from Hacker News

A breakdown of how I was talked out of $100

by dskang on 11/16/12, 6:30 PM with 173 comments

by tzs on 11/16/12, 8:17 PM
Even better than talking someone out of money is to get them to pay you without even knowing they are paying. A landlord I rented from once did this with the rent, managing to raise rents with most tenants not noticing.
Here's how they did it. Rent was $550/month with a one year lease, which works out to $6600/year.
When the least expired, you had the option of going month to month, or signing another lease. Month to month would be $600/month ($7200/year). However, they said, if you'll sign another one year lease, they'll let you keep the old rate ($6600/year), which will be implemented by giving you one month free. That is, you'll pay $0 for January, then $600/month for the remaining 11 months of the year, bringing the total to $6600/year.
A year later, when it was time to renew again, they told people rent would probably be going up soon, but if they renewed now for another year, they could avoid the increase and just keep paying $600/month.
Since that is what people were already paying, most did not see this as a rent increase. Yet they would be paying $7200 for the year, as opposed to $6600 for the year before--a $600 increase--because this time there was no free month for signing the lease.
by anonymouz on 11/16/12, 8:35 PM
> I was masterfully manipulated, and I have little choice but to admit that I received an unexpectedly expensive lesson in the art of selling.
How would you be sure it was that masterful? From your description it sounds pretty much like a standard sales pitch. It could just as well be that you're simply rationalizing being talked into spending $100 on something you didn't want to buy. You seem to be thinking "He was so good, he even managed to get me to buy this stuff", but the truth may unfortunately just as well be "Gee, I fall for this kind of stuff much more easily than I would have liked/thought".
Doing a postmortem of such a sales-pitch as a target yourself seems to be loaded with subjectivity problems.
by robomartin on 11/16/12, 9:40 PM
Your first mistake was to let an Israeli sell to you.
That's where you lost brother. For that matter, I'll expand that to Middle-Eastern. I have a lot of friends from Israel and some from other ME countries. A lot of them tend to be very good at selling. I never got to the bottom of it. Maybe it's something in the water? I don't know.
I've gone on sales calls with Israeli friends (yes, as an engineer I decided I needed sales training from the best when it came time to sell my own products). We used to play this game that we loosely referred to "Shut-up and sell something". The idea was to see how little you could say and still close a deal. In my early days I tended to talk too much. And, as an engineer, I'd get lost in long explorations of features and even stuff we were planning on doing. I'd loose sales right and left. Then came "shut-up and make a sale". It is amazing how sometimes you can say absolutely nothing. Zero. And make a bigger sale than when you start flapping your jaws. The art is in knowing when to speak and when no to.
Hey you! Yes you. The one reading this thinking that it is a pejorative comment. Stop it! It isn't. It's more of a compliment than anything else.
by jeremymcanally on 11/16/12, 8:53 PM
Reading this and the subsequent comments, I have to ask: am I the only one immune to the this sort of thing? I get approached by these kiosk workers all the time while shopping, and I simply wave and keep walking (possibly reinforcing with a "No, thank you" if they follow me down the path, as they sometimes do). I know it's a high pressure tactic. I know they're selling something that no one actually needs. I know if I give them an inch of attention they'll try to take a mile. It's a well known sales tactic, so I'm puzzled why people continue to get sucked into it.
I'm actually kind of confused why this warrants a post-mortem given that I would hope that no one ever duplicates this sort of tactic in a legitimate business. Let the product sell itself, don't "become the customer's friend" in order to push it on them.
by kitcar on 11/16/12, 8:13 PM
The one additional (and arguably most powerful) sales tactic you experienced was playing with most human's natural desire for reciprocation - the longer he keeps you at that booth, the more of his time you have consumed, and therefore the higher probability that you will actually buy something.
