from Hacker News

How to get stuff repaired when the manufacturer don't wanna: take 'em to court

by Aaronn on 6/17/24, 6:14 AM with 317 comments

• by r4indeer on 6/17/24, 8:25 AM

  > Now an old fashioned light bulb shouldn't be expected to last a decade, but an oven?

  Funnily enough, there actually was the Phoebus cartel [1] which sought to reduce the lifespan of incandescent light bulbs to around 1,000 hours and raise prices.

  [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

• by promiseofbeans on 6/17/24, 8:39 AM

  We've got a similar thing in New Zealand: the Consumer Guarantees Act. The people who sold the broken thing to you can either fix it, replace it, or refund you the cost of it. The decision is unfortunately up to them, so they sadly often replace things rather than fixing them.

  Consumer NZ is usually used as the independent source for expected product lifetimes: https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/appliance-life-expectan.... Interestingly, they specify 15 years for an oven, which is more than the company in this article claimed electric ovens should last for.

• by jvm___ on 6/17/24, 1:45 PM

  I bought a cool wifi, internet connected picture frame from a thrift store. It had someone else's pictures on it, so I went into the menu and selected "Factory Reset"

  After that it never booted past the setup pages with a "unable to get token" message. I messaged the company who was very responsive but the end result was that they said it was unfixable and to return it to the store.

  It was only $8, but I was looking forward to a wifi connected picture frame.

• by divan on 6/17/24, 8:55 AM

  MHBKD recently made a video on Apple testing lab [1], and one thing he talked about and that was kinda new to me is seeing repairability as a spectrum. I.e. on one side is "indestructible" product and on the other is "perfectly repairable". And that those properties (being hard to damage/destruct and being easy to repair) might be mutually exclusive.

  In a hindsight it seems obvious, still this video was the first time I've heard this verbalized so clearly.

  [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8reaJG7z-is

• by zbrozek on 6/17/24, 1:14 PM

  I have a Rainforest Automation Eagle 200 radio box that pairs with a PG&E meter to enable real time data egress. The onboard software is brittle and the device fails to boot up completely, though it is responsive to local network requests.

  Rainforest Automation is uninterested in debugging it and is offering only a discount on replacement hardware. But this is likely a software problem (I suspect failed certificate rotation to connect to their backend) and I don't want to give them more money.

  I live in California and the right to repair goes live next month. Anybody know how I can use that right to actually get a repair?

• by prmoustache on 6/17/24, 11:25 AM

  > So you have a reasonable expectation that your appliance will last a reasonable amount of time. So how long is reasonable?

  FOREVER. Just design them so parts are replaceable and buildable by any third party and provide the documentation.

• by Tistron on 6/17/24, 7:52 AM

  Does anyone know whether and how this translates to other places in the world?

  For me, it's the most interesting with EU/Sweden. We don't have courts like this do we?

• by graemep on 6/17/24, 8:44 AM

  Similar law in the UK. There is also trading standards who can sometimes help but the small claims court is fairly straight forward. On top of that if you pay with a credit card or any other form of credit specific to that purchase (e.g. a car loan) you also have a claim against the credit provider.

• by thisislife2 on 6/17/24, 8:09 AM

  This is the way. You just need to be patient. Threatening to file a case with the consumer court (India) often gets a better response from big businesses. Though, I am surprised why you are allowed to sue the retailer here (unless they were selling the product under their own brand name)?

• by sneak on 6/17/24, 9:30 AM

  Regardless, you should still never ever buy an HP printer.

  Tell your friends and family.

• by 23B1 on 6/17/24, 7:51 AM

  I'd be curious to hear about stories of this working in the U.S., if ever.

• by tgsovlerkhgsel on 6/17/24, 8:02 AM

  I predict that this is going to get more and more common: Companies enshittify their service, hiding behind impenetrable walls of AI chatbots and useless outsourced template-reply service centers, customers respond by taking one attempt to resolve it with the company and then straight to court.

  If you have a working small claims court system, I can recommend giving it a try. It can be way less frustrating than trying to deal with a company that just doesn't want to.

• by denton-scratch on 6/17/24, 2:18 PM

  TFA describes Electrolux as a mid-range manufacturer. I guess that's about right; their products aren't cheap "break-on-day2" crap, but they're not up there with Miele and Bosch.

  Electrolux is a Swedish company that has quietly bought-up most of the European brands, like Hotpoint and AEG. When you buy one of those brands, you are buying the Electrolux standard of service. The service engineers are a third-party. Last time I looked, there was no contact information on the Electrolux website. And TBH, I think it must be at least a decade since I saw Electrolux-branded products in stores.

  I think Electrolux' business is like those cheapo Chinese companies that buy up good bicycle brands, and then drastically downgrade the product. So be careful if you're buying white goods in Europe: you could be buying Electrolux in mufti.

• by xlii on 6/17/24, 8:54 AM

  I disagree.

  I have a similar situation right now. Washing machine is leaking when load is anything bigger than light load. Initial guarantee claim to Whirlpool was sent 8 weeks ago. It's dead, no response from anyone.

  Under consumer rights shop should refund, but claim is without response for 3 weeks (14 calendar days is upper limit according to EU law + local regulations).

