from Hacker News

Moral implications of being moderately successful computer scientist and a woman

by thread_id on 9/6/24, 4:39 AM with 75 comments

• by BeefySwain on 9/6/24, 5:59 AM

  When I read things like this it feels like reading fiction. Not because I don't believe it (I do), but because it is so far from my lived experience or anything I have perceived.

  It makes me wonder if I just so happen to run in circles that are ostensibly devoid of misogyny or if I am blind to it.

• by dunno7456 on 9/6/24, 11:27 AM

  > For example, my very existence as a moderately young, moderately successful computer scientist threatens some men’s sense of identity, thus making them uncomfortable and/or lash out.

  I'm not a woman, but I faced this soooo many times in my career that now I believe that it's just insecure men feeling threatened by other people's knowledge or capabilities. Usually these people are hiding something and they are not as smart as perceived. Having someone in the room that can potentially unmask that makes them insecure.

  You have to address the behavior the first time it occurs by establishing boundaries otherwise it keeps happening more and more.

  And that is a leadership/management failure to address these behaviors. In all occasions the insecure men were so loud and obnoxious that management prefers not to deal with it and take the easy route by firing the target of the abuse, reinforcing the behavior more and more.

• by scott_w on 9/6/24, 5:41 AM

  The title initially put me off but I’m glad I read this article as it reminds me that the work isn’t even close to finished when it comes to equality in our field.

  And of course the first two comments on the article proved the article’s point…

• by dailykoder on 9/6/24, 10:32 AM

  This needs more upvotes and is a lot more important than apples latest iphone or the newest AI feature.

  I can't judge any of this because I won the gene lottery and don't have to deal with problems like that. It just baffles me that there are humans who get treated like that.

• by cjbgkagh on 9/6/24, 7:09 AM

  “The reason that university politics is so vicious is because stakes are so small.” Henry Kissinger

  Many things kept me out of academia but the number one was not wanting to spent my life arguing with people who do little else. The politics in these orgs are insane and it would be of no surprise that the petty assholes are also misogynistic. But take away the misogyny and they’re still petty assholes which while less bad still isn’t very good. I’m not sure how to fix it. I think this structure of research org is not destined to last anyway so the point is probably moot. Perhaps we will see an era of independent scientists.

• by nxpnsv on 9/6/24, 7:02 AM

  A short, worthwhile read. A mostly irrelvant comment: I think that when writing, it is fine to use ≠ and =. We can be reasonably sure that = means equals and not assignment.

• by Sakos on 9/6/24, 7:19 AM

  > Men, do better! If you are in a position of power and want to be an ally, educate yourself by reading Entitled [3] and doing training on inclusive governance [5]. Even if you think you are a nice guy, there are plenty of other guys out there that are not so nice and dealing with the aftermath is much worse than preventing the harassment in the first place

  I find statements like this frustrating. I do all I can to counter-act sexist behaviour and speech around me. There's not much else I can do. I'm not in a position of power. The people who need to do better are never going to read this and they aren't going to care. So they continue being assholes and I continue to get to share in the blame. It's just demoralising. Whatever I do is never enough.

• by mr_mitm on 9/6/24, 6:46 AM

  I had a short consulting gig in Istanbul once. The meeting room that became my temporary office was right next to their dev department. To my surprise, it was almost entirely comprised by women, including the department manager. I wonder if that was a fluke and if it wasn't, what is the reason why computer science is dominated by men in our culture.

• by benterix on 9/6/24, 6:07 AM

  Having read the article, I still can't relate to the choice of the adjective in the title and subtitles ("moral"). The author also uses the term "moral framework" for some outdated views. These are societal stereotypes and expectations, not moral norms or frameworks. Can someone explain this particular word choice?

• by JackSlateur on 9/6/24, 12:34 PM

  Many of this also applies to men, as individuals. Or maybe I am an exception ?

• by te_chris on 9/6/24, 6:22 AM

  Excellent piece. Read and absorb, then consider, fellow men.

