by jejune06 on 1/25/14, 1:15 AM with 168 comments
by carterschonwald on 1/25/14, 7:40 AM
Most of other Tier 1 universities where I've known students (Columbia, Mit, Princeton, Harvard, Dartmouth, etc), have much much more proactive support infrastructure to prophylactically protect and suport their students (or at least the undergrads). (whenever a student at one of these schools complains about bureaucracy, I smile at how much more their university cares about/protect students).
Perhaps just at importantly, students at these other schools find it more permissible to openly communicate that they're unhappy to their peer group. At Yale (as of 3-6 years ago), being unhappy was considered socially unacceptable, ie "why are you here then" would be a typical response. Being able to talk about problems amongst your social peer group is very important! (and being unable to is toxic and dangerous)
I've some very very good friends who had terrible mental health issues go unmanaged for years because of Yale's shitty lack of proactive support of students. And thats even ignoring some of the sexual harrassment issues some undergrad women I know there suffered (from their research lab advisors!).
tl;dr, yale is one of the more toxic environments in the ivy league, though to an outsider it looks like one of the warmer communities.
The first step to having a healthy community is making it ok for people to talk about problems and matters.
I speak from the experience of having been a student at yale, a graduate student at another ivy, and having spent A LOT of time visiting friends at many universities. Every school has its faults, but trust least the ones that hide those faults.
by rdtsc on 1/25/14, 2:04 AM
Keeping that student is perceived a liability for them. As they honestly put it they don't really think they will be safer at home, and it is obvious they don't care what happens. They just don't want to deal with it. They see this person as a risk not worth taking.
> If I were a liar, I would never have gotten myself into this mess. Fuck me for not being a liar.
You sometimes have to be a liar when dealing with large bureaucratic systems. A large school is certainly one such thing. They do not have your best interests in mind. Healing you is not on their priority list. Be honest with people you trust and love. Don't treat institutions as moral agents.
You'll even find sometimes your doctor's #1 priority might not be to heal you. Their goal could be to perform more surgeries. So all of the sudden you are told to get surgeries. Get second opinions. And so on.
by prolways on 1/25/14, 2:47 AM
My sister sought help for a sleeping disorder, and received nothing but a suspension of her driver's license. She then had to overcome her medical difficulties on her own and pass an unreasonably arduous test to get her license back.
My coworker went to our boss to say she couldn't make ends meet and needed some kind of raise (making $25k with 2 kinds in bay area). He fired her for being a liability.
I went to the police to report a hit and run, and they used it as an opportunity to search my vehicle in an attempt to levy charges against me. They openly acknowledged they have basically 0 ability to actually find the perpetrator of the real crime.
I ask myself almost every day, as I'm innundated with needless financial and societal burdens I cannot shoulder, what obligations does society have back to me? I cannot think of any.
by akavi on 1/25/14, 3:15 AM
I should know; I was one of them.
by stephen on 1/25/14, 3:57 AM
The gal has obviously sick. Yes, Yale sent her away, but is there any actual psychiatrist here who would recommend keeping a suicidal/self-harming patient in any school/job situation?
If anything, Yale should get some credit for not black balling her; they, including this awful "won't see the students" Dr. Siggins, readmitted her when she was recovered.
Sounds like a horrible, unfortunate situation worked out as well as can be expected.
by niels_olson on 1/25/14, 5:27 AM
She had to "listen to the rattling gasping sound coming from the person two beds down" and to "a schizophrenic person declare, every hour or so, that he had soiled himself". When she is interning for The Congressman, in a policy debate about primary care or mental health, she will value the opportunity to have borne witness to their sufferings.
She was asked to recite the presidents in reverse order? You mean the psychiatrist was adapt enough to develop a intellectually appropriate variation on the mini-mental status exam? That sounds like first rate care to me.
The men with guns have guns because they're representatives of the state. Yes, ultimately, they exercise the state's monopoly on violence. Which is mostly incidental. We can't arrange special neutered cops for the sensibilities of Ms Williams, and frankly, the psych ward of a downtown hospital is one of the more volatile places in the world. Same for the room/cell, etc, etc. The physical confines are a function of what's safe based on the lowest common denominator in the population: the 6'7" 230 lb schizoaffective linebacker (have met those patients ... do not care to meet again).