I know I've found myself buying things I don't need in the past because a sales person spent lots of time with me, and I thought "Well, I should reward them in some way for all this time they have given me!", when in reality, that's the whole point of them spending time with me in the first place :)
by harel on 11/17/12, 1:10 AM
As a former resident of Israel I kinda know those people. They are there to do their 'hit' before settling back to 'normal' life. The brief they get is "sell". There are companies that specialise in getting young folk to the US and Europe to sell those product. They promise them the world and a silly salary. The reality is that the salary doesn't translate to the figures promised unless you actually sell like you life depends on it. So they do just that. The dead sea stuff is just one type of product, manufactured by nondescript factories and arguably not so 'dead sea'. There are others who go door to door selling 'made in china' oil paintings that they claim to be the artist of. Others sell gadgets in malls. Others sell whatever they sell. The techniques are similar and they are controlled by a few companies. There are even ads where they recruit based on having a US tourist visa alone (i.e., work illegaly until caught). This got so worst that the US embassy created a short film warning young Israelis of that scam, and the airports in London will hold any young Israeli coming in on suspicion of being a mall-stall fodder. Sorry for the guy on loosing $100 worth of chemicals that cost the seller about $4 to procure (I know this because, alas, my brother from the same mother has dabbled in this in the past). You've been had buyer of cosmetics. The best way to go about it, and a lesson to future cosmetic buyers as this poster, is that you buy if you initiate the purchase, not if it initiated upon you.
by axusgrad on 11/16/12, 9:18 PM
I took his advice and Googled "Dead Sea Cosmetics". Apparently one of the WikiLeaks diplomatic cables had details about a company exploiting young Israelis, to take tourist visas and sell these cosmetics in malls.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5519017/WikiLeaks-delves-int...
by funkaster on 11/16/12, 8:39 PM
I was approached by the same sellers in a mall. I got the exact same samples of "dead cells" cream. It was a lady the one that gave me the samples. Very convincing. If it wasn't because I was with my wife at the time, who happens to be a person that does not bend to that kind of selling techniques (I call it her super-power :P) I would've walked with $100 less, at least.
One bad thing about this selling technique, which might be effective in selling you stuff, is that right after walking out, you feel bad. You know you did not do the right choice and the probabilities of you walking again to buy more stuff from them or telling your friends how awesome these products are is so small, that they seem to aim to one-sell only. Maybe that's why they're so expensive: they know you're not going back for more. It's a cheap technique and it probably is not looking for anything long term... But in any case, you can always move to another mall or create a new crappy-good-looking product to scam more people.
by ericdykstra on 11/16/12, 9:47 PM
If you want information from a salesperson about a product or service without getting into their "selling" mode. Just come up to them and say, right off the bat, "I'm not considering a purchase of this kind for at least 1/3/6 months, but I have a couple of questions about your product."
If it's a bad product or bad salesperson, they'll probably end the conversation quickly, because their whole premise is to catch you off guard and convince you to buy something that you never would if you had 30 seconds to search the internet for reviews.
If it's a good product and a good salesperson, they'll gladly answer your questions and give you a business card. Then you can verify their claims later, and you have a somewhat-trusted contact that you can go back to.
It's a quick way to filter, even if you know you may end up purchasing the product within a couple of days.
This tactic is also a way to quickly stop a potential email conversation with a recruiter, while still being able to have them as a connection. "I'm sorry but I'm definitely not changing jobs for at least 6 months, but thank you for reaching out to me," is enough to do this.
by flatline on 11/16/12, 10:07 PM
People in the US don't know how to haggle, it's just not part of our culture, so you were done from the second you started talking to him. The first step is learning to walk away from something like this - something that may be nice to have, but that you don't really want. You should have given up when he talked you down to $100 for the lot. Seriously, you didn't need or even want the product, why buy it? There is a decent chance he would have come after you and dropped the price though -- that's the first sign you can start talking seriously about price, everything before that is pure profit for him. And if he didn't chase you down, you're not out anything, and can come by later and see if he'll take a lower offer. I've walked away from vendors like this not once but twice and gotten a price at a quarter of what was originally offered as the lowest possible price.
The opportunity to do this kind of bargaining just comes up so rarely, it's hard to get good at it unless you spend time in developing countries. The much harder skill is to be able to do this for something you really want, something you've already made up your mind to purchase. Which is a shame, since this particular skill does come into play all the time in the US, particularly when it comes to big purchases like cars or houses where bargaining is expected. We have a weird culture.
by PaulHoule on 11/16/12, 9:11 PM
I had this happen at the mall that's a few blocks from Union Square in SF.
