by lastbookworm on 2/20/13, 6:04 PM with 229 comments
by RyanZAG on 2/20/13, 7:59 PM
Huge amount of people go through similar experiences to yours. Others start to lapse into an experience like yours and get scared - they go the other way and try to force social behavior on themselves, often becoming bullies or the kid you mentioned who hurt himself trying to show off to you.
So my advice (since you're obviously not posting something publicly and expecting to get away without advice shoved at you) - stop worrying about 'normal'. Stop trying to fit in or not fit in. There are no points to be won by having social interactions. Social interactions are so you can learn, experience and enjoy. Approach them like this, and walk away when it's not working and try again. Everyone is doing the same thing, social interactions are breaking everywhere, you just don't see it so much from a distance because people cling to the precious few social interactions which have actually worked for them.
Since you're trying to put things in terms of programming: if your program doesn't work/is slow because you're looping over the wrong thing, try again with a different loop, try a different data structure. You don't need to avoid 'if' loops in the future because they didn't work once. You don't need to keep trying to use an 'if' loop because its 'normal to use an if loop'. Excuse the terrible metaphor.
by tsunamifury on 2/20/13, 7:58 PM
Several points bothered me in this story, as it was a combination of honest observations and immature conclusions.
1) Life takes time, you need to be at peace with being young and not having all the solutions.
2) The author seems to suffer from observing the image of Silicon Valley success without actually experiencing it.
Most people fail, most projects go unfinished, most beyond that never make enough money to sustain a company.
A successful product is the evolutionary result of 10,000 products before it that failed, went unfinished, or were unprofitable. Even the best of the Valley didn't sit down, bang out some brilliant code, slap a business strategy on top, then cash a billion dollar check. They worked long and hard through repeated failures, with sometimes B and C squad talent, slowly carving away at the block of ideas until a product appeared. Then after that, they spend months or years compiling a business strategy and altering the product to become palatable to enough customers to gain a profit.
It takes a team of imperfect people and a lot of time to make even a passable product. Even finishing a unprofitable product is an massive achievement in itself.
It worries me at the end that the author again seems to come to a single conclusion that he believes will bring both success and happiness. That may never come, or it may be that the author never makes a lot of money or never is the best in the field.
This was the most painful part of growing up for me -- accepting that you live in a sea of talented individuals, and you are in no way, the most talented among them. You learn to reach out, form a team, and that great things come from hard work and diligence as much or more so than from natural talent.
by josscrowcroft on 2/20/13, 8:38 PM
"Publishing this was hard but it felt like my only option. For years I have not been living my life, I have been delaying it. Five years ago I paused my life and now it's time to choose between play or stop. I'm pressing play. The world pushed me and instead of pushing back I hid, now I'm pushing back. I'm determined to be myself no matter the consequences.
I know that facing what I am and facing the world is really going to hurt, but I now know that I can survive it. I know that eventually all pain fades away and you're left with only scars. I know that no matter how shitty my emotions tell me things are, that it's not actually that bad. I'll come out the other side no matter what. I'm going to step once more into the fray, come whatever may.
[...]
For now, I'm going to;
Get Out.
Live.
Grow.
Change.
Fight The Urge To Fade."
by gverri on 2/20/13, 7:23 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_the_N.H.K. You're probably familiar with this animated series.
One thing that helped me a lot was doing some Vipassana meditation. Acknowledging that everything as an end. All the pleasures, all the pain. If you wait long enough you'll fell better.
Other important point is Nutrition. It makes a WHOLE LOT of difference on your mental habits. And after some time it will make you a new person.
I suggest you watch the movies "Food Matters" and "Fork over Knives". They're great movies (with some flaws) that can be a kind of "wake up call".
As someone that was on the same boat I wish you all the peace and happiness in the world.
by javajosh on 2/20/13, 9:29 PM
I want to be alone
I want to make money
Now your childhood is over, and you know it is now time for you to create. But mere creation is not enough to make money. You need to create things that people want to buy. That means solving their problems, addressing their pain. And that means being social.
