from Hacker News

Forbes Marketplace: The Parasite SEO Company Trying to Devour Its Host

by greg_V on 9/19/24, 10:44 AM with 299 comments

  • by vgeek on 9/19/24, 6:07 PM

    The same thing happens every 3-5 years. HowStuffWorks, About.com (now like 10 different domains), many IAC acquired properties, RedVenture sites, even random sites like LiveStrong.com will be wildly prominent when the domains historically aren't relevant or authoritative for a given niche.

    Even recently, sites like CNN were using subdomains with affiliate offers managed by third parties(1). These sites weren't being de-ranked algorithmically-- someone at Google would have to apply a manual action to remove them from the SERPs. What incentive would there be to do so if a prior agreement was in place?

    Google doesn't really care about discoverability for smaller domains that may have good content. They are either being risk averse (avoiding potential spammers, junk AI content) by favoring trusted domains, favoring brands who are likely to spend on display or search ads, or maybe a combination of these.

    1) https://searchengineland.com/google-begins-enforcement-of-si...

  • by ghaff on 9/19/24, 8:04 PM

    Forbes as a whole basically sold its soul for clicks. It used to be one of the three top business magazines depending on your preferences. After the web became dominant, at some point after Malcolm Forbes died, you ended up with a ton of blog writers--with plenty of biases and axes to grind--and essentially advertorial content.
  • by graeme on 9/19/24, 1:34 PM

    Very good article. Not clear to me why Google has let parasite SEO become so successful. Possibly they are starved of human generated content kept to a certain quality level. But it's very strange to see sites leveraging a legacy brand to expand far beyond their expertise. Forbes is the most prominent example.
  • by EricE on 9/19/24, 7:24 PM

    One of the best things about Kagi search (https://kagi.com) is you can ban domains from search results. Forbes was one of the first I entered!
  • by arn3n on 9/20/24, 12:46 PM

    An aside about Forbes: I used to be subscribed to a few of their newsletters. About two years ago, I would notice that nearly all the newletter content would say something along the lines of "as reported by The Information" and I realized that a huge portion (>60%) of the newsletter content was just summarizations or rephrasing of articles from The Information. Which, I mean, great that you're citing your sources, but are you really providing a service here?

    I just read The Information, now.

  • by smusamashah on 9/19/24, 10:39 PM

    There are 2-3 very detailed articles on how only a few media companies that own top few hundred domains have spammed SEO and hijacked top spots in search results. I made a list of block-able domains (dot dash meredith sites only). I have roughly explained how I searched these domains. https://gist.github.com/SMUsamaShah/6573b27441d99a0a0c792431...

    Just copy paste this list to UBlacklist (or other tool). Need to sit down and search and add more sites including forbes someday.

  • by ramesh31 on 9/19/24, 4:12 PM

    It's coming for all the old "legacy" web names with strong domain ranking and decades of backlinks. Private equity is snapping them up as fast as possible, loading them with ads, and bleeding the brand dry.
  • by JumpCrisscross on 9/20/24, 5:44 AM

    Meta comment: I consider myself pretty adept at finding things people don't want to be found in securities filings, registration records, et cetera. The author is uniquely competent at this as well.
  • by darby_nine on 9/20/24, 1:15 AM

    Google basically destroyed itself when it decided to become an ad network rather than a dumb pipe you pay to access. You have to pick a base to sell to. Selling to two different bases at once (advertisers/seo and actual users) means both resent you and neither respect you.

    When google gets split up the whole world will cheer.

  • by MisterBastahrd on 9/19/24, 4:50 PM

    I implemented something similar years ago for the publisher I worked for. Like 2006ish. It was after Katrina, I'd never had a full time dev job, and I created it as a POC to show to my employer that they could invest in me full time as a developer (I was helping put their magazines together when I wasn't working on their CRM).

    I created a marketplace with finely tuned SEO for my employer to advertise (and charge) companies in niche industries. My SEO was better than the SEO of the developers who worked on their sites, and our audience was obviously much larger than theirs, so we ranked higher. Any time you would search for the company name or the product type in a certain geographic area, you'd find links to our pages dominating the search results.

    One of the interesting things is the shenanigans some of these companies would pull to show up first in our local results. A whole lot of A1 and AAA names began to spring up as they decided that if the list was going to be alphabetical by default, then they needed to be the first in their category.

