by jseliger on 8/6/24, 12:30 AM with 138 comments
by meroes on 8/6/24, 4:19 AM
The bus eventually went up to $1 per ride but I still think about these two options and wish my town had something like it. With a few small improvements I don’t see why we can’t reasonably subsidize these relatively cheap options in most towns/small cities. The rental car one would be harder, but even the bus would suffice. It notably didn’t stop at any grocery stores, only Walmarts so that’s another thing to improve. But I’d give up my car in a second for that bus back home.
I’m not even sure if this is still their active website http://0060325.netsolhost.com/about.htm but it gives you a picture of what I’m talking about. There’s either another service or a replacement that is $2.00 instead of $1.00 that goes by DCT from what I can tell. I don’t live there anymore so hard to know the current setup. I’m really underselling how good that bus was/is.
by infotainment on 8/6/24, 1:15 AM
If you look at the Honolulu transit project (Formerly HART, now called Skyline), I think it shows everything wrong with US transit projects:
1. It goes nowhere useful, only going to a bunch of random places on the west side of Oahu where no one really goes.
2. It was pitched as an economic uplift project, not a transit project. "If we build a train in these largely-ignored areas, it will help the people there!"
3. It took years and years to build, full of cost overruns, because it was also pitched mainly as a job creation project. You can't sell a transit project based on that alone, so instead they're pitched as welfare or job-creation programs, which creates the wrong set of incentives. After all, if the project takes longer, that's more jobs!
by rayval on 8/6/24, 5:11 AM
Here's some more detail about China, which has the two largest transit systems in the world: Shanghai and Beijing.
In 1993, Shanghai had one line running 2.7 miles with 4 stations. Less than 30 years later, the system had 15 lines, 500 miles of track, and 500 stations. [1]
And in that same time frame, the Beijing subway system was expanded, from 2 lines in 2002 to 27 lines and 500 miles of track, with 13 million riders per day in 2022. [2]
Also in that time, 30 other cities in China got subway systems as well.[3]
In 1993, China's per-capita GDP was $537. By comparison, per-capita GDP in the US was 50 times larger (about $23k). Since then, the gap has narrowed. US per-capita GDP is now 5x of China (66k vs 12k).
China demonstrates that, even with small GDP, if you prioritize the needs of the people over entrenched commercial interests, it can be done.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Shanghai_Metro [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_Subway [3] https://qz.com/1010911/a-beautiful-data-animation-shows-the-...
by giantg2 on 8/6/24, 4:09 AM
Nobody wants to ride public transit that is unreliable/late, has limited service times/areas, prone to strikes, dirty or unsafe, etc. It's easier and/or better to own a car or Uber in most areas. It's not really going to improve since we're stuck in a catch-22.
by twright on 8/6/24, 2:11 AM
I was in Florence not long ago and they are building out a very impressive light-rail network [1]. Twenty years ago a similarly ambitious network was planned in Cincinnati, OH and it was voted down 2-1 [2].
[1] https://en.comune.fi.it/administration/tramway/system.html
by sb057 on 8/6/24, 3:56 AM
by normalaccess on 8/6/24, 1:37 PM
https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2021/geo/popul...
https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/figures/fragmentatio...
I could see local areas like California or New York getting some high speed rail but even then, how many people would use it and where would they be going?
by dado3212 on 8/6/24, 1:21 AM
by Ologn on 8/6/24, 4:42 AM
I was in San Francisco once and the latest Caltrain going from Sunnyvale to San Francisco was before 11:30PM, and the latest Caltrain going from San Francisco to Sunnyvale was three minutes after midnight. In New York PATH trains, LIRR trains, Metro North trains, New Jersey transit trains all leave well past that.
by janalsncm on 8/6/24, 4:27 AM
For political reasons that would be untenable in the US. Therefore we have to pay full price to build a thing we’re not good at building and don’t have the ramped up supply chains to support. If there’s only one company left that builds a component you need, guess what? You pay whatever they ask.
by hnburnsy on 8/6/24, 4:08 AM
Here are some of the current U.S. cities with rail projects under construction:
Los Angeles, California - Extensions to the existing light rail network
Denver, Colorado - Commuter rail lines
San Diego, California - New light rail extensions
Seattle, Washington - Ongoing Commuter rail lines
Minneapolis, Minnesota - Southwest Light Rail Transit (SWLRT) project
by Gud on 8/6/24, 12:45 PM
I have lived in some cities where things are not like this. Where public transportation is amazing and getting better by the year.