And, since money is vital for your very survival, you must be social to some extent. To rail against this fact is to rail against the need to eat, or to breath. Society is literally that vital to your existence. The fact that it is painful for you is bad luck. Just like asthmatics have it pretty hard when breathing itself can be painful. And just like an asthmatic, you need to figure out how to manage your condition so that you can breath again.
Don't worry about just "getting back to normal". Something tells me that you will remain a unique, talented individual even when you start socializing again.
by cupcake-unicorn on 2/21/13, 12:44 AM
Yes, online interactions are different, but a modern-day "hermit" with access to the internet can't really be viewed as such.
Also, I may get downvoted for "armchair psychology", but I did notice elements of what seemed like thought disorder in the post. It's also diagnosed often in autism spectrum, not just with schizophrenia. I do think diagnoses generally mean very little, and "personality disorders" generally bother me because it seems like broadly defined, you could slap that on anyone - which is also the case with thought disorder. It's not like everyone who goes off on a tangent is "crazy"! But I've interacted with enough non neuroptypical type people (myself being one of them) that I did notice a similarity to others.
by Skoofoo on 2/20/13, 7:09 PM
I can relate to this. As I spend time withdrawn from society (including cybercultures like reddit), my views distance from everyone else's, and it becomes harder to relate to people.
I appreciate Hacker News because people here tend to be unusually receptive to independent thought.
by jawns on 2/20/13, 8:11 PM
There's a common misconception that circumcision, for Christians, is a religious ritual or a religious requirement.
In fact, it's just the opposite. Many Christian denominations (e.g. Catholicism) specifically DISALLOW circumcision, if it's done for religious reasons.
by cousin_it on 2/20/13, 6:52 PM
by MattGrommes on 2/21/13, 12:00 AM
You've made it to the point where you know you have to make a change, which is awesome. I hope you can also get to the point where you can stop being so self-conscious about being different and just live your life. Unclench a little. I'm almost 35 and I'm just now starting to enjoy people in a real way, having done a program of "Fake it til you make it" for years. You're entering real adulthood now and you'll make adult friends, you'll move on and get some perspective on things. Take it from me, it seems like an impossibly long time now but in 5 years you'll look back on this story in a very different way.
by Erwin on 2/20/13, 8:02 PM
I used to keep a diary, where 13 years ago my entries were long monologues similar to this. There was a clear correlation between amount of personal and emotional human contact I had in a day and the length of the diary entries where I tried to reminisce going mushroom picking with my grandmother a decade earlier.
The world today seems too constantly distracting for that sort of thing.
by deleted_account on 2/20/13, 6:43 PM
What am I reading.
by astine on 2/20/13, 9:51 PM
I was homeschooled and while it's true that homeschoolers tend to have cooperatives, and join social clubs, you're still more isolated than children in more traditional situations. To this day I'm more socially awkward than most of people I know and I wonder if the homeschooling didn't have something to do with it.
by undupe on 2/20/13, 8:24 PM
> They form relationships with other people only if they believe they will not be rejected. Loss and rejection are so painful that these people will choose to be lonely rather than risk trying to connect with others.
by yesnomaybe on 2/20/13, 7:30 PM
by Osmium on 2/20/13, 10:13 PM
Humans, whether you like it or not, have evolved to be a social species. Even if one wishes to withdraw, they can only do this in practice with the tacit permission of the society they live in, at least unless they're prepared to give up all worldly conveniences and just go live in a cave somewhere. I also find that interesting, though I'm not sure what to make of it.
by xk_id on 2/20/13, 8:53 PM
by jpxxx on 2/20/13, 6:47 PM
by pan69 on 2/20/13, 7:31 PM
Would it be a loss for you if you told your story to a professional counselor? I think you should. It's only a small step to take and there are no obligations what so ever.