  Today I was supposed to contact the lawyer, but I figured out that f** this s**. It's weeks of legal battle over 300€. They won. Stress enough isn't worth it.

  Oven is a different thing though, as I don't think it's as essential as washing machine (and dragging clothes every week for washing).

  Maybe I should file a claim to refund after it was made, but it's still a net loss. Lesson learned: stay away from manufacturer Whirlpool, don't ever spend a dime on a shop and live on.

• by elzbardico on 6/17/24, 1:18 PM

  It depends a lot of how much expensive is the court on your jurisdiction. If you live in a place with some kind of small claims court, where you don't need to hire a lawyer, yes. If not, your only hope is by pooling with other victims in a class action, in the jurisdiction where this exists.

  Those companies hire a lot of lawyers, have extensive data on customer behavior, court costs and generally know that most people don't have the time and/or the money to sue, and will find that it is more economical for them to just forget the matter and buy a brand new item.

• by nijave on 6/17/24, 10:56 AM

  In the U.S. you can usually file a complaint with the state's Attorney General's office. Sometimes there is a regulatory authority like for utilities or the Consumer Protection Bureau.

  Usually a complaint gets forwarded to the company which requires some sort of authoritative response (which wastes time and money) so you can have reasonable success there.

  Same issue as the article explains, it still takes a lot of time on the consumer side (who wants to be without an oven 2 months while they file paperwork and wait)

• by ilaksh on 6/17/24, 3:28 PM

  I think there is a way to resolve this sort of thing. If there are a certain number of tribunal appointments for the same type of issue, it becomes a criminal case for the CEO.

• by dclowd9901 on 6/17/24, 2:05 PM

  > NSW (and I think all the other states) has a tribunal especially for consumer claims, what used to be the "small claims court" is now the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal, NCAT. It's specifically designed to be low cost and straightforward. You shouldn't need a lawyer and can turn up with your documents.

  I’ve never actually used small claims court in the US. Curious if those who have can answer if it’s a similar experience?

• by jackvalentine on 6/18/24, 2:41 AM

  Of note, Australian Consumer Law applies to almost all consumer products and can have very big $$$ implications for selling defective junk: https://legalwiseseminars.com.au/insights/defective-range-ro...

• by threemux on 6/17/24, 12:45 PM

  If you're in the US, this method isn't directly available to you (though small claims court is and can work), but most (all?) states have a procedure to complain to the attorney general's office. I've found that companies are willing to play ball when they get a letter on the AG's letterhead.

• by buggeryorkshire on 6/17/24, 8:48 AM

  Did the same years ago in the UK with an iPod. Was like a week out of the warranty, I tried to argue it was a premium device - nope, denied.

  Did a claim with MCOL, they waited until the day of the hearing to pony up what I was claiming for, with interest. In the UK the individual gets to choose the venue with MCOL, so they'd have had to send a lawyer to Cheltenham to contest it.

• by navigate8310 on 6/17/24, 8:15 AM

  I've had good success with tweeting the company and explaining how the problem is still unresolved.

• by 6510 on 6/17/24, 12:55 PM

  It would be nice to have a public record of time before repairs, the fees and manufacturer estimates before buying.

  Ideally everything is shipped back to the manufacturer at the end of the life span. Those dates would also be nice to have.

• by iandanforth on 6/17/24, 11:05 AM

  I don't envy Australian's most things but this is one worthy of it.

• by WarOnPrivacy on 6/17/24, 1:39 PM

  What types are harm can go their US Small Claims court? For example, does it have to be a monetary loss or can you sue to address recurring issues or force an exit of contract (w/o penalty)?

• by al_borland on 6/17/24, 11:09 AM

  My dad usually writes the CEO and has pretty good luck getting issues resolved, with a lot less trouble than a court case.

• by greekanalyst on 6/17/24, 9:59 AM

  The EU gets a lot of heat for many things (and rightfully so), but this is an area where it is actually doing wonders in favor of consumers.

  Here is the directive adopted by the EU Council to promote the repair of broken or defective goods, also known as the right-to-repair (or R2R) directive:

  "The directive adopted today enshrines a new right for consumers: the right to have defective products repaired in an easier, cheaper and faster way. It also gives manufacturers the incentive to make products that last longer and can be repaired, reused and recycled."

  https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2024...

• by bartread on 6/17/24, 12:10 PM

  I mean, litigation is fine and all, but what you can do will vary by jurisdiction.

  In the past 14 months I've had to deal with two misbehaving insurance companies, one misbehaving utility provider (overcharging), and a few other things as well that I don't really want to talk about here.

  I did not get to the point of actually having to take legal action but I did have to threaten it in two cases, along with action from the relevant ombudsmen.

  Nothing like this, or on this scale, has ever happened to me before (once, about thirty years ago, I had to threaten a company with small claims for unpaid wages, but that's it).

  There are, to an extent, processes you have to follow before you can get to the point where you are within your rights to threaten to throw the legal book at companies. You usually have to have gone through their complaints procedures and got to what you consider an unsatisfactory result. This in itself can take weeks or months of emailing back and forth, phone calls, etc. You gradually escalate your approach, you cover the internet in bad reviews, you contact your local MP and the local media, and so it goes on.

  Its an exhausting and kafkaesque shitshow and this is with the backing of authorities, such as ombudsmen, who operate with the backing