Her central thesis, that Yale is focused on image, frankly doesn't sound like anything the university is really worried about. No rational administrator would allow image to enter their minds. If anything, that would be antithetical to the image argument. These are people who live their lives by the mantra that they should be prepared for anything they say to be published on the front page of the New York Times. And they're pretty savvy. They know that doing the best for this student, no matter what the blow back, is ultimately the right thing to do. Take care of the patient and the image issue will take care of itself.
by tehwalrus on 1/25/14, 2:09 PM
I have seen my fellow students (good friends) suffer bereavement, depression and self-harm, and none were ever told that they were no longer welcome at the college, or the university, nor treated like criminals[1] as described here.
There are pastoral carers, both religious and non-religious, and councilling services based at different levels within the university, and there is (of course) NHS healthcare as well.
If people do take time out (usually a whole year at a time) they return when they feel well enough, not when they are re-approved as sane by some university figure concerned with PR.
Lying about being "OK" at every turn is also not something that happens. Of course, people don't always answer in detail when asked how they are, as social convention dictates, but it was entirely normal to say that you were snowed under with work/extra-curricular stuff, or that there was something bugging you. Either that or I was doing it wrong the whole time.
[1] == treated like mental patients 40 years ago. Also remember that something like 70% of all inmates in British jails have a mental health problem.
by hangonhn on 1/25/14, 6:33 AM
Things weren't always alright but I did get a break when I needed it. I went to the Department of Undergraduate Health after having really bad headaches, like someone was stabbing me in the forehead. They checked some stuff but the doctor basically said I was working myself to death. I was definitely struggling at that point. He told me to take a few days off and wrote a note for me. I took it to my dean and he wrote another note that basically allowed me to turn in all my work late for about a week or so. I rested and things got better. I don't think I was alone in struggling and receiving help. It's a bit hard for me to reconcile the considerably more compassionate response I received from Yale with her experience. Is Yale so extreme that once you cross a threshold they become stone cold?
People struggle in college. It's strange for me to read that everyone around her is acting OK. I would have told her that things are tough if we had been classmates. It's pretty depressing at times watching the sunrise from the windows of the computer lab. Or in my moment of triumph after getting my toy OS to run there is no one around to share that joy with because most people are asleep at 6 AM on Saturday.
I'm not saying her account isn't true for her but Yale is a big and diverse place. It might to good to be around different people. Go hang out with the CS people in the computer lab on Friday night at 11PM. They will tell you things aren't alright and thanks for the company.
by grannyg00se on 1/25/14, 2:30 AM
by DanBC on 1/25/14, 7:27 AM
Don't Americans have anti-discrimination laws? And the decision to exclide people who disclose self harm is baffling, because people who self harm usually avoid seeking treatment. Not just avoid seeking treatment for self harm, but avoid seeking treatment for other stuff because they are worried about the self harm being discovered.
by isaacb on 1/25/14, 3:37 AM
by noonespecial on 1/25/14, 3:33 AM
by rajacombinator on 1/25/14, 8:19 AM
by bichiliad on 1/25/14, 4:18 PM
Remember, take what you read with a grain of salt. You have no way of verifying any of the facts in the article.
by joesmo on 1/25/14, 9:34 PM
There is NO help for people with mental problems, only abandonment and prosecution. Because of legislation preventing discrimination, this is not done overtly and it APPEARS that one can get help from doctors and mental health facilities when in reality these are just the wardens and prisons for those who are labeled as mentally defective. It's obvious that Yale does not care about its students based on Dr. Siggins' behavior, but this is something that one should expect for the rest of one's life. Best thing to do is to keep quiet and recognize the lack of help. Occasionally, there are doctors and therapists that can help, but mostly they will just try to push drugs.
by PhantomGremlin on 1/25/14, 6:54 AM
It sucks that Yale didn't help this person when she need it. But it certainly doesn't get any better in the real world.
If, one fine afternoon, your boss says "how are you?" and you say "I cut myself earlier today", then expect to be promptly escorted out of the building. Perhaps to a mental health facility, if you're lucky.
If, one fine afternoon, your boss says "how are you?" and you don't say "fine", be prepared to explain yourself in detail. You'd better have a way with words, because your job is definitely on the line. Especially at a startup.
You might say "that sucks". And it does suck. But that's just the way it is for 99% (wild made up number) of the jobs in the USA. Unlike grade school soccer games, your employer isn't going to hand out trophies just for participation.