For me it was a guy who tried to sell me $800 of tooth whitening services and ultimately sold me two tubes of toothpaste for $20. Once he got me to sit in his chair and talk about myself he hung on tenaciously. It was clear he had authority to mark prices down to 25% of the first price he gave and he'd give you half of that off in cash and give you the other half by doubling the product on you.
I was shocked when I walked away then the next guy asked me if I knew about the dead sea salts and I told him "Yeah, some guy put them on my hand in the mall years ago and it felt great but then 15 minutes later my hands felt dried out and awful."
You might say the guy from White Science is a brilliant salesperson, but if you look at Yelp you'll see people are generally not happy with the products and services that they get there.
by intellegacy on 11/16/12, 10:28 PM
In my observation, people who believe they are not susceptible to advertising or sales pitches are actually more susceptible than they otherwise would be. If you don't acknowledge you can be influenced, you're less likely to notice when you ARE being influenced. And you don't have to be hit on the head by a sales tactic to be influenced either. It often comes in subtle ways.
by thisone on 11/16/12, 8:58 PM
Sales guy tried to embarrass my boyfriend into buying a huge watch once by questioning his manhood. "A real man can carry off a watch like this"
I burst out laughing and asked the salesman, in no uncertain terms, if he would like to borrow my tape measure.
by gergles on 11/16/12, 10:10 PM
I just walk off. If anyone follows me through the mall screaming at me (which has happened, at the very same mall listed here!) I immediately go complain to mall management..... who do nothing, because apparently a gimmick kiosk selling $2 bottles of goo for $100 pays them a lot of rent.
One mall I went to in semi-rural Ohio had it right -- the kiosks had little boxes taped on the floor around each kiosk, and the hucksters weren't allowed to leave their box. It was easy to go to a mall to shop, not to be yelled at like some kind of third-world bazaar.
by alan_cx on 11/17/12, 6:10 AM
With out getting too specific, there is a vulnerability the buyer can exploit. The sales man has spent ages with the buyer rolling out his well learned techniques. This is helped if the buyer uses up as much time as he can bare. Which means unless he makes a sale, he has totally wasted his time. Time is money.
So, just at the point where he has totalled up his oh so great deal for you, and just as you are about to pay for the items, stop. Turn to the sales man and offer a deal of your own.
Two things happen. You have just taken control back of the whole sales routine, which suddenly changes your position completely not least because it refreshes your own sense of control. And second, the sales man is totally set off balance and facing the loss of the sale and his time. You can give a whole load of his patter straight back. "Because you are such a great sales guy, I would hate for you to lose this sale", "This offer of mine is a one time offer, could go home and order this lot much cheaper on line", etc.
At that point I start by offering 25%, yes 25%, and seeing where he wants to go. My reasoning for the low percentage is that is sends out a message about how much I value the product, and that despite everything the sales man has said, it hasn't worked. But, I might buy at a value I feel is right for me.
Having done all that, the pressure is off you, and you are freed up to make a rational decision, and being back in control makes it much easier to say, "No, thanks, but I'll pass today."
by elliottcarlson on 11/16/12, 8:43 PM
While this may not be the case for all of the dead sea related skin care booths (though I know it accounts for a large chunk of them in my area) - these people often have major quotas to reach in exchange for the room & board and small pocket money they get in exchange. A lot of them are brought to the U.S. with the promise of a job lined up and when they get here they are in a small apartment with 5 or 6 others. Just a slight insight as to why they are often so aggressive in their sales pitches.
by Joeboy on 11/17/12, 11:46 AM
On a bit of a tangent, if anybody's ever wondered why innocent people would incriminate themselves under questioning by the police, bear in mind that the police have much, much more leverage at their disposal than a skin care product salesman.
by dave_sullivan on 11/17/12, 3:03 AM
That's an interesting story. There's a great book called spin selling that mentions some study where they tried to look at the effectiveness of closing tactics like the ones you saw.