It’s a shame every time I read people ignorant how a modern city can function with a pedestrian/bicycle/tram/bus/train. Where it’s quiet and calm.
But how do you convince people who have only seen the insides of cars that public transportation can be superior?
by nathanaldensr on 8/6/24, 6:24 AM
by AlbertCory on 8/6/24, 4:43 AM
The US's basic problem with large building projects nowadays is federalism. There are so many different jurisdictions that opponents can always find some court or legislative body that they can exploit to slow down or stop the project.
Everything else flows from that.
Lawsuits? Too many courts.
Legislative opposition? Too many governmental units. Even if the public as a whole supports it, some jurisdictions will not.
Administrative permit hearings, which go on endlessly? Too many governmental units.
Yes, things used to work better in the US, but things change and all systems decay.
by malloryerik on 8/6/24, 4:21 AM
by ackbar03 on 8/6/24, 5:04 AM
by iJohnDoe on 8/6/24, 4:36 AM
It’s hard in the US because of politics, corruption, favors, contracts for the purpose to burn money, transit other than cars is only for poor people (a US thing), poor people aren’t a priority, reputation for working on transit for people won’t get you reelected by your rich donors and constituents.
It’s kind of a shame because whenever Americans get back from Europe they rave about being able to take the train everywhere.
by codeangler on 8/6/24, 4:27 AM
I commuted to Denver daily from Boulder, CO for three years and never drove during that time.
My shortlist of why I only want bus service to Boulder County ( for reference I typically pick up the bus at Table Mesa).
I only moved to Boulder in 2009 so I know I haven't carried as much tax burden as some people who "dream of light rail to Denver" but I'm very very happy with the FlatIron Flyers.
1. Buses can adapt to weather conditions
- Frequently coworkers training up from the tech center were 10x more likely to have issues with trains when the weather was icy, during the three years that I compiled this list of why I prefer buses.
2.Buses can adapt to other buses on the same route failing
- the RTD train infrastructure has very few places that light rail can pass one another so it doesn't matter if your train is working if the one ahead of your fails
3. Buses do not have routes altered/closed for maintenance
- when I would take the light rail to the company's Parker office or visiting friends it was surprising to have to get off and catch a bus around a section of rail under repair.
- I acknowledge that sometimes specific stops can be closed or moved but rarely is a whole section down and require alternate solutions (i.e. deboarding the train to board a bus to deboard on the other side of maintenance and board a new train)
4. Buses have express options.
- see the comment above regarding the few places that RTD rails can pass other trains
- note when the W line opened the express bus routes were removed, I think that was also true with another line but I can't remember. My favorite part of this is the coworkers I know who used that route started driving because the train was significantly longer commute times.
5. Buses typically have storage for up to six bikes per vehicle and don't block entries of others
- as an avid bike-the-final-mile commuter having storage for bikes that don't hinder other passengers boarding or exiting is nice (if you want to complain that it sometimes means staying at a few stops longer go ahead)
6. Buses Can turn over quicker at end of the line
- waiting for the E Line to swap directions at union station was comically slow when compared to catching the FF2 that just dropped off people and pulled around to pick up.
7. Buses can reroute around accidents that happen.
- E line and other northbound rail had to stop because of a car accident on the I-25 on the other side of a jersey wall where someone died. But the law says all traffic must be stopped from crossing an area of a certain diameter from the accident scene. So the next train had to stop. No place for passengers to deboard in the middle of the railway and blocked trains behind it.
- See comment above where other trains would be impacted as well
8. IMO, The payment and boarding method is a better User experience on the bus.
- this was more true before the mobile app could hold an annual pass
9. I'm sure I could come up with more reasons.
- oh, I'd rather take the AB to the airport than the A-train (sheesh that is a long train ride for such a short distance)
- oh, someone just mentioned the "rich people lane" yes, the bus uses the HOV lane! How great.
10. Air circulation is better inter city buses
When my office opens I'll return to bike/bus commuting. It is a bummer that during covid the express buses have stopped but understandable. The few times that I have bused in during 2020 the added time of FF1 was noticeable. Typically bike/express-bus takes me 50minutes house door to office door
by emsign on 8/6/24, 4:59 AM
by thefz on 8/6/24, 6:14 AM
Public transit does not need to turn a profit, it's a public service. It must provide a service. It is already paid off.
"... but muh capitalism brought me the iPhone!"
Yeah, what about being able to walk your fucking neighborhood though?