by rzk on 4/5/25, 9:15 PM with 210 comments
by palata on 4/6/25, 12:39 AM
I wanted to ask for a raise: I had been working in that startup for 4 years and had never had a raise. I thought "if that book helps me get a raise of a few bucks per month, that will pay for it".
It didn't go as planned: I followed the instructions in the book, my boss spent an hour bullshitting me and I didn't get a raise. So I sent my resignation the next day. The boss called me back, and I got a substantial raise and a bonus (to compensate for the shitty salary I had been having before, it was not a miracle).
All that to say that this book did not make me a pro negotiator. But it made me understand how salary negotiation works (reading it, I felt like a child: it only says common sense stuff, but I had been doing everything wrong my whole life). And it gave me the confidence to actually ask for a raise.
Totally worth it.
[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Salary-Negotiation-step-step...
by ivanmontillam on 4/5/25, 11:28 PM
> I thought to myself: why is there so little actionable advice out there about negotiation?
There's a wealth of actionable negotiation advice if you know where to look, like Harvard Business Review and Harvard Law, First Round Review, among others.
One of the big pieces on negotiation I got from Harvard[0], from their Program on Negotiation. I did not attend Harvard, but reading two or three of their articles a week goes a long way.
--
[0]: https://www.pon.harvard.edu/uncategorized/what-is-anchoring-...
by neilv on 4/6/25, 12:07 AM
It's a very old thing in general, not just in job-hunting.
And sometimes "I have to discuss it with my spouse" is literally for real.
But if someone says it, but the listener doesn't think it's for real, then the speaker sounds like either:
* from a culture in which it's mutually understood as a nicety, not to be taken literally; or
* a bullshitter.
The former is very Californian stereotype, incidentally.
by Pooge on 4/6/25, 6:22 AM
Well, I received an offer from them and I would have undercut myself by 30%.
This is perhaps—or perhaps not—an extreme example, but I only applied what I was told in the negotiation articles and books I've read.
When you read a book, you're going to think "It's just fantasy; no way this is going to happen to me" but if you actually apply that knowledge it can truly work in your favor.
I also declined an offer 2 months beforehand because the salary was ridiculously low, despite being unemployed at the time.
Want is fine, need is not.
by iamleppert on 4/6/25, 1:45 AM
This allows the other party to still feel in control of the negotiation process but tells you two important pieces of information: the first is what the “top” number is for both equity and cash. The second is how much they really are valuing the equity portion.
Depending on the response, you can argue for both higher cash or equity, or both. I often ask what is preventing from giving both higher cash and higher equity? Often times I’ve gotten both.
by stared on 4/5/25, 11:30 PM
It helped quite a lot of people - especially women, who had a mindset that they should accept they should accept the offer. A thought that one can (and should) negotiate was a game-changer. Sometimes they were shocked that an ask for 25% more was accepted with no questions.
by andrewstuart on 4/5/25, 11:30 PM
The key to negotiating is to get to a deal that both parties feel happy with - if you “win” a negotiation through power then you will likely find later you lost when you get paid back for winning through strength.
Here is what I know about negotiating:
1: know in advance the salary that you want
2: aim for a salary that is not at the high end, not at the low end
3: your target salary should be one that you will feel satisfied with if you get the job - you do not want to get the job and then be unhappy and feeling like you undersold yourself an looking over your shoulder for the next job.
4: it is a good idea to ask for a salary range - typically $5K to $10K. you can say "I'm looking for $150K to $160K but it depends on what the role is" - this gives you some room to negotiate and helps avoid overpricing yourself.
5: if you feel that your salary target is fair, then stick to that - when the time comes that they ask you how much you want - state what you want and explain why you think it is fair.
6: if you get negotiated down, explain again that you think your target number is fair and explain why. explain that given that the number is a fair market rate then you're not moving down.
7: be willing to accept that you do not get the job as an outcome of asking for a fair salary - at that point shrug and move on.
8: if you are the start of your career then money should not matter at all - find a job that will allow you to hone your craft and learn key skills - this is the attitude you should have for your first five years. After that, you will be able to negotiate on the strength of your skills and experience.
Remember negotiation of salary should not be about a win/lose attitude - if either party feels that someone won and someone lost, then that will be a bad start to the relationship. Negotiating salary is about finding a salary that both employer and employee feel happy at.
If you are an employer, remember that every dollar you pay ABOVE the requested salary buys you good will and enthusiasm. Every dollar you offer BELOW the requested salary does the inverse. Also avoid the "If you do well we will pay you more in 3 months" - just pay straight up front that amount.
by 1a527dd5 on 4/5/25, 11:30 PM
by parpfish on 4/6/25, 1:12 AM
By the time I get an offer, I already feel like I’m already uncomfortable about all the bragging I’ve had to do to hype myself up. Asking for more in a negotiation is just a recipe for even worse guilt during the onboarding process (which is already a fraught time for feeling like an idiot).
by neilv on 4/5/25, 10:53 PM
I think the 2025 rules will be different, for most US tech job-seekers.
by whall6 on 4/6/25, 1:21 AM
1. I second everything in the article.
2. You would be surprised to learn how important rule #7 is. We would build entire presentations that we would provide to the other side of the table in negotiations just to reinforce our points. Basically putting ourselves in the position of “hey we’re on your side, but look at the numbers; our hands are tied!”. Having a non-confrontational attitude and providing specific reasons for why you are asking for things makes a big difference in negotiations.