You're a prisoner of your own life and it doesn't have to be like this. You already took a first step by publishing this story, now take that second step!
by timwoj on 2/20/13, 8:17 PM
I think this is something that comes with age for almost everyone that perceives themselves as different. People in their younger years attempt to change how they are in order to make everyone like them. Later on in life, they realize that this is pointless and they're better off just being themselves and shedding the people who can't deal with that.
by georgeorwell on 2/20/13, 11:00 PM
Don't pay too much attention to all of the people in this thread criticizing you or offering advice that doesn't fit. The two worst things about the internet are that it's simply more difficult to empathize with other people, and that there are fewer / zero consequences for rudeness.
One thing caught my attention:
> I have never known my Dad. My mom left him when I was four. They were both drug users and to escape the drug usage my mom left him. I have only blurry memories of him. None of my memories of him are positive.
Having had similar experiences, from my perspective this is the root cause of your troubles. It's kind of unbelievable how deep the rabbit hole can go in terms of how this affects your life. I just want you to keep that in mind.
Take care and good luck. You'll figure it out.
by jetti on 2/20/13, 7:00 PM
by CanSpice on 2/20/13, 9:50 PM
> Play keep away with a normal persons hat and you're just taking their hat. Play keep away with an Autistic persons hat and it's possible that it's his best friend named "Charlie". It's highly unlikely that Charlie enjoys flying at highspeeds through the air into greasy hands. You're not playing keep away with a hat, you are tossing around and abusing his best friend. It takes a damaged monster to play keep away with someone's dog or their younger sibling, but most will think nothing of playing keep away with the weird kids hat.
My four-year old daughter isn't autistic, but this morning we were running to her daycare. My wife had her blankie and was out-running my daughter. All of a sudden my daughter stopped and started bawling, when five seconds earlier she was loving the chase. I'm thinking that maybe the above paragraph doesn't just apply to autistic people, it applies to anybody who forms a bond with an inanimate object.
by pnathan on 2/20/13, 8:49 PM
Nothing wrong with introversion, IMO. Lots of people have done it throughout centuries. It can be harmful, and props to OP for recognizing the problem and choosing to move forward.
by metastew on 2/20/13, 7:18 PM
Just my $0.02.
by digitalengineer on 2/20/13, 8:05 PM
by jey on 2/20/13, 7:40 PM
by easy_rider on 2/21/13, 1:10 PM
Obviously it was the thing I loved at that moment, the riches allured to me and my friends didn't "Get" the amounts I would be playing for anyway. They also didn't "get it" why it sucked so hard to end up 11/1500 in a big tournament. (Hey you still won right?).
You're right when you see relationships don't work when you always have a communication problem.
Usually though, the problem is not that people don't understand you - (sidenote: i know there are just stupid people who don't, or don't want to. You don't need them anyway). The problem is you won't let people understand you, because you are ignorant, arrogant and self-righteous. No offence but, if you were such a genius you wouldn't be working on Ruby projects (no pun.) People probably would understand you, and you would probably have better socializing experiences if you tried.
Seems you sucked at this stuff when you were a kid, and now when you've grown up enough to be able to understand yourself and put everything into words, you still decide its the best route to go.
Well die lonely then if you like it. It's not for me.
by JohnBooty on 2/20/13, 9:11 PM
"Before long I'm committed to a shit ton of things and I am so stressed out that I cant focus long enough to fake my way through life. Inevitably I implode and disappoint everyone I had commitments to."
First, there's a ton of positivity in your writing, because you're recognizing that overcommitment is really bringing you and (even better) you're taking responsibility for correcting this.
This part concerned me a bit:
"I'm taking all the skills I have learned from learning and applying them to my psyche. I'm going to re-build and re-form my emotional centers from the ground up. I'm going to take my unhealthy mental state and refactor it into a functional vibrant self. I'm re-life-ing"
This is very ambitious!
