from Hacker News

Live facial recognition cameras may become 'commonplace' as police use soars

by c-oreills on 5/24/25, 5:03 PM with 143 comments

  • by beloch on 5/24/25, 6:56 PM

    We may need laws that treat these cameras as something like a wiretap. They can be there streaming their data to data stores, but accessing that data would require warrants that are limited in scope. The data could be used for answering specific, legally justifiable questions, not for everyday surveillance and profiling.

    e.g. It would be valid to use these cameras to answer who was at a crime scene, when, and where did they go that day. It would not be valid to reconstruct a web of everyday associations stretching back months for someone just because an officer didn't like the way they look.

  • by masfuerte on 5/24/25, 6:45 PM

    A similar thing happened with automatic number place recognition. With no public debate the police built a nationwide network of ANPR cameras. The Information Commissioner opined that it was probably illegal. But rather than recommending prosecutions, he recommended that the law be changed to legitimise the police law breaking.

  • by Teever on 5/24/25, 5:51 PM

    This is unavoidable and the only way to mitigate the negatives is sousveillance.[0]

    I reject claims by law enforcement that this will lead to making their lives less safe and that they will need to take steps to mitigate it including wearing masks and not giving out their names.[1]

    In small towns of old every knew the police and judge, where they lived and which schools their children attended because their kids may have even sat next to them in class. This was fine and served as a moderating force for the worst impulses of law enforcement.

    [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance [1] https://calgaryherald.com/news/calgary-police-service-doxing...

  • by caditinpiscinam on 5/24/25, 8:32 PM

    Cities are banning face coverings too.

    https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-ski-mask-ban-bala...

    At this rate they should just make everyone wear a big QR code containing our names and social security numbers on our shirts. A sort of license plate for people. Would save on processing power at least.

  • by smcin on 5/24/25, 7:49 PM

    The US's first "Cop City", the $117m Atlanta Public Safety Training Center, officially opened April 29, 2025, despite years of opposition and a suppressed effort to get a referendum against it on the ballot. [0] Did not get any discussion here on HN at all. [1] characterizes it as "a massive, militarized police training compound in the Weelaunee Forest in the southeast outskirts of Atlanta" and lists its security partners as Flock Safety (automated license plate reader (ALPR) vendor, #58 fastest-growing company) and Motorola Solutions. [1] lists its Corporate and Nonprofit Foundation Donors and Sponsors: finance, real-estate companies, Acuity Brands, AT&T, Cushman & Wakefield, KPMG, McKesson, Invesco, Rollins, Synovus and others, Arthur Blank Foundation, The Bierenbaum Family Foundation, Connolly Family Foundation, The Goizueta Foundation, of Atlanta, Robert W. Woodruff Foundation, of Atlanta, O. Wayne Rollins Foundation, of Atlanta, J. Bulow Campbell Foundation and others.

    (FYI the parent Guardian article is about England and Wales, not the US. There is a similar level of surveillance cameras but comparing use of force to the US, police in England and Wales only fatally shot 2 people in 2023/24 [2], 24 deaths in or following police custody and a further 60 fatalities defined as other deaths during or following police contact. for which [2b] is a report with demographics.)

    [0]: "Atlanta’s controversial ‘Cop City’ training center opens after years of fighting" https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/crime/at...

    [1]: "The Companies and Foundations behind Cop City" https://afsc.org/companies-and-foundations-behind-cop-city

    [2]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/319287/deaths-during-or-...

    [2b]: https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/our-work/research-and-stati...

  • by Buttons840 on 5/24/25, 7:43 PM

    Technology seems destined to bring everything to light. My only wish is that those in positions of power are the first to be dragged into the light.

  • by kwertyoowiyop on 5/24/25, 6:26 PM

    This will make murder mystery shows harder to write. Even now they usually put in some line about how they don’t have traffic camera coverage in the critical area, and they ignore getting location data from suspects’ phones.

  • by darepublic on 5/24/25, 11:26 PM

    I feel like law enforcement increasingly relies on automated surveillance , ie traffic cameras. But for brazen crime (ie duplicated plates) the fines and enforcement is spotty and weak. So the net result is very strict punishing justice for the regular public and a shrug of the shoulders toward determined criminals

  • by ceinewydd on 5/25/25, 12:17 AM

    This isn't really surprising from the UK. If you go back 15-20 years, taxing a vehicle to drive on public roads used to involve displaying a "Tax Disc" in your windscreen, on the off-side of the vehicle.

