from Hacker News

WP Engine Reprieve

by program on 9/27/24, 9:23 PM with 79 comments

  • by cyral on 9/27/24, 10:13 PM

    This is not going to end well for Matt. Remember the dispute is between WP Engine and Automattic, not the WordPress foundation (the .org). Blurring the lines between the foundation and his for-profit competitor to WP Engine (confusingly called WordPress.com) is not at all in the spirit of open source. Maybe he will be successful in his trademark claim, despite the foundation saying that using "WP" was okay for a decade, and then deciding to update the trademark terms to say it is confusing (again, ironic). His other claims about WP Engine not being "real wordpress" is one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard, considering his own competitor also disables features unless you pay. The feature he is upset about (post revisions being disabled), is literally a one line change in the config. Isn't the whole point of wordpress to be super customizable and moddable? It's one of the greatest strengths of the software, and it's open source, changing the defaults should be expected.

    Edit: Oh I forgot about the part where all of these posts are being published on the .org, so they appear in the dashboard of every wordpress install (including WP Engine, until they disabled the news). I'd love to hear from a lawyers perspective on how this sabotage gets into unfair competition and tortious interference. I think that is going to make the trademark thing more difficult to take to court, knowing that WP Engine probably has good grounds to countersue for actual damages at this point.

  • by ericb on 9/27/24, 9:56 PM

    At what point is snide, petulant, childish, vengeful or blackmail ever a good way to do business?

    Reading this, the last thing I'd want to do is ever be in business with this person.

    The WP Engine side seems much more reasonable to me. There are approaches where he could present the "low contributions" grievance, and even take some action on it, without seeming awful, but this isn't it. Even this "gesture," which could have been almost magnanimous, comes off as still awful because of the childish screed.

  • by brycelarkin on 9/27/24, 10:45 PM

    I can see Matt’s point of view. Data transfer fees are expensive, especially at WordPress scale. Automattic probably covers a lot of that cost that wordpress.org is incurring and wants WP Engine to pay their fair share.

    WP Engine also seems to do some other “not in good faith” things such as change the woocommmerce Stripe attribution from wordpress.org to their own Stripe account.

    While the legal dispute is on trademark, I think it’s really on WP Engine profiting on wordpress.org without giving back. It’s not illegal, but blacklisting WP Engine isn’t illegal either.

    Automattic is essentially subsidizing a private equity backed company. I’d be upset and frustrated too if I was in Matt’s position.

    If you support WP Engine, you’re supporting Silver Lake Private Equity.

  • by ninjastar99 on 9/27/24, 9:58 PM

    Great work making the train-wreck worse, Matt. This whole situation is cringeworthy and makes me 100% dedicated to never trusting Matt or Wordpress with any important project, ever again.
  • by seriocomic on 9/27/24, 9:37 PM

    I've found myself staring at this in-progress train-wreck of a spat in the past 24/48 hours. Honestly, the childish tone of @matt's posts on this, the silly C&D from WPE, all show real immaturity from people and companies that should know better.
  • by walkingmiller on 9/27/24, 10:46 PM

    "Remember the dispute is between WP Engine and Automattic, not the WordPress foundation (the .org)."

    While you can disagree with Matt's approach, it actually feels like this dispute is more between WP Engine and the WordPress project than it is between WP Engine and Automattic. WP Engine not contributing to the project hurts Automattic a little, but the largest, most profitable companies in the WordPress ecosystem not contributing to the project are an existential threat to the sustainability of the Open Source project.

    Companies will always optimize for profits, and contributing to an Open-Source project is only profitable when you are in it for the long run. And we all know that PE firms (which play an important role in our economy) are not in the game for long-term gains. Silver Lake is doing what they are meant to do — maximize profits in the short-term so that they can turn around and sell WP Engine for as much as possible.

    Matt is using the leverage he has to ensure Silver Lake is forced to do something that is good for the WordPress project but will never happen because it cuts into WP Engine's P&L.

  • by angoragoats on 9/27/24, 10:47 PM

    Not sure if Matt ever reads HN, but in case he does I’d like him to know that I will never use or recommend Wordpress again as a result of all of this garbage. I hope the internet at large can move to something else and WP can eventually be consigned to the dustbin of history.
  • by InsomniacL on 9/28/24, 8:37 AM

    This guy is an utter tyrant.

    > It saddens me that they’ve been negatively impacted by Silver Lake‘s commercial decisions.

    He blocked IPs with no warning, that's why they're impacted.

    > WP Engine was well aware that we could remove access

    He doesn't say ~"we warned them we could could remove access" and speaks that volumes.

    > Heather Brunner, Lee Wittlinger, and their Board chose to take this risk.

    I very much doubt they choose to take this risk.

    > We have lifted the blocks of their servers from accessing ours, until October 1, UTC 00:00.

    The timing of this is designed to have maximum impact on WordPress users hosting on WP Engine. They now have to work the weekend to update their site and this tyrant can say he restored access just long enough to negate any security impact.