Not all ambitious goals are a path to overcommitment, but are you being very careful that this ambitious goal won't wind up being yet another overcommitment (leading to yet more pain) on your part?
Perhaps you could set up meaningful milestones along the way? For example, you could count the number of times you stick to a 4-day or 5-day work week each month. Even if the "reward" is just a big green checkmark on the wall calendar, that can be really gratifying.
Best wishes!
by jamesmiller5 on 2/20/13, 8:06 PM
"Life is the series of choices we remember making. When something goes wrong it's easy to see it is as not a choice. There was too much stress. Your dog ate it. Your clients were assholes ... I now realize that to fix myself, I'm going to have to be myself; and to be myself, I'm going to face myself."
by AlexDanger on 2/21/13, 2:57 AM
You know, the ones who'd prefer not to play outside with the other kids?
Whilst at uni I worked part time in various capacities as a tutor or educational assistant. One school in particular was very accommodating to students with different needs. And not just the kids who couldnt read, but the kids who wanted to read all day.
I think you'd have something to contribute in that space.
by bitwize on 2/20/13, 8:17 PM
by emilnewton on 2/20/13, 10:02 PM
You already know what happens if you don't fade.
You fight every second of every minute of every hour of every day until one day you die. It'll be exhausting and possibly not worth it.
Maybe fading will be some totally cool experience? Of course no one else would ever know, but screw em.
by readme on 2/20/13, 9:56 PM
Going to try to make some when spring comes, but it's too cold to really bother right now. Being a recluse isn't so bad.
by msutherl on 2/21/13, 4:26 AM
Makes me wonder if this happens with a lot of serif faces in light on dark color schemes and if there's some way to fix it.
Also, not sure if the OP is reading, but while the alternating dark/light text on a grey background is an interesting idea, it just doesn't work. The dark on dark text is hard to read, the emphasis is too strong and comes off as heavy-handed, and the overall effect on the experience of reading is negative in my subjective evaluation.
by rfugger on 2/21/13, 9:47 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder
I know it's not about labels, but sometimes knowing a word for it can help you find others' stories, which can help you go easier on yourself for being different from what you perceive is "normal".
Edit to add: Get your B12 levels checked. Low B12 can lead to schizoid-type behaviour. Also possibly folate levels.
by DocG on 2/21/13, 12:02 PM
Second, there seems to be unlucky amount of not your kind of people around you. I have managed to find people, who seem "default" on the surface, because they have to, but the praise different. Almost any kind, there is no "you are too weird". And it helps, its awesome.
by yarou on 2/21/13, 12:39 AM
On a side note, I didn't realize HN was becoming more and more Reddit-like every day. This is probably the first submission I've seen that reads almost like an AMA...perhaps it is a sign of things to come.
by tantaman on 2/21/13, 1:34 AM
Someone that you have to commit to. Someone that'll be there long enough to see all your bullshit and hypocrisies and call you out on them.
If you're alone, it's easy to commit to doing something only to later "forget" about the commitment when it is no longer convenient for you. A partner that you've made a commitment to won't forget it so easily.
The same goes for business. Maybe that's why startups often have strong co-founders.
by scotty79 on 2/21/13, 4:16 PM
OP: chess, checkers - me: school olympics, chemistry, math, physics
OP: tour trauma, when asking tour guide a question, everybody laughed - me: tour trauma when tour guide played naughty joke on my mom and everybody laughed
OP: abusive dad, divorced early - me: no dad, left at birth (fortunately awesome grandpa that taught me Ohm's law, how to drill, solder and lots of other stuff)
OP and me: interest in psychology (for me ended with learning what Freud was saying, I have no business in branch of science where name of such clueless bent puppy is remembered)
OP: crappy kindergarten experience, me: spent few hours in kindergarten, don't remember anything but I never went back there, I cried too much when they tried to drag me there
Fortunately, I had (still have) great, stable mother, I had close friends (full honesty with them, nearly kind of mind melt) until I was 17 or so (OP had some till 12).