All IMO of course.
by gaius on 1/25/14, 11:19 AM
Damn, that's bleak.
by yeukhon on 1/25/14, 8:08 AM
We are playing Elsa in Frozen. Be the good girl you always have to be. Conceal, don't feel, don't fear, conceal.
College is certainly very different. Well, also, depending on the people you rely on in school.
I want to say that we should recognize depression and mental illness is just part of life and don't be afraid when bad things come to us.
When I was in HS I had a severe depression. Starting in the junior year I had multiple anger issues and I had to drop some AP classes due to stress. In senior year I had several serious incidents within and outside of school. The stress was killing me. I couldn't resist to see my grade going down, losing grasp of the new shiny robotics club I just started and couldn't get the girl I really like at the time.
I was sent to hospital twice for evaluation. The second time, I was called by my counselor. She told me someone wanted to see me and I asked who. Two NYPD officers showed up and they escorted me to the hospital. I was really scared. I cried and I thought I was under arrested. I was only 17 at the time. I have never been arrested. I thought my counselor betrayed me. I thought everyone sold me out. My counselor said someone else from the school would come with me. A school aid came with us. Both evaluations are dull and tiring. My whole family had to stay with me until 2, 3AM in the morning. Some times later my mother said they all cried when they heard how sick I was. When the MD confirmed I was sick, it was like someone just sentenced me to death. I could finally tell people "yes, I am sick", but at the same time I was sick and people would look at me slightly different.
We all have some experience with depression and anxiety. The experience is never pleasant. For me, it involves sleeping late and feel unmotivated. My day and night reversed. I could sleep for 12-14 hours a day. Nothing felt real when I was depressed. Just watch Frozen.
I could go on and on with a novel writing here (well I suck at writing..). But I can see I am a lucky person. I knew a lot of the people in HS. I used to work in the principal office, I was the go-to IT guy so I knew many people. When I was sick they would tell me "go on John." The school didn't ban me from entering the school. They hired psychiatrist to come to school on a weekly basis (apparently I wasn't the only one having issue in my high school). The social worker and the psychiatrist were both Chinese so my parents could actually talk to them. My teachers didn't penalize me much for the tardiness and would encourage me to come to school. PE became my favorite class. I could run 10-20 laps around the track and the sweat made me happier. Yes. Sun light is important. Locking a patient in a concrete building forever is not going to help much. Socializing with other patients won't help much either... If my senior year last 10 months, I lost probably 7 months fighting depression with 3 months somewhat happy, crazy moments with classmates, friends and teachers.
College is different to me. People come and go. I go to a commute type of school. I get to come home. I get to sleep in and stay inside my room for a whole week if I want to. My parents can worry or feel angry but they are my parents. Unlike people who dorm they have to put up with other "strangers". College is like going for a boring interview for a boring job. That's just me. That's just my experience.
We shouldn't treat people with mental illness as third class citizen. We need to make rehabilitation more human. Drugs can damage brain and can change people. If you have watch Fringe you would know how much the drug and the environment affect Dr. Walter. And if you watch Orange is the New Black, prisoners are afraid of going to the psycho solitary.
I am proud to tell people my story because this is part of my life. I feel like a real person. I am not a Disney character. I have desire and my desire pushed me beyond my limit and so I become depressed, stressed and hopeless.
Don't be afraid to tell people when you are not okay. It's fine. Knowing you are not okay is the first step to rescue yourself. It's okay to feel depress and get depress for a while. Just remember, one day, when you wake up, you will feel better and you will force yourself to go out there. When that happens, don't let the freedom run away from you...
For the first time in forever, there will be music there will be light. For the first time in forever, I will be dancing through the night.
But of course, luck does play in a role. Some people are just not so lucky. They don't get the nice people on their side and they die because of that...
As a side note, I was depressed recently again. I feel better now. I set my foot out of the house. I went to realworldcrypto conference and did volunteering for local FLL (FIRST Lego League). I chilled with friends and people I used to work with and then I saw two great movies. I built a snowman and now I feel better.
by b1daly on 1/25/14, 9:15 AM
by socrates1998 on 1/25/14, 10:10 PM
Americans are addicted to success. People lie to each other about how good everything is.
