between their blackness and their ability to achieve the American Dream.

    When you hear cries of racism, consider whether you actually see people being mistreated or considered inferior because of the color of their skin, or if their own (cultural) behaviors are ensuring their struggle. It's extremely unfortunate and my heart breaks for anyone suffering from cultural peer pressure or family pressures to not forsake their "heritage" by "acting white," especially since you don't have to act white in order to act successful.

    My opinion is that you see this exemplified most in the Bay Area because you are viewing the top 0.1% of achievers in the tech industry. Adding a self-sabotaging cultural identity certainly cannot help, and I imagine going to non-top 20 public university probably also doesn't help, which is why so many in the Bay Area grads are from MIT, Stanford, Harvard, Carnegie Mellon, etc... graduates.

    FWIW, I acknowledge that there ARE in fact some cultural pressure to conform to arbitrary FLOABW "white" behaviors, which have similar ramifications to racism, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

    Lastly, self-sabotaging culture is not uniquely black, white, hispanic, etc... which is why it's has nothing to do with race or racism.

    [1] http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/cosby.asp [2] http://www.jamaicans.com/articles/primecomments/1002_amerija... [3] Barack Obama, Halle Berry, numerous friends...

  • by vondur on 2/28/14, 9:51 PM

    You will mostly see Hispanic people working the types of jobs Mr. Bray lists because many of them are illegals, and are paid under the table. It keeps labor costs low. It's not really racism so much as economic exploitation.

  • by ultimatedelman on 2/28/14, 9:55 PM

    100% is a bit... hyperbolic. I work in SOMA and paid a white dude for my sandwich today.