(Definitely don’t need to be building presentations for potential employers though… unless it’s for contracts large enough that you’d need a lawyer and wouldn’t need OP’s advice anyways!)
by hellisothers on 4/7/25, 4:21 AM
by hardwaregeek on 4/6/25, 2:22 AM
by 0xbadcafebee on 4/6/25, 3:21 AM
This isn't true. They have no clue how to measure your value output. A company's goal is to make sure it has the staff to get its work done so it can sell its thing. A hiring manager's goal is to find someone to do the thing they don't have time/staff for. They will pay somewhere in the realm of whatever the market pays, depending on the "philosophy" of the hiring manager, engineering director, finance people, etc.
I recently interviewed for two jobs in different locations. Both remote, both companies in mid-tier locations in terms of salary. Same type of job, same kind & size of company, same tech, same problems to solve. One was offering 40K more than the other. I wasn't going to produce 40K more value for one than the other. Hiring and salary is just not a very smart process. They have the budget they have, and the market is what it is.
by aclimatt on 4/6/25, 2:53 AM
- Your #1 goal should actually be knowing the top of the range of what this role is worth in the market. Once you figure that out, the whole "don't say the first number" rule is BS. Set expectations at the high water mark and then your job isn't to negotiate on salary; it's to negotiate if you're worth it
- Now that you know the maximum price this role (or product, or service -- it's all the same!) can be set to, you need to convince the other side that you deliver the requisite amount of value to justify the price. Like the article said, talk about your impact. Your BATNA. Your opportunity cost. All of these things are real and support why you are worth it
Once you transition from negotiating on price alone to negotiating ROI, everything changes. Try your best to solve the asymmetry, set the price and move on, find your leverage, and then make a compelling case. That's how you win
by ein0p on 4/6/25, 3:16 AM
Rule #2: be prepared to walk away
There are no other rules.
by CharlieDigital on 4/5/25, 11:20 PM
> And yet, when people talk about the labor market, they think “oh, a company wants to give me a job! What a relief!” As though having a job were in itself some special privilege for which a company is the gatekeeper.
>
> Dispel yourself of this mindset.
>
> A job is just a deal. It is a deal between you and a company to exchange labor for money (and other things you value).
>
> Negotiating is a natural and expected part of the process of trying to make a deal. It’s also a signal of competence and seriousness. Companies generally respect candidates who negotiate, and most highly attractive candidates negotiate (if for no other reason, because they often have too many options to choose from).
by pjdemers on 4/6/25, 4:52 PM
by foresto on 4/6/25, 1:08 AM
by pkdpic on 4/6/25, 2:58 PM
I think he played a big role for a lot of pre-pandemic bootcamp imposters like me.
But seeing this pop back up on HN I'm wondering how radically the tech world / job market has changed. I've been hiding in kushy underpaid remote jobs basically since the pandemic so I have no real idea whats going on out there.
How applicable is this perspective to the present day market for software engineers? How much have things fundamentally changed?
by renewiltord on 4/6/25, 1:47 AM
In my experience, it isn't about making a $20k more now or whatever. It's about making a million more because you're invested in something worthwhile etc. etc.
by dangus on 4/6/25, 12:34 AM
Never do that.
> Companies will ask about your current compensation at different stages in the process
This is not legal in many states, 44% of the US population lives in states where companies asking your salary is not legl.
Also, the exploding offer advice is terrible. It won't work. The company will just drop the offer. The actual advice is to decide quickly.
I also think that gaining some chump change during the negotiation is somewhat pointless as companies will just equalize salary bands over time.
Let's say you win $5-10k additional salary during negotiation. Great, now your second year's salary increase is only going to be 2% instead of 5%.
I think the real advice in the age of states having salary transparency laws is to not apply to jobs that don't have a salary range listed in the job description.
by ericrallen on 4/6/25, 4:41 AM
The job market in 2016 is unrecognizable to anyone who has had to look for a job recently.
