by hyperbrainer on 4/27/25, 12:34 PM with 117 comments
This is an especially hard ask, given how useful the FP-like features of Rust are, and I find it almost impossible to live without them. Basically, I am looking for a middle ground between C/Zig and Rust.
One such language I have found is Austral[0]. What other such languages are there?
[0] https://austral-lang.org/
by khaledh on 4/28/25, 1:02 PM
¹https://0xc0ffee.netlify.app/osdev
I, too, have been looking for a unicorn systems programming language, but it doesn't exit yet. Here's what I looked at so far (only languages that don't rely on a GC):
- C: lots of UB, less safe (memory- and type-wise)
- C++: too complex, not a big fan of OO
- Rust: too complex, gets in the way when writing mostly unsafe kernel code
- Zig: Good, but syntax is too noisy; lacks interfaces/dynamic dispatch
- Swift: Doesn't have a good bare metal story
- D: Seems interesting, I may be looking at it (although need to use betterC mode, i.e. not all language features)
- Odin: Game programming focused, small but growing community
- Ada: Strong candidate, but it has too much ceremony
- Pony: I like the capabilities model, but tiny community
- Hare: Also tiny community, lacks polymorphism
- Hylo (Val): Experimental (mutable value semantics), too immature
- Vale: Experimental (regional memory management), seems stalled
- V: Good candidate, but mixed reviews on its claims vs. reality
- Austral: Experimental (linear types), tiny community, not much progress
- Jakt: Built for Serenity OS, not sure if it's getting enough attention
- Jai: Focused on game programming, good reviews, but currently closed source (beta)
- Mojo: (Python-like) Seems very interesting and I'd give it a try, but too focused on GPU/parallel programming; also too early for adoption
by codr7 on 4/27/25, 1:04 PM
A programming language is always going to make some kind of compromise; better at some things, worse at others.
Simplicity/power and safety pull the design in different directions.
by tiffanyh on 4/27/25, 1:40 PM
by shakna on 4/27/25, 1:24 PM
I absolutely adore Ada [1], but the Pascal-syntax isn't for everyone.
I haven't used it yet, but have been hearing rumblings about Odin [2] a fair bit in these kinds of discussions. I tend to avoid too many symbol-heavy langs, but it's probably still less than Rust (I use a screenreader half the time).
by andrewflnr on 4/27/25, 1:46 PM
by thih9 on 4/27/25, 1:25 PM
> Austral is a new systems programming language. It uses linear types to provide memory safety and capability-secure code, and is designed to be simple enough to be understood by a single person, with a focus on readability, maintainbility, and modularity.
by efficax on 4/27/25, 1:34 PM
by sn9 on 4/28/25, 1:17 PM
[0] https://ocaml.github.io/ocamlunix/index.html
[1] https://matt.might.net/articles/best-programming-languages/#...
by modeless on 4/28/25, 4:06 PM
Yes, this is a real project that really works. It can compile real and widely used software written in C including SQLite, OpenSSL, and CPython, giving them true memory safety without escape hatches.
by jedimastert on 4/27/25, 9:16 PM
by fpoling on 4/28/25, 12:56 AM
For memory safety compared with Rust it does not use a borrow checker for the price of more checks and extra memory usage at runtime while avoiding GC or even reference counting.
I think this is very interesting trade off. Plus there are plans to implement few interesting ideas that even Rust type system cannot implement while keeping the language simple.
by gwbas1c on 5/5/25, 9:38 PM
C# was kinda-sorta for this; as long as you're targeting an environment where GC is acceptable. (IE, as long as you're running in user-mode, as opposed to writing a kernel or a driver.)
It does allow for C-style pointers, which might be useful if you need to call a lower-level system API. (Unfortunately, you can't just suck in a header file.)