I'm 34. My true self kind of melded with my fake self. They switch in seconds. When I'm interacting with acquaintances I still fake it. Often I fake amusement because I want to come off as cheerful, but I'm rarely truly amused. Pretty often I fake quite well which makes me proud. But I don't have to fake with few people that are close to me. I just have to restrain myself from exposing full me in some cases, but I guess most people do that even (especially?) with their loved ones.
I went different way than OP, I was madly in love two times as a teenager, now I have de-facto wife. She's awesome. After 8 years or so of the relationship, from time to time I feel that I love her and I feel the urge to tell her that. Not sure if that's unusual but I think it's a good sign.
But I know I chose one path. And sometimes I long for the other, for being a shut-in. I hate going out. I hate meeting people who are not my closes friends. I don't eagrely await meeting even my closest friends. Social interaction exhausts me. I used my relationship to shed off almost all of my friends. Still I think living among people takes at least 80% of my energy. I have only 20% left for doing the stuff I actually care about.
As they say, grass is always greener on the other side. I'd probably be same looser with too high IQ and too little motivation if I were a shut-in. But one can dream.
by networked on 2/20/13, 6:59 PM
Now that's an interesting hypothesis. I have seen a study on how insufficient parental attention increases the risk of suicide in teenagers but not this.
Edit: searching for "overprotection and suicide" ("overprotection" is the best keyword I could come up with; I did the search without the quotes) yields little.
by krob on 2/21/13, 4:47 AM
by hjay on 2/20/13, 7:41 PM
But after reading up to "I guess I'm kinda different.", I couldn't stand it and had to use Developer Tools to change the background color and font color. Still feeling some discomfort in my eyes and it feels like the text is burned in front of me.
by talmir on 2/21/13, 12:45 PM
In reality the author is just alike everyone else, with fears and emotions which caused him to shut himself in and rationalize it with some meditative jargon.
by lightyrs on 2/21/13, 4:54 AM
Of everything you wrote, this line was the most relatable to my own experiences:
"If you don't like who I am then you can go fuck yourself."
Once I adopted this mindset, all things became possible.
Good Luck!
by theklub on 2/21/13, 3:31 AM
by SCAQTony on 2/21/13, 12:21 AM
I suspect some spectrum issues are involved but he is still no less of a person.
by shoxty on 2/21/13, 5:38 PM
by coldtea on 2/21/13, 4:32 AM
Isn't that for others to judge? It's not like one person can judge himself to be or not be the above.
by ytNumbers on 2/20/13, 11:33 PM
by throwawayz9v7 on 2/20/13, 7:57 PM
by INTPenis on 2/21/13, 11:35 AM
by waxjar on 2/21/13, 12:06 AM
I'm not suggesting it is a cry for help (though it certainly could be), but it certainly is an attempt to connect with others.
I must admit I haven't read the full story. I found it too lengthy.
by scottrogowski on 2/21/13, 12:52 AM
You mentioned that your last close friend was when you were 12 and that you were in a distance high school. Do be sure that you realize that middle school was as bad as it gets in regards to social pressure to be normal. This is a different world now. Immediately out of college around your age (22?), nerds like us become pretty cool because we have interesting jobs and make a lot of money. To some extent, almost all programmers have a few social idiosyncrasies and for the most part we share these in common. So what that means for you is that those idiosyncrasies which previously got you bullied are now the same that people associate with success.
While I realize that for you it might be the only way, I think your plan in the 're-life' section is a bit misguided. Learning to be social is a fundamentally different thing from learning a new skill. There is no sense in focusing down and trying to find the core problems because social behaviors generally exist below our stream of consciousness (somewhat related: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introspection_illusion). If you approach this in a way that you would learn a new programming language, you will also quickly find that the difference is that learning to socialize is NOT interesting or fun in an academic sense and you will quickly lose motivation. Instead, since you seem to have a lot of varied interests, I would start with a Meetup. There should be hacker or entrepreneurial groups holding meetings near you (unless of course you still live in Idaho!) The important thing is to go out and try to do things you are interested in with other people no matter how painful or awkward at first. Social behaviors will eventually be picked up subconsciously.