It is absolutely brutal out there right now, and this feels a bit detached from reality.
by Tainnor on 4/6/25, 7:35 PM
In addition, some of this kind of advice has always struck me as particularly US-centric and I doubt it all applies equally well in e.g. Europe. You don't get very far here by not sharing your initial salary expectations early on, I think.
by KronisLV on 4/6/25, 3:03 PM
https://fonts.google.com/specimen/PT+Sans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_Fonts
I'd actually use them as my main programming font if the dot (.) character wasn't a bit too small at smaller font sizes.
by coopykins on 4/6/25, 8:56 AM
I was clear from the beginning that I had another offer at hand, to use as leverage.
by 1970-01-01 on 4/6/25, 3:03 PM
A global recession is happening. Let's see if this advice will withstand the times or will age like milk. I predict the latter; the Great Depression wasn't fake news.
by waltbosz on 4/6/25, 1:02 AM
I tried this while interviewing for my current job and sure enough they shared. Lesson learned: you can ask and the worst they will probably do is say no, but it's very valuable knowledge if they share.
by xyst on 4/5/25, 11:38 PM
But thanks to transparency in pay regulations from states such as Colorado. Pay is advertised up front.
You know what you are worth. Find jobs/companies that fit that ideal number. Then pop off in interview(s).
by __turbobrew__ on 4/6/25, 12:24 AM
And magically I got 25% more TC. Only works for big enough companies with salary datapoints online.
It is kind of crazy how there is a bifurcation of TC between those who bothered to negotiate and those who didn’t. Being on the inside I know there are ranges for positions and if you push you can pretty much always get to the max for your range, obviously the recruiters will not give you a max TC offer right away.
by refurb on 4/6/25, 1:41 AM
I’ve put a few of these into practice and they work quite well.
Once you’ve made it to the offer stage most companies want to close. You have more ability to push back on offers than you think.
by casey2 on 4/6/25, 1:53 AM
by jeffrallen on 4/6/25, 12:47 PM
I waited a day to cool off and think hard, and called the guy back to say, "Your colleagues have selected me, I've proven I'll be able to do this job, and they told you they want me to. I told you, make me an offer. You instead required me to make an offer, and look where it got us? Now do as I asked, make me an offer, and we'll see. I won't be offended, this is a hard post to fill, and we both want this to work, so just try, will you?"
Hardest phone call I ever made, but worth it. I saved my colleagues from having to go find another candidate, and got myself a job I wanted for the right price.
by drekipus on 4/6/25, 2:21 AM
"I feel like I am contributing at least $X value to the company. If I am then it makes sense to pay me that, and if not I'd like to know how we can get there."
It starts a discussion and it's more honest: if I am not worth that much then tell me how I can be more valuable.
I have had a pay rise every year from this conversation but my company is very flexible and successful, so mileage may vary.
I find all other approaches to me gimmicky and tricks, and somewhat dishonest in some way.
by bongodongobob on 4/6/25, 1:00 AM
by iamiamiam on 4/6/25, 3:09 AM
by msteffen on 4/6/25, 4:19 AM
There’s a book on negotiation called “Getting to Yes” that uses a different framework, which became my preferred way to think about negotiation: The goal of a negotiation is to strike an agreement that both parties are happy about. The stereotypical negotiation, “I won’t go a cent below $10,” “well I won’t go a cent above $8” is bad negotiation because even if they meet at $9, neither is happy about it. Instead, the effective negotiator thinks creatively about what would make them happy and asks if it’s available.
As much as I basically agree with it, I would cast the advice in this article differently. Here’s my take, for what it’s worth:
- Re. all the author’s advice about withholding information: you may not be happy if one day you find out that you’re being paid 30% below market (though maybe you won’t care—know what you care about! It will help you negotiate more effectively). The ideal solution here, though, is to know about the market! Consult levels.fyi, talk to your friends, maybe interview from time to time before you’re really looking.
- Re. Don’t be the decision-maker: this is a useful rhetorical tactic, often also called “bad cop,” and it’s not really negotiation-specific but you can bring it into a negotiation if it helps you (at one startup, our co-founder would say on sales calls, “let me check with my sales team” when he was definitely the whole sales team). Honestly, IMO it’s only really useful if you’re trying to placate someone, which you hopefully shouldn’t be when you’re weighing their offer, but you’re welcome to use it if you have social anxiety about pissing off the recruiter (you probably won’t, but I understand the worry)
- Re. stay positive: …yes? The goal is to get to a deal you’re both happy with. If you’re already not happy, then the negotiation is already over. The effective negotiator walks away before getting mad—why burn a bridge over one deal not panning out?
- Have alternatives: honestly this is the main thing. I don’t know how much there is to say but anyone will understand you not being happy with a deal that’s already not your best option.
by semiquaver on 4/6/25, 12:24 AM
by taklimakan on 4/5/25, 11:33 PM
by agold97 on 4/6/25, 5:18 AM
It's pretty basic, but BE FAIR. It goes a LONG way and is (sometimes) hard to clock.
I was offered something in my contract, and I misread the offer (not because it wasn't clear, I literally just skipped over a couple of words). Subsequently, I continued on with negotiations and never mentioned it as a concern.
It wasn't detrimental to my offer, and I knew I'd be fine with accepting that term, but it was sort of an annoying term. I knew if I went back to it after the 3rd round of negotiations and negotiated it, then it just wasn't fair. I later told my boss about it and he appreciated it a lot. I have an amazing and fair relationship with my boss.