They found that for reasonably inexpensive purchases (a $300 camera for example), the hard close can work quite well. But for more expensive, complex purchases, like million dollar software contracts, the hard sell is pretty much the worst thing you can do.
For more complex sells, it pays to uncover and explore the true expense associated with a problem and paint a picture of the user continuing with current product (their competitors put them out of business) vs your product (they put their competitors out of business).
Just don't break out the calculator, offer the one time only special deal, or do anything else from the school of 24 hour fitness gym membership sales training unless you want to get kicked out of your prospect's office.
by tlrobinson on 11/16/12, 11:52 PM
Usually I'm immune to mall salespeople, but literally the exact same thing happened to me a couple years ago. Same products, same mall (SF Westfield), same tactics, Israeli salesperson. They've got the formula down to a science, apparently.
The only difference was the salesperson was a cute girl and I was single at the time...
by jakejake on 11/17/12, 12:35 AM
I'd say the OP was a rather gullible customer. The salesman didn't even have to resort to the next level, which is when they try to make you feel guilty for taking up their time. Or try to make you feel like a cheapskate because you won't buy their product for your child, date, etc.
by jyap on 11/16/12, 8:29 PM
This is pretty funny. I was just in SF in June and was waiting around that booth for about 20 minutes while my wife shopped. Overhearing the guy (must have been the same guy Adir) was certainly interesting.
It would start off with the free sample push, often targeting older ladies. "Young lady, free sample for you." Then when there was eye contact, "Where are you from?". Then the sales pitch began in full force.
by fratis on 11/16/12, 10:27 PM
When I worked in a mall, I'd get accosted by these guys on a daily basis (on my way to lunch). I developed the perfect response to their inevitable "Hello, sir! How are you?"
"I'm doing great! So well, in fact, that even Dead Sea products couldn't improve my day!"
by droithomme on 11/16/12, 11:59 PM
Good article. $100 is definitely a fair price for a private tutorial session in sales techniques taught by an experienced professional.
by squarecat on 11/16/12, 9:12 PM
The author should stay FAR away from car dealers.
by ajtaylor on 11/16/12, 11:45 PM
This happened to me last Christmas! Those guys (it was a woman in my case) are super effective in their techniques. I had absolutely no intention of buying anything as I was walking by. My first mistake was responding to their question as I walked by. My second mistake was not continuing on my way through the rest of the mall.
Luckily, I DID manage to get a refund for the products later. I claimed that my wife was allergic to the things I had bought. The sales ladies were skeptical when they say the packages were unopened, but nevertheless I got a full refund - somehow.
by conover on 11/16/12, 8:44 PM
A man named Joe Ades used to do something somewhat similar in Union Square. Apparently he was well known.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCUct4NlxE0
by EGreg on 11/16/12, 10:13 PM
"With the new number 69 seducing me, my strong “no” quickly changed to a “maybe”, and then to a “yes”. "
This is not the first time I was seduced by the number 69. There's something about that number that's seductive. Like how all the cable TV packages are $69. I wonder what it is about that number that is so attractive to everyone in the US -- it doesn't seem to be that way in other countries.
by lani on 11/16/12, 9:08 PM
$100 worth of education, that will remain seared into the brain ?
you should get a paper out of it and sell the technique it to retailers ... i see a lot of kahneman/ariely patterns here... how about if you string them up in a nice if-else style decision tree ...
by valhallarecords on 11/16/12, 9:09 PM
I've talked to this exact same kiosk in the SF Westfield before as well. The saleswoman was very very persuasive. I eventually walked away, and she made me feel like I was a mean person haha.
by brk on 11/16/12, 8:45 PM
I ran across one of these kiosks recently while walking through a mall in Waikiki with my wife.
Same basic pitch (and the dude had a very similar name), including lots of "touching" of your hands, which helps make that connection.
From the minute we made eye contact I pretty much knew it was going to be a high-pressure sales tactic. I let him do his spiel and offer us all the tremendous discounts, then thanked him for his time and left.
by ruswick on 11/17/12, 2:27 AM
I find the ease with which people can be manipulated to be fascinating. This individual was far too trusting and lacked adequate discernment or awareness.