  • by mvellandi on 9/27/24, 10:24 PM

    All this reminds me of a much more minor spat years ago when Matt got upset Chris Pearson made a configurable premium theme (Thesis) which controversially went against the GPL license. Matt then purchased the domain thesis.com and tried unsuccessfully to revoke Chris’ 3 trademarks related to the name and ‘diy themes’.

    In this current case, it looks like Matt is thankfully trying to ensure end customers don’t get unreasonably affected. But nonetheless, it certainly appears WP.org should at least be relationally more of an independent entity with a separate leadership, or at least appear to be so.

  • by gamblor956 on 9/27/24, 10:53 PM

    Matt's behavior is the reason I stopped making plugins for WordPress years ago and went into law.

    Not surprised to see more of the same from him, and this farce that WordPress is granting WP Engine a "reprieve" when it's really the case that WordPress is doing this to avoid a lawsuit that would result in the loss of its nonprofit status.

    WordPress is run primarily for the benefit of Matt. The IRS regards that as "private inurement" and it has bad consequences for both the organizations at the individual(s) receiving those benefits.

  • by ronsor on 9/27/24, 9:33 PM

    This dispute continues to escalate and I can only conclude that both parties are acting like fools.
  • by crabique on 9/27/24, 9:41 PM

    How does one spin up a mirror of the entire WordPress.org registry, not to mention keeping up with plugin/theme updates that are uploaded there by the respective maintainers?

    Furthermore, does WordPress even support custom resource registries?

  • by papichulo2023 on 9/27/24, 10:00 PM

    Why would they need a license agreement with wordpress.ORG? the trademarks are owned by the foundation as far as we know.
  • by appendix-rock on 9/27/24, 11:05 PM

    Hopefully this aides WordPress’s slow but definite walk toward irrelevance. Maybe what we end up with will have proper governance instead of what can only be described as a deranged child at the helm.
  • by mtlynch on 9/27/24, 11:04 PM

    What's outlandish about this situation is that Matt blocked WP Engine customers, not WPEngine itself.

    It would be one thing if WPEngine had an API key so that customers on its servers could access wordpress.org. Even then, it would be a slimy move to cut off access by surprise as part of this dispute rather than offering 30 days to migrate away.

    But Matt is offering this free service to the world to encourage growth of WordPress, and now that he's in this dispute with WPE, he's acting as if WPE is a client who's not paying.

    Meanwhile, Matt designed WordPress so that it takes a hard dependency on wordpress.org and doesn't make plugin servers configurable. If it's such a burden on Matt to serve traffic to WPE customers, why is there zero support for mirroring the repository or pointing WordPress instances at third-party mirrors?

  • by _q6hy on 9/27/24, 10:47 PM

    Automattic auto-rejects applications to sign up to their Jetpack WordPress plugin's non-commercial free tier if your blog has so much as a single contact link[1]. This behavior feels greedy in my opinion, and may reflect on other behaviors expressed by Automattic.

    1. https://wordpress.org/support/topic/non-commercial-license-a...

  • by deadfece on 9/27/24, 10:04 PM

    This is not a good look, Matt.
  • by photomatt on 9/27/24, 11:06 PM

    Happy to answer any questions HN folks have about this. Love y'all. :)
  • by elashri on 9/27/24, 10:20 PM

    The only conclusion that I can draw from all drama is that the legal and PR teams at those teo companies are not doing a good Job. Or that they are not given the chance to do their job.
  • by foosantos on 9/27/24, 10:33 PM

    I'm so glad to see such a positive step in this conflict. It really shows how much Matt genuinely cares about the community and how he's willing to take the higher ground. WP Engine sent a cease-and-desist to WP.org, and Matt decided to keep providing the free service to them temporarily, prioritizing end users, even though it increases his costs for WP.org, and without WP Engine stepping back on the trademark infringements.
  • by weirdindiankid on 9/28/24, 5:04 PM

    This is an unfortunate situation. While WP Engine could have been a better actor here, the way Automattic have gone about this has made things vastly worse for everyone using Wordpress.

    As an aside, I’m curious if Wordpress.org are bound to allow WP Engine access to their plugin SVN under some sort of estoppel theory in U.S. law? 72 hours seems like it’d be too short notice for WP Engine to mirror everything, no?

  • by ChocolateGod on 9/27/24, 11:04 PM

    Surely there someone in Automattics other 1,881 employees (Wikipedia) willing to point out how self childish this looks for Wordpress.
  • by pluc on 9/27/24, 10:45 PM

    Goddamn, that's embarrassing.
  • by zoodologist on 9/28/24, 11:23 AM

    This is messed up at another level. Never thought there would be so much anger and abuse in this space. Matt Mullenweg needs to be removed or something else needs to change for the community to survive.
  • by hiccuphippo on 9/27/24, 10:32 PM

    Are other providers safe? How do I know they are not going to block other sites that offer Wordpress as a service? At least this will give me some leverage to tell management to move away from Wordpress.