Measuring your progress is always a good way to motivate yourself and stay on track. But I would avoid measuring "all the human things" and instead focus on metrics like, "how many people did I say hi to today" or "how long was I outside of my room".
To make this easier for yourself (and therefore increase your chances for success), you might not want to change your name to K-2052 just yet. I think it is great move and I agree with your logic but put it to the side until you are a bit further along on your quest. Then, you will have the ability to rock the name.
And suggestions on where to move? Being in a big city is important more than anything else. I live in San Francisco and a great thing about this city is that weirdness is embraced more than anywhere else I have ever spent time. You might also think about moving to a abroad if you know any foreign languages. People will tend interpret social differences as cultural differences and you will be get a bit more wiggle-room with your weird behaviors while you come out of your shell.
I would venture to say that most of us here (myself included) feel empathy towards parts of your story so just know that you are not as different as you think you are!
by dinosaurus on 2/21/13, 12:54 PM
by grownseed on 2/21/13, 8:50 AM
I was born with a slight genetic defect, meaning that by the age of five my hearing was entirely gone. Luckily enough for me, multiple operations have led to getting most of my hearing back, and of course I'm extremely thankful for that. Not meaning to spill out my life here, but I simply want to point out that being a shut-in was in a way forced on me, and I learnt a lot from it. I turned the most traumatic experience of my life into the best thing that's ever happened to me. Very much like you I'm pretty weird in a lot of respects, and as I believe you're trying to achieve, I've turned most of my weirdness into strengths. I can read body language naturally, so I use it to identify stress and discomfort in other people, often before they even realize it. I empathize very strongly, generally without people needing to tell me what's happening. I can become "deaf at will", i.e. shut the world around me entirely and concentrate even in the noisiest places. I see rhythm and patterns in everything, even in social interactions. And so on.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the source of your weirdness is very much the same as the source of your greatness. Having the tools is one thing, and it's now a matter of using them properly. It also turns out socializing is very much an elaborate way to showcase your weirdness to your peers, and often realize someone will share some of it with you (a lot like some people have done in this thread).
Two things that have made my life considerably better in every respect:
Don't lie, to others but also to yourself. I have done the same thing you have, pretending, a lot! Pretending to be happy when I wasn't, pretending that I cared when I didn't and vice-versa, making up stories that I actually started believing in myself to justify everything... So I made the simple decision to not lie, ever. I can't even begin to explain properly the freedom of mind it's brought me, and how much simpler and cleaner it's made my relationships and my life in general. It also means that after a while, you'll also never get offended by things. When you don't lie, it's nearly impossible for somebody to undermine you.
Simplify your life. I used to have a fancy place, owned tons of fancy stuff, have very strong opinions about everything that I thought other people were too stupid not to agree with, etc. You start believing that you actually need the crap you buy, then you get attached and worry about said crap. It is, in my honest opinion, a waste of physical and emotional time and effort. Nobody gains from it, least of all you. I've done away with pretty much all of it and am really happy for it. I have more room in my head and in my life for genuine worries (of which there are now very few) and I appreciate the simple things a lot more; the things that most people of all backgrounds can connect with.
This is my 2 cents, but as a fellow weirdo and programmer who's gone through depression and a bunch of other unpleasant things, I thought I'd share how I've become the happiest I've ever been.
(My apologies for the long comment)
by berlinbrown on 2/21/13, 7:57 AM
by berlinbrown on 2/21/13, 7:52 AM
by gcb0 on 2/20/13, 7:53 PM
by EToS on 2/20/13, 6:58 PM
by dreamdu5t on 2/20/13, 6:44 PM
by jcroll on 2/20/13, 9:08 PM