I buy things based on one tenant: don't trust anyone who attempts to take your money, ever. All commerce is done based on an imbalance of value, and the ability for one party to unilaterally leverage that gulf to make money. Moreover, the customer is diametrically opposed to the salesman. Their goals are antithetical to one another and their objectives are mutually exclusive. The seller wants to take the buyer's money and give them as little value as possible, yielding more lucrative margins; the buyer wants to acquire as much of a commodity as they can for as little money as possible, heightening returned value.
A capitalistic society is just a myriad of people trying to take whatever they can from everyone else. Sometimes we forget that.
by aneth4 on 11/16/12, 9:39 PM
Yelp reviews are fascinating for showing how effective these tactics are. I guess Israelis are as scientific about their sales as their martial arts.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/dead-sea-premier-kiosk-san-francisco
by kaila on 11/17/12, 8:56 AM
I spent many years working in shopping malls, and while I was there I learned a few fun things about the kiosk folks. It's apparently really common for them to only come to the US for the last few months of the year, set up the kiosks in malls, make a bunch of money, and then go back home. I'm not sure why, but Israel seemed to be a really common country of origin. The mall management in the malls I worked in were okay with the aggressive sales tactics (including following after people) from the kiosk people because they made so much money for the mall itself.
The best way I learned to deal with the kiosk people was to just not make eye contact and keep walking if they said anything to me. Rude, but effective.
by jimmar on 11/16/12, 9:57 PM
I went used car shopping two weeks ago. I was genuinely looking for a car, but the social scientist inside of me was equally curious to observe the sales tactics. I understood many of their tactics to try to get me to sell myself the car. But I didn't get one thing: handing me off to several different people when it was obvious I wasn't totally sold on the car I liked best. I'd find myself talking to a new person about the price I'd be willing to pay. Or I'd have the floor manager show me around. And before leaving, the sales manager wanted to introduce me to some random guy I'd never talked to before. Why I would want to meet that guy, I have no idea.
by willhsiung on 11/17/12, 10:36 PM
Had a similar experience at Walt Whitman Mall in Huntington, NY (Long Island) when I visited my mom for Thanksgiving a couple of years ago. The lady at the kiosk selling something similar gave me a sample and pestered me to buy a package. Don't remember the excuse I gave for not buying, maybe pointing out I was from out-of-town or just wasn't interested.
Haven't had any problems with other mall kiosks with such sales pitches, so it appears those selling "Dead Sea skin care" products may be in some network where vendors are given a consistent method of selling.
by DigitalSea on 11/18/12, 4:42 AM
These Dead Sea Costmetic stalls must be everywhere. The same kind of cosmetic stalls are very prevalent in shopping centres here in Australia. They employ people with French accents usually and well, I think someone trying to sell you something in an accent also helps brainwash you into a purchase.
The calculator part of this story gave me a chuckle. For those who have been to Bali before (well any part of Indonesia, Thailand and those kinds of countries) bartering is in their blood and they too employ the same techniques using a calculator to sell you stuff.
by ari_ on 11/18/12, 10:53 AM
Here's a very easy way to get out of a Dead Sea cosmetics selling pitch: Say: "shalom, ani merusut haHagira, efshar lirot et Ashrat HaAvoda Shelca?" Translates as: Hello, I'm from Immigration, can I see your work visa?
Also in the USA there's no such thing as No Refunds No Exchanges - if you pay for something by credit card you have extensive consumer rights regardless of the merchant's policies.
Finally, the real reason these sales pitches work so well is they MAKE SKIN CONTACT - and there's something about the actual physical touching that makes the sale a lot easier.
by drivingmenuts on 11/16/12, 8:07 PM
We had a skin-care salesgirl parked outside one of the Apple stores here in Austin. They really will try almost every trick in the book short of actual physical assault to keep you from leaving.
by yarianluis on 11/17/12, 7:08 AM
This story particularly illustrates why I avoid going into places with a selling mentality (most places in malls) and prefer to shop in places with a completely customer-centric perspective (what I call the REI model).