  • by coliveira on 9/19/24, 9:01 PM

    It's not just Forbes that is using this strategy. Many traditional media sites, including CNN and USA Today are running the same type of content. And of course they'll not report on this issue, which might just well be why Google is doing this, a kind of kickback for traditional media.
  • by jeffwask on 9/19/24, 5:36 PM

    I miss the days of a searchable internet
  • by visarga on 9/20/24, 9:50 AM

    When I am using Chrome on the phone to read the Google Discover news feed I am often horrified how shitty the experience is. Popups, cookie warnings, almost no article is visible initially, and some of them actively make it hard to scroll to the text. It looks like there is no use friendly news site left in Google's feed. I prefer LLM slop, thank you very much. The only attractive proposition is the fresh and targeted feed. Probably Google is not allowed to offer a reading mode that hides the cruft.
  • by ericmcer on 9/19/24, 6:49 PM

    "So we have $29M in annual revenue on an average of 3.4M searches per month in 2021." Is this real? That averages out to 40m searches, so .75 per. It seems insane to get close to $1 per search. I figured the return was closer to a penny or even a fraction of one.
  • by itissid on 9/19/24, 4:37 PM

    Actually googling some of the terms from his post and seeing Forbes up there is oddly surprising, even after reading it all.
  • by miki123211 on 9/19/24, 5:24 PM

    Is this an US thing? This has to be an US thing, right? How come I've literally never seen this in the EU?

    I usually search in English and find SEO spam somewhat often, but never from these brands.

  • by aaa_aaa on 9/19/24, 9:02 PM

    In Turkey, all searches hits to newspaper sites. Its like a sad joke. Related page is full of repetitive garbage where information is hidden somewhere.
  • by fredgrott on 9/20/24, 12:43 PM

    People, Google is not in the Tech business....

    Its tech powering an search and ad monopoly....

    Things only change when ctr of ads and amount of ads displayed go down.

  • by EcommerceFlow on 9/19/24, 6:13 PM

    BlackHat SEO's have insiders at many of these companies that'll publish your article for $X amount of money. Or edit existing articles and insert your URL.
  • by drcongo on 9/19/24, 4:13 PM

    This man is surprised that his google results are terrible. I have to assume this is a frog boiling thing and he's only just noticed the water heating up. Having switched to Kagi years ago, I'm immediately horrified by the state of Google if I ever end up on it. It's appalling and has been for a few years now.
  • by neves on 9/19/24, 6:04 PM

    Cory Doctorow article nails it https://doctorow.medium.com/the-specific-process-by-which-go...

    It is Google "do no evil" to blame.

  • by 1obituary on 9/23/24, 3:41 PM

    Great Article it's been pretty sad with google for a while, poisoned ad networks thanks for sharing.. I was wondering if you could give your input about nature.com as well they seem to post on hackernews all the time seems like a ranking game as well. cheers
  • by throwawayl3ll on 9/19/24, 9:09 PM

    Just start browsing search results from the second page.
  • by cynicalsecurity on 9/19/24, 5:06 PM

    So, Google can kill their whole business if they simply stop giving Forbes unfair prioritisation in the search results.
  • by scarface_74 on 9/19/24, 10:17 PM

    I just did the “best pet insurance” search and once reputable sites came up.

    - US News and World Reports

    - CBS News

    - Forbes

    - Motley Fool

    The entire web is a shit show.

  • by talkingtab on 9/20/24, 12:42 PM

    In the past I have wondered why Hacker News had so many articles from Forbes. Now I know.

    And this from 2016: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10871410

    [Edit, add link to article about Forbes and Hacker News]

  • by OptionOfT on 9/19/24, 7:02 PM

    This is not that different from this guy who posted how he 'stole' CEO traffic from his competitor.

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38433856

    And it is not that different (albeit at a smaller scale) from what websites like mini partition wizard has been doing. Their sitemaps are full of articles that don't relate at all to their tool:

    https://www.partitionwizard.com/news_en_sitemap.xml

    https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic_en_sitemap.xm...

    All these 'articles' pollute search engines.

  • by CM30 on 9/19/24, 4:47 PM

    Damn, didn't realise that Forbes Marketplace was run separately to Forbes itself. Knew it was always a parasite SEO operation, but the idea of it being a separate company entirely (and how much they tried to hide the fact) is really interesting here.

    But yeah, it's still crazy that this site is even allowed in Google, and that they've shown no signs of cracking down on these types of parasite SEO schemes.

  • by seo-throwaway on 9/20/24, 4:29 AM

    I’ve worked here a while. He’s a bit aggressive about it but a lot of what he says is on point.