One thing you might miss is how errors, in Rust, are 0-cost. C# encourages exceptions over error codes, and throwing an exception has a much higher overhead than panic, because it captures a stack trace and allocates an object. (I must admit that I like Rust's error handling over C# because it differentiates cleanly "anticipated" errors versus exceptional situations.)
by oconnor663 on 4/28/25, 2:44 PM
by pjmlp on 4/27/25, 2:16 PM
Then you have FreePascal, as FOSS ObjectPascal dialect.
On Apple's turf, Swift naturally, given its bindings for all Metal anything frameworks.
by carterschonwald on 4/27/25, 1:11 PM
by mparis on 4/27/25, 11:46 PM
One project I’ve seen that I don’t think is particularly active but that I really like the ideas behind is borgo. It compiles to go (thus GC) but is decidedly more rustacean.
Check it out. I hope someone makes something like this wide spread.
PS. I have no affiliation with borgo, just an online fan.
by sargstuff on 4/27/25, 8:48 PM
ASP[0] was old way to do character animations for unix finger command .plan.
Recall HN post using python to do the same (handled animation independent of serial terminal speed).
Related HN post "John Carmack's .plan file" [3]
hascii mation [1]; Use standard graphics techniques and run through [2] or .plan with unscii[4]
"sheltered code" via mindcraft : https://youtu.be/7sNge0Ywz-M
------
ascii animation tutorial : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5v-NS9o4yc
[0] :Ah, ASP link has been merged with /dev/null. :(
ASP and related things for animated .plan : https://superuser.com/questions/253308/scrolling-plan-file
[2] : https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/converting-image-ascii-image-p...
[3] : "John Carmack's .plan file" : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3367230\
[4] : unscii : http://viznut.fi/unscii/
by noam_k on 4/27/25, 2:29 PM
I don't remember specifics, but there are some odd footguns to look out for.
by tiu on 4/27/25, 2:19 PM
and the related discussion https://lobste.rs/s/c3dbkh
Serious total MSLs that have a defined memory model to allow "low level" operations seem to be scarce if not any. Hence I do not think there is any single one that comes between C/Zig and Rust.
I would have said https://www.hylo-lang.org/ but, personal opinion, seems like there is too much going on as well. See also https://vale.dev/
P.S Mind mentioning what FP-like features are in Rust? (Genuinely have not looked into Rust that much but I am interested).
by pron on 4/27/25, 1:25 PM
Just remember that even if writing memory-safe programs is your goal, using a memory-safe language is just a means to that goal, and even Rust isn't really memory-safe. Many Rust programs try to achieve memory safety while using a non-memory-safe language (be it C or unsafe Rust), and there's an entire spectrum of combining language features that offer sound guarantees with careful analysis and testing of unsafe code to achieve a safe program. On that spectrum, Zig is much closer to Rust than to C, even though it offers fewer guarantees than Rust (but more than C).
by SloopJon on 4/27/25, 3:02 PM
If you want the simplicity of C with more safety, maybe tooling like Frama-C, a MISRA C conformance checker, or just aggressive use of static and dynamic analysis tools like ASAN and UBSAN. You can also disable certain optimizations (e.g., strict aliasing) to steer away from some of the major pitfalls of UB.
by hardwaregeek on 4/27/25, 1:35 PM
by SkiFire13 on 4/27/25, 2:32 PM
by markus_zhang on 4/28/25, 12:32 AM
Oh maybe less preprocessing black magics :/
by musicale on 4/29/25, 2:02 AM
by lproven on 4/28/25, 11:26 AM
Modula-2 (e.g. GCC).
Oberon (e.g. Oberon, Oberon 2, Oberon-07, Oberon+.)
by gus_massa on 4/27/25, 2:38 PM
by cyrc on 4/28/25, 9:00 AM
How about Cyclone?
by qwke on 4/27/25, 2:24 PM
by foota on 4/27/25, 2:46 PM
by MelodyUwU on 4/27/25, 4:53 PM
by farseer on 4/29/25, 6:45 AM
by p_ing on 4/27/25, 1:10 PM
by frizlab on 4/27/25, 1:50 PM