One easy way to find such places is to look for lack of pay by commission. REI and Apple are too relevant examples. However a lot of the time even stores that pay based on commission will have a larger customer focus than a sales-pitch focus. Nordstrom is one example that comes readily to mind.
In short, be careful where you shop.
by r00fus on 11/16/12, 8:45 PM
As someone hailing from an emerging foreign country, I usually find these kind of encounters very uncomfortable and feel almost allergic to any sales process.
The pricepoints ($100) make things much worse. Not sure about you but once I get to 3 $digits, there's an approval step required by my internal auditor even if it's just a "sticker price" that will be talked down.
I tend to avoid these situations by all means possible, even if it means taking a less efficient route to my destination.
by chimpinee on 11/17/12, 12:31 AM
I used to find it hard to walk past 'chuggers' in the UK (people collecting for charity in the street). I managed it but it was unpleasant. Why? Because I'd have to steel myself into a kind of Beast in order to break free from their psychological tractor beams.
I eventually worked out that if they were exploiting basic decency and human contact, that's fine. I'll smile and wave, even reciprocate compliments creatively, and then walk past.
by rizzom5000 on 11/17/12, 7:01 AM
The Yelp reviews on these kiosks are interesting (dead sea premier kiosk). Lots of one-star ratings and rants about smooth-talking sales people taking money from the, ahem, innocent who are now filing complaints with FTC etc. I had to laugh out loud.
It reminds me of this olde English phrase, "If they pay a penie or two pence more for the reddinesse of them..let them looke to that, a foole and his money is soone parted."
by damian2000 on 11/17/12, 6:12 AM
One of the biggest upsells I ever had launched on me was when purchasing a new car. After signing the purchase agreement they immediately put me into a different office with a stunning looking blonde woman who upsells additional protection products such as 5yr warranty extension, window tint, fabric protection etc. Trying to say no to all of it is extremely difficult at that point.
by polynomial on 11/17/12, 2:48 AM
Oh, I thought this was going to be about Kickstarter.
by coffeedrinker on 11/16/12, 10:04 PM
One piece of good advice: "A good deal today will be a good deal tomorrow."
Live by that advice and you will always be free to walk away and think about it.
by cerebrum on 11/16/12, 9:35 PM
How to these sellers learn this stuff? Do they get some instruction or do they just learn by trial and error? Any info on that?
by crusso on 11/16/12, 10:01 PM
Never make eye contact with mall kiosk workers.
by janoulle on 11/17/12, 2:22 AM
This mirrors my experience with a Deep Sea salesman. Same setup: pop-up stand in a busy mall and I made the mistake of locking eyes with the salesperson. I 'lost' $75 and after a brief period of kicking myself, I couldn't help but marvel at how I was manipulated to buying the creams.
by ww520 on 11/17/12, 2:18 AM
I guess the ultimate challenge would be to go to a free timeshare vacation and endure the sales pitches there. I've heard people with their mind set on not buying ended up buying the timeshares at the end.
by olleicua on 11/18/12, 7:46 PM
Consumers are so stupid. Do you really have such little sense of self worth that you'll let yourself be scammed like that?
by gsibble on 11/17/12, 1:51 AM
Bought the same exact stuff from the same guy at the same mall.
Actually works really well. But damn do they have the tactics down.
by ipince on 11/17/12, 3:43 AM
Funny. A few months ago I was subject to the exact same pitch. Everything exactly the same. As I read I thought "wow, these cosmetics companies got this down to a science." Turns out it was the same company, so who knows.
The only difference was that my salesman was in fact a woman, a very good looking and flirty woman. At the end of the day I didn't buy anything and I could feel her hatred towards me. Left a bitter taste in my mouth.
by languagehacker on 11/17/12, 3:26 AM
"I was duped" didn't cover it? Had to make it a homework for one of your MBA classes?
by indiecore on 11/16/12, 8:48 PM
I wonder if you could make a game out of trying to regame these guys. Maybe as training? Try to be as obstinate as possible for as long as possible while not getting outright rejected.