    They abolished this system in 2014 [1] because they'd long since reached saturation of permanent Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) readers [2] from >11000 cameras on UK roads, and scanning over 50 million vehicles per day.

    It's also common to have 'Average Speed' systems on major roads and even country roads where the accident rate exceeds a threshold defined by the local councils. Those will issue you a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) and points on your licence for a moving violation if you exceed the speed limit. Beyond the 'Average Speed' infrastructure is a giant number of fixed cameras which measure speed and capture imagery of your vehicle, number plate, and the driver and automatically issue the PCN for speeding, and mobile vans operated by the authorities and deployed anywhere they consider a "hotspot".

    All of this costs you money immediately to pay the PCN, costs you money over time because insurers hike their rates, and after 2-4 violations in 36 months, can result in you losing your ability to drive and trigger an extended "retake driving test" (after your disqualification period).

    This is much more draconian than the United States where in many states a moving violation (like a speeding infraction) will only be processed by a policeman pulling you over for a chat.

    [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vehicle-tax-changes

    [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number-plate_recogni...

  • by _DeadFred_ on 5/24/25, 7:22 PM

    The Unites States just approved what, 20 billion, to build infrastructure for a new national police people identification unit? Just like the patriot act after 9/11, the giant new 'ICE' budget is going to transform America, and not in a good way. And that 20 billion additional for internal policing is never going away, just look at the TSA. And mission creep will set in, just look at FISA courts and 'parallel reconstruction' now being the norm and no one cares.

    I tell my kids this isn't normal, this isn't what the US used to be like, but they don't know any different, so to them giving up just a little bit of this (like we did with the Patriot Act) isn't a big deal.

  • by electrondood on 5/25/25, 12:30 AM

    While men claiming to be ICE get to wear plainclothes and gaiters/face masks as they snatch people off the street without presenting identification or a warrant.

  • by amelius on 5/24/25, 7:35 PM

    What is this slippery stuff on this slope?

  • by budududuroiu on 5/25/25, 3:07 AM

    I find it funny that the people that are outraged by ULEZ cameras as “control of the state” are always silent on issues such as facial recognition or Chat Control.

    Idk, maybe people should start vandalising these cameras

  • by Oarch on 5/24/25, 6:25 PM

    Will they ban all types of face coverings? I couldn't imagine this happening in the UK, it's too culturally sensitive.

    In which case, what good does it do?

  • by hd4 on 5/24/25, 10:44 PM

  • by jdkee on 5/25/25, 2:27 AM

    Despite the Supreme Court ruling in Carpenter v. U.S., courts have generally given persons less rights to privacy when in public. States such as Illinois have an informed consent model of biometric data gathering.

  • by lenerdenator on 5/24/25, 8:07 PM

    Tyranny can always come. All you can do is be ready for it to come to you.

  • by octo888 on 5/24/25, 7:58 PM

    This will achieve 3 things:

    1. No reduction in crime

    2. A huge chilling effect on the innocent population, further subduing people and paving the way for more authoritarianism.

    3. Large amounts of profit for a private company

  • by tippytippytango on 5/24/25, 10:10 PM

    False positives for this tech is absurdly high and law enforcement treats it like it’s perfect. That’s enough of a reason to make it illegal.

  • by galacticaactual on 5/24/25, 6:45 PM

    What say all of you who worked on the AI that powers this?

  • by vladms on 5/24/25, 7:04 PM

    Let's not ignore though that there are some people with some control. These systems do not appear because of a small conspiracy but because a lot of people think they are OK and don't bother to understand the issues and organize to fight them.

    I know an ex-policemen that is a good man but hated working in the police because the "public" was aggressive and were challenging them constantly (would not name the country or specific stories). From their point of view "automatization" would make police job safer and easier, and convincing them of the contrary has few chances.

    The more "not-connected" is the society (with people not having a friend that is "a policeman", "a firefighter", "a teacher", etc), the more problems we will have no matter the technology...

  • by ineedaj0b on 5/24/25, 10:21 PM

    too bad im not a female who wears a burka.

    closest thing we have workable day to day are gaiters (balaclavas imo don't work outside cold winter months, gaiters you can where in hot weather too - get it wet, it'll shed heat)

    still doesn't help with the eyes. or your gait. and face masks have people rolling their eyes at you and likely will for the next 5-10 years, despite sorta working if you're sick.

  • by archagon on 5/25/25, 4:25 PM

    N95 masks regain popularity.

    RFK Jr. bans all masking in public.