"I hate my job, but life after 5pm is okay." "I have no time to see my family, but my life is rockin!" "I work 100 hours a week, but I love it!"
Balance is difficult because no one can tell you what it is, you have to find it yourself.
by username223 on 1/25/14, 3:46 AM
by marvin on 1/25/14, 3:08 PM
by roymurdock on 1/25/14, 9:44 AM
by raintrees on 1/25/14, 7:37 PM
I would like to posit that many organizations can react the same, and my personal experience is that it is incredibly helpful to "stay out of the system" if at all possible, again with the caveat that said person is not suffering from a serious health issue like depression/self-mutilation, discrimination to the point of lethal action, etc. that would greatly benefit from being discovered and treated, or at least isolated as the cases may merit.
My difficulty was taking my addictive personality and my "gaming the system" mentality and using it on my escapes of choice, mostly alcohol, at the time. Being on the system's radar (Driving Under the Influence conviction) taught me the lesson of the value of freedom.
I completely abstain at this point, easier for me just to not drink any intoxicant than to try to monitor my intake/arrange for cabs/limos, etc. My freedom is a rejoice-able thing, especially when I see the tendency for bureaucracies to treat people with problems with generalistic patterns/antipatterns. Labels like "alcoholic" or "suffering from depression" are easy targets/goals for the people who are saddled with the responsibility of deciding how to deal with a person with problems in a life where the deciding individuals feel overwhelmed with the amount of cases they are expected to get through.
And I see a reason for concern as the current US government (my location, I do not know if other countries are similar) looks for methods of simplifying the task of dealing with gun control, whistle blowers, and other events/people that may be perceived as threats to the current system. It would be conceivable, based on current legislation attempts/actions, that my government would decide that it is easier to limit the possession of firearms to individuals who have never had "issues" with addictions or mental deviations from what is considered "normal." Or that the potential for disruption of society and markets make self-publication on mediums (Internet blog posts? Self-made videos?) something that should be heavily regulated, for society's own good... And that same governing body is necessarily the arbitrator of what is "normal." Wouldn't bucking the British rule of colonial America be possibly considered "abnormal" by the British government of the time?
One may argue that we do not want mentally-challenged individuals in possession of firearms, I may agree frequently on a case by case basis, but that also then extends to possession of vehicles (more death due to automobile accidents than many other causes), and eventually anything else that can be considered a threat. Box Cutters on planes? Aren't there individuals out there who have the ability to use their own bodies to carry out extensive damage without the aid of any other physical weapon? How would we limit them?
More thought and dialog seems merited, and I appreciate this article for that, as well...
by michaelochurch on 1/25/14, 3:57 PM
It's tempting to think most people are good because few people are obviously evil, and that's wrong. Most people are weak. They're just shuffling through life, not giving a shit, and those who end up in power tend to be the worst (rather than being unambitious, they tend to be the ones with empty ambition).
Here's why this sort of situation, within the U.S. social model, will never get better.
Technology's somewhat different (for now, but the disgusting mainstream business/MBA culture continues to invade because engineers do not fucking fight for themselves) because a high-talent person (even with intermittent health issues) can add a lot of value. However, for most of white-collar America, "work" is just pointless private-sector social climbing. Pure image, no substance, because the work is not demanding and Making Decisions (parable of the bikeshed) is valued in its own right.
The only way to resolve those environments and pick winners among the horde of petitioning narcissists is to set up pointless reliability contests and see who drops first. This idea that it's somehow wrong to discriminate against, or turn one's back on, those with organic physical or mental health issues throws a wrench in that whole game, because transient, context-driven illness (physical and mental) is the core of the selection process. It's what selects people out. The whole point of the old-style corporate-ladder game is to load people up with easy (and often purposeless) work, but in extreme volumes, and presume that those who break last are the best, and those who deserve to lead. (Actually, the opposite is true. Superficial reliability and creativity are negatively correlated, but that's another discussion.) But if you start designating specific illnesses as formal disabilities that must be accommodated (which, from a social justice perspective, one should) that game stops working.
Could you imagine telling an investment bank that people with clinical depression could no longer be expected to work over 60 hours per week? So many people would get themselves diagnosed with depression that people with actual depression would be assumed to just be "faking it" anyway.
What the OP experienced at Yale is wrong, but it's no different from what she'd expect in The Real World.