from Hacker News

Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

by mzmzmzm on 1/30/25, 2:56 AM with 675 comments

  • by sib301 on 1/30/25, 3:56 AM

    I just listened to the ATC recording from immediately before the collision. ATC instructs the helicopter to pass behind the CRJ. I’m fairly certain a few minutes before that, ATC instructed the helicopter to maintain visual separation, which is common. They typically ask, “do you have the aircraft in sight” and if you respond in the affirmative they rely on you to maintain safe distance.

    I should mention that in the recording you can only hear one side of the conversation, so I don’t know whether or not the helicopter said whether or not they had visual contact with the plane they collided with.

    Either way it doesn’t seem to be the fault of ATC. Of course we’ll know more as additional information becomes available.

  • by twoparachute45 on 1/30/25, 3:40 AM

    It wasn't a police chopper, it was a military VH-60, also known as a "White Hawk" [1]. It's a VIP transport helicopter, the same type that is used to transport the president.

    ~The flight track of the helicopter [2] starts at a property in McLean, VA (edited to remove likely inaccurate info)~

    The chopper was based out of Fort Belvoir, and based on similar past flight tracks, looks like it probably took off from there too. CNN is reporting that there were 3 soldiers onboard, and no VIPs.

    1: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_VH-60N_White_Hawk

    2: https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae313d&lat=38.952&lon=-...

  • by toomuchtodo on 1/30/25, 3:01 AM

  • by nradov on 1/30/25, 3:17 AM

    Obviously it will take some time for the full accident analysis but there have been quite a few near misses lately due to air traffic controller errors. Flight volume has been growing, airspace near airports is more congested, and controllers are overworked. Eventually all of the "Swiss cheese" holes line up. We're going to need to hire more controllers.

    Also, it appears that one of the aircraft was a military (not police) H-60 Blackhawk helicopter.

  • by bryant on 1/30/25, 3:47 AM

    Not that being near DC affords me any kind of right to an opinion, but:

    Given the uptick in near miss incidents across the US the last few years, this is the kind of incident that should've been entirely avoidable through changes in policy from these past events but is also apparently the only kind that can spur along policy changes. I can see a world where the fault is on the VH-60, but absent more information, it would surprise me less to hear that it's the fault of the tower.

    Knowing where AA5342 was in its approach, I see no possibility of the jet being at fault.

    https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL5342

    I'm drawing a lot of early conclusions but it's mostly because I'm just not surprised. Angry as someone who flies a bunch, but not surprised.

  • by duxup on 1/30/25, 4:21 AM

    I sometimes wonder about the value of these news stories on forums and social media.

    It's all pretty much wild speculation with several potential causes already mentioned on this forum.

    News important yes, every rando with a few shreds of factoids speculating, not so much.

  • by 7thpower on 1/30/25, 3:44 AM

    Oh man. I’m in Wichita and am getting a bunch of texts.

    Texted my friends that fly that route regularly and most have texted back.

    It can all be gone in an instant, tell those you love what they mean to you.

    edit: everyone is accounted for

  • by snowwrestler on 1/30/25, 1:31 PM

    DCA has two runways. The longer runway is aligned with the river’s north/south direction at that point, so planes flying the approach to this runway from the south track along the western shore of the river, leaving the eastern shore clear for other aircraft like helicopters. The vast majority of flights on approach from the south [1] use this longer runway.

    The secondary runway is set at a diagonal NW/SE. Planes flying an approach from the south follow the river at first, but then loop out over the eastern shore of the river to line up on that runway. To my eye the radar track of the downed flight follows this path. It’s possible since it was a small plane and only small planes can use the diagonal runway—it’s shorter.

    I mention this because this track takes planes into airspace that is a) usually clear of commercial airplane traffic, and b) directly over military facilities like Naval Research Lab and Joint Base Bolling, which have significant military helicopter travel.

    Basically, I wonder to what extent the helicopter pilot was surprised to find an airplane descending in that location.