• by throw38384848 on 9/6/24, 6:39 AM

  Articles like this are the reason why I become nonbinary. It is the only way not to be part of patriarchy, and not to oppress anyone!

• by semiinfinitely on 9/6/24, 6:06 AM

  insightful article but I can never tell whether this line is sarcasm:

  > because men are famously good at emotional self-regulation

• by bbarnett on 9/6/24, 7:02 AM

  I have zero issues with raising this sort of dialog, and shining light into cracks that shouldn't exist.

  One problem I have though, is presumed sexism. An example is, this article states:

  Now that I have managed to make men feel embarrassed and insecure, they blame these feelings on me. No one else has made them feel this way before, and because men are famously good at emotional self-regulation, I must be the problem.

  Now first, I 100% agree than in some cases there may be an innate, sexist response here. Some cases. But at the same time, men arguing with men can elicit a response in this way! "No, you're at fault for challenging my ideas! And successfully! How dare you!"

  My point is, I very much believe some of these interactions are laced with sexism, even unrealised or unknown to those perpetrating the act. Yet at the same time, it can just be two humans interacting, and one taking the outcome poorly. Again as a male, I've seen this type of response when established ideas are challenged... including the established hierarchy in a workplace somehow blaming me. Often, I've been told I was too "blunt", or that I "shouldn't publicly embarrass someone". Meanwhile, that embarrassment was derived from someone trying to shut me down, and I simply responded moderately in kind, with fact, not emotion.

  (I'm a contractor, so I engage in new workspaces often, as a being not integrated into the social structure of that workplace.)

  I'm sure this has happened to all of us. Human interaction is not an API with strict protocols. It's very squishy.

  Another issue here is that some humans are just assholes. We've all met them. In such people their assholish behaviour comes out as whatever is most direct and upsetting. With a woman, it's probably targeted as sexism, a place to "hang their attack" on. With a man, it's still there... just personal attacks of a different narrative. You can almost see such asshat's brains working, trying to find the best button to push, the best place to lay a personal attack... because that's all they have.

  I guess what I'm saying is, if you're a woman and currently being hit with what appears to be a sexist narrative, try to keep in mind the "asshole" component, or "things that seem sexist but are just people interacting poorly" aren't sexism.

  And I say that fully without blame. Any human hit over and over and over with something such as sexism, is going to naturally default to this as a reason. But when I read articles like this one, where the dialog is patriarchy and innate male culture, it really doesn't help. It doesn't help, because many men do their best to police such behaviour around them, and in themselves.

  And there are more of us than you think.

  If there weren't, all of the attempts at legislating equality would never have happened.

  So take some solace in this, if you're a woman. We're trying. Some of us, in fact many of us are, so much so that we try to pass laws, we try to stamp things out.

  Take comfort to know it's not all of us.

• by cmilton on 9/6/24, 12:15 PM

  This reads like a male hit piece. It seems the author’s goal is to fight misogyny with misandry. Pot meet kettle?

  Gender nor race are requirements for these experiences. They likely emerge from corporate bureaucracy and human insecurity.

• by mock-possum on 9/6/24, 6:45 AM

  I think, when you’re not a bigot, and you’re not the target of bigotry, it is very very difficult to really get a sense of how perniciously powerful bigotry is, precisely because it makes no sense - bigots can’t really believe what they claim, can they? They won’t really go so far as to act on those beliefs, will they?

  And even when they do, if they don’t do it to you, or do it while you’re watching, you find yourself incredulous that someone would really go and do such a thing.

  Anyway. This is the sort of situation that births subreddits with titles like “are the straights okay?”

• by Xenoamorphous on 9/6/24, 5:31 AM

  > If only I got a penny for every time someone said: you don’t look like a computer scientist

  I’m a guy and I’ve been told multiple times I don’t look like a software developer. I think it can happen to anyone who doesn’t fit the stereotype of nerdy person portrayed in films and TV.

• by Garvi on 9/6/24, 6:53 AM

  The death rattle of a community.