    The relationship with Forbes has always been a weird one. The understanding I’ve had was the company was spun off from an effort that kind of started in Forbes but they didn’t really want to deal with themselves.

    It was always an SEO driven content strategy but for a while we had a pretty sizable content apparatus. Really big editorial teams for each vertical, a bigger cultural emphasis on the quality of the content and more collaboration across teams. The editorial teams had a lot of voice in what got published and tried to respect that we were using the Forbes brand and what that meant when we made recommendations or wrote about something. The only thing I’ll say to our (meagre) defense is there are panels of experts that are consulted for recommendations on a lot of products, and the teams that do research for the actual written content (not the affiliate/partner garbage that often takes up sponsored slots) do try and work hard to provide data to meet the demands of the SEO and BD teams.

    A lot of that has changed over the years. The company has grown explosively in the time that I have been here. The company something like tripled its size last year alone. I went from being a newbie on a team of less than ten to a senior member on a team in the mid double digits in the space of a year. The culture has become increasingly bureaucratic and disconnected. We’ve always been a fully remote team but it used to be much more collaborative and cross-functional.

    We don’t hear much at all from leadership. It’s always been a fairly insulated operation from one vertical layer to the other. There have been two pretty big layoffs this year which came out of the blue. Editorial teams have been gutted across every vertical and the strategy has pivoted more and more towards shovelware content and partner posts. The latter being especially frustrating because they are handled by a completely separate team from the editorial team but are formatted to look like our written content even though they’re actually sponsored posts. At a team meeting after the last layoffs the CEO answered a question about the company’s plans and said something to the effect of “if we’re not growing we are dead” which I think is obviously seen in how the company is re-shaping itself.

    It’s been disappointing to say the least. I don’t think any of us ever operated under the illusion we were doing important journalism or anything, but we all seemed to strive to make something good of the system we were working in. I’ve seen and heard of a lot of things I find commendable of my co-workers. Editorial and mid-level leadership have worked for a long time to ensure a separation of biz dev and edit so that they don’t have influence over the written content. I heard of times when BD really tried to push, however indirectly, for partners to get higher rankings in content. As edit gets increasingly sidelined in the business by the SEO content teams I’m not sure how much this is being maintained but I don’t work in that side of the business so I can’t speak specifically.

    All of this is to say. He’s right, we are just ultimately doing our jobs. Unfortunately, I’ve outlasted a lot of people who were hired after me, and up til the layoffs it was very rare for someone to quit. Now more and more of the people who have been here since the early days (even before me) are peeling away. Those of us who stay are seeking more and more checked out. Honestly the benefits are excellent and I think that’s what keeps most of us around but no one is passionate these days.

    That was a super rambling post, but I don’t ever see anyone talking about this place I’ve been at for a while. I wanted to share some insight into our world and get stuff off my chest as it’s been disappointing to watch go down, if not all that unique or surprising.

  • by davidu on 9/19/24, 4:42 PM

    This is such a big story and yet most of HN just doesn't care. It should make the WSJ though.
  • by nurorda on 9/21/24, 12:54 PM

    Why Forbes brand is so powerful? Can anyone share their views on this?
  • by LarsDu88 on 9/20/24, 5:19 AM

    Damn this opened my eyes to a whole 'nother world of online marketing
  • by joshdavham on 9/20/24, 8:45 PM

    Is there a way I can blacklist Forbes from my google search results?
  • by krick on 9/20/24, 4:38 AM

    > As for oversight, Forbes only has 2 board seats. And really it only has one.

    It doesn't matter though. They have permission to use the name and domain, Forbes clearly knows what they are doing and why. If it wouldn't be ok with them, they'd revoke the permission (I'm not sure, but I assume they can, right?) So, yes, you can claim there is an oversight. If anything, Google's definition is a bit clunky, since it doesn't grasp the essence of the problem. But it also shouldn't matter, since it should be pretty obvious there is a problem indeed.

    Now, why Google is ok with that (or didn't notice that) is another and very valid question. I mean, great, Forbes can host whatever bullshit they see fit, but then it would be appropriate for the whole domain to never appear on the first page of Google. Or second. Or tenth.

    But then again, it doesn't seem like Google really tries to battle other, lesser doorways and LLM-generated content. And it's easy to see why.

  • by hofo on 9/22/24, 2:13 PM

    So what? What’s missing is why I should care and what difference this makes to anyone other than the author.
  • by skeeter2020 on 9/19/24, 9:39 PM

    I need the author to tell me again who runs Forbes Marketplace. I assume it's Forbes. It's not?