    [1] When flights are approaching from the north, the main runway requires a pretty sharp right turn seconds before touching down. Approaches to the diagonal runway from the north take planes almost directly over the Pentagon.

  • by jauntywundrkind on 1/30/25, 4:26 AM

    Anecdotally, the amount of helicopter & air traffic going on around DC has been absurd this month.

    My house in DC has calmed down some but we had a bunch of low flying fighters jets & helicopters for a bit. It's been wild having the house shaken at noon or 1:00 from pairs of fighter jets!

    I've had an in-week around Tysons this week, and it's been wild seeing pair after pair after pair of helicopter flying east towards the city this week. I'm normally up there once or twice a week and usually there's nothing like this.

  • by GlenTheMachine on 1/30/25, 3:56 PM

    I work at a Navy installation on the Potomac just south of DCA. As of 10 am EST today there was a moderate police and rescue presence on the water. There is a significant amount of debris visible floating in the river, and the boats are fishing it out piece by piece. The only things in the air are a handful of helicopters, presumably related to the search operation.

  • by mmaunder on 1/30/25, 4:41 AM

    This will be the worst disaster since Colgan in 2009 which is the crash that upped the hours requirement for ATP pilots from 250 to 1500 even though both pilots had over 1500 hours. I think this is going to be a very big deal and very quickly become a political football. Regardless, this is absolutely awful and extremely unfortunate.

  • by ceejayoz on 1/30/25, 3:22 AM

    Damn. We’ve avoided a US airliner having a fatal crash since 2009.

  • by zombiwoof on 1/30/25, 11:24 PM

    I'm sorry, doesn't matter who you support, but to blame DEI or former presidents for this is just shameful.

  • by vman81 on 1/30/25, 2:52 PM

    If anyone needs a palate cleanser after listening to a depressing ATC recording, I can recommend this heartwarming first time solo flying teenager dealing with her landing gear coming off after takeoff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ5q7Iv5wTM

  • by stall84 on 1/30/25, 4:21 AM

    We really can't have this type of accident, a midair collision happen anywhere in the United States, much less the nation's capital, especially considering the Washington area is some of the highest controlled airspace in the country. DCA has been a high-risk airport really since the jet-age, and I have a feeling this might be the end of it as a major passenger airport (at least for Part 121 operations). DOT/FAA are really going to need to step up after this and figure it out, for good. I hope there are survivors but it is really cold in that water right now, look up Air Florida flight 90 for a completely different accident, but in a similar time of the year.

  • by r00fus on 1/30/25, 4:01 PM

    I wonder if this administration's firing of many FAA civil positions and the federal worker "buyouts" are responsible.

  • by teractiveodular on 1/30/25, 7:13 AM

    To put this in perspective, this is the first fatal crash of a US commercial airliner in 16 years (Colgan Air Flight 3407 on February 12, 2009) and the first fatal commercial airliner crash in the United States in 12 years (since Asiana Airlines Flight 214 on July 6, 2013).

    We like to throw shade at Boeing, the FAA etc, but this is still an incredible accomplishment, especially given the explosive growth of traffic over those years. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, there were far fewer flights but multiple crashes every year was the norm.

  • by hindsightbias on 1/30/25, 4:13 AM

    I believe the Marine aviation unit supporting the WH operates from the navy base east across from DCA. You can watch them training from the terminal.

    Not sure how they or the Army transition the approach ends to the runways, but it’s really close.

  • by JTbane on 1/30/25, 5:47 PM

    Real talk, the helicopter was operating night VFR, right? How is this safe when the jet is moving extremely fast relative to the chopper and the only separation is a visual reference to some navigation lights?

  • by tjohns on 1/30/25, 4:25 AM

    Radar replay: https://x.com/avgeekjake/status/1884823071611363833

    UHF feed with comms from the military helicopter: https://archives.broadcastify.com/44114/20250129/20250129200...

    - 5:41 - AA5342 is given instructions for circling to 33

    - 6:45 - PAT-25 reports Memorial

    - 7:06 - Tower gives PAT-25 traffic advisory, PAT-25 reports traffic in sight and requests visual separation

    - 8:08 - Tower asks PAT-25 if they have the CRJ in sight. PAT-25 again reports traffic in sight and again requests visual separation

    - 8:23 - Crash occurs

  • by readthenotes1 on 1/30/25, 3:26 AM

    The video makes it look like the helicopter crashed into the airplane, not the other way around.

  • by sega_sai on 1/31/25, 7:50 PM

    For the record:

    January 20: FAA director fired

    January 21: Air Traffic Controller hiring freeze

    January 22: Aviation Safety Advisory Committee disbanded

    January 28: Buyout/retirement demand sent to existing employees

  • by lysace on 1/30/25, 3:17 AM

    A CRJ700 crashing into a Black Hawk sounds bad. :/

    FR24 shows helicopters from various agencies doing many laps around the site, presumably looking for survivors.

    https://i.imgur.com/SykzxUA.png

  • by third_rate_econ on 1/30/25, 4:36 AM

    Could be a relevant DEFCON talk: https://youtu.be/KYuBf2HpXJg?si=srOl5T6CY6Lg8HZQ

    Sounds like maybe the ADSB was on in this case though.

  • by kjellsbells on 1/30/25, 11:21 PM

    Sad all round, and I hope that the NTSB, who are pretty good at getting to the bottom of things without getting into finger pointing, will do so.

    That said, DC airspace is complicated as hell. You've got very heavily restricted airspace over the city immediately east. VIP natsec/military base facilities on the other side of the Potomac. There are major highways to the north, west, and south of all the approaches. The standard route and safety corridor is along the Potomac river, which is heavily trafficked at all altitudes, with commercial, law enforcement, military, and VIP transport. The CIA is 5 miles up the river and is hardly gonna thank you for dropping out of the sky with no notice. Not an easy place to fly.

  • by andyjohnson0 on 1/31/25, 12:33 PM

    PPRUNE has a long thread about the accident at [1]. Usual mixture of perspectives, mostly well informed I think.

    [1] https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/663888-aa5342-d...

  • by dmtroyer on 1/30/25, 6:52 AM

    Are pilots landing at DCA conditioned to ignore TCAS warnings on approach? Would there have been one?

  • by kranke155 on 1/30/25, 10:52 PM

    A real tragedy.

    Here on HN someone mentioned after a recent (last year) near miss that the US system was overloading the system and that some tragedy might be incoming. Maybe of the most insightful and heart breaking “competency crisis” related posts I’ve encountered.

  • by user_7832 on 1/30/25, 7:30 AM

    It’s probably really early to ask, but in case anyone here is knowledgeable and has any idea: why didn’t TCAS help avoid the accident? Isn’t it designed for such situations where 2 aircrafts collide? Do military crafts not have it or something?

  • by nycdatasci on 1/30/25, 3:46 PM

    AV Herald has a great summary and discussion: https://avherald.com/h?article=52374362&opt=0

  • by reaperman on 1/30/25, 3:40 AM

    Does anyone have the flight path for the helicopter? (Tail number PAT25). FlightAware doesn't show it but it might have been tracked by open source ADS-B receivers.

    This helicopter was often utilized for VIP transport.

  • by Yeul on 1/30/25, 5:25 PM

    "Trump blames diversity rules under his predecessors, saying he believes people were hired for air traffic control roles who were not qualified - but offers no evidence for this"

    From the BBC. I swear to god they made 4chan president of America.

  • by TheRealPomax on 1/30/25, 4:46 PM

    "Commercial jet collides with helicopter during landing", while not the article title, would be far more accurate.

  • by deadbabe on 1/30/25, 3:33 AM

    Gruesome, in a crash like this, if there were any survivors from the impact, the water would likely have finished them off.

  • by gepardi on 1/30/25, 5:53 PM

    Why is a Blackhawk helicopter Performing a “training flight” at night very close to DCA?

  • by throw0101c on 1/30/25, 5:22 PM

    "FAA Got Rid of Its Leader Before D.C. Plane Crash—Thanks to Elon Musk":

    * https://newrepublic.com/post/190942/faa-no-leader-dc-plane-c...

    "FAA Administrator Quit on Jan. 20 After Elon Musk Told Him to Resign":

    * https://www.thedailybeast.com/faa-chief-michael-whitaker-qui...

    "The FAA is facing a major crisis without a leader because Elon Musk pushed him out*

    * https://www.theverge.com/news/603113/faa-chief-musk-dc-plane...

  • by rich_sasha on 1/30/25, 8:39 AM

    Maybe not related at all, but I can't help but wonder if this is affected by the funding turmoil. Would a less distracted ATC controller prevent this?

  • by mzmzmzm on 1/30/25, 2:56 AM

    A passenger jet originating from Kansas collided with a Blackhawk helicopter midair near Reagan National Airport on Wednesday night.

    Flights at the airport have been halted.

  • by johnneville on 1/30/25, 3:08 AM

    appears to have collided with a helicopter

  • by RA_Fisher on 1/30/25, 7:49 AM

    Another horrible cost of militarism.

  • by windowshopping on 1/30/25, 7:34 AM

    The real question, I feel, is whether the current U.S. government as it exists in 2025 is still capable of continuing to improve things, and whether it's still putting all the lessons of the past into practice - or whether we were just coasting on a combination of luck and the vestigial safety left to us by the diligence of the past.

  • by hammock on 1/30/25, 3:55 PM

    I was a controller at DCA for 8 years and this is a normal operation with Helicopters using the Helicopter routes.

    The problem I see is the controller asked the Helicopter if they had the CRJ in sight, but he never said WHERE HE WAS OR WHAT HE WAS DOING! The controller should have told the Helicopter that the CRJ was circling to RWY 33. The helicopter said he had him in sight, but he really had the Jet in sight that was landing on RWY 1.

    Had the controller told him: Traffic ahead and to your left landing runway 33 is a CRJ report him in sight, then the helicopter crew would have LOOKED to their left and saw him. They unfortunately were looking straight ahead at a different plane.

    The controller is going to take a major blame for this one unfortunately for not being more detailed. Those Helicopters literally fly directly in the path of those RWY 33 arrivals so as a controller you have to be EXACT!!!!

    Another problem I see is the expectation bias. As controllers in that scenario, we want to hear the Helicopter say "traffic in sight and we will maintain Visual Separation. These Helicopter Pilots know we need to hear them say that (it's required), so they will say this just because even though they might not really have the aircraft in sight. They are just saying what we want to hear. If they don't, then we stop their forward progress or make them turn out. Comment from instagram

  • by theGnuMe on 1/30/25, 4:56 AM

    Maybe the military shouldn’t fly training flights there. Just an idea.

  • by wnevets on 1/30/25, 2:53 PM

    Whose idea was it to gut aviation safety?

  • by outside1234 on 1/30/25, 3:29 PM

    The Boeing-ification of the federal government, in which everything is stripped down to below what is actually required to be safe, is in full effect.

  • by gonzo41 on 1/30/25, 4:33 AM

    I know that everyone crosses all altitudes during landing. But why don't ATC / FAA stratify aircraft type and use by altitude. Like all commercial traffic is put in even thousands altitudes. And the Military / EMS gets the odd thousands.

    Its crazy to have things colliding like this.

  • by stall84 on 1/30/25, 4:12 AM

    In any event, unless the weather was IMC, where neither aircraft can see because of weather/cloud, which I'm deducing is not the case if they were allowed to maintain visual separation, the ultimate responsibility for maintaining separation is with the pilot(s) .. But as I posted, we should not have this happen anywhere in the United States in 2025 & much less the nation's capital. Hopefully DOT and FAA get to work, but I have a feeling that will be the end of DCA's usefull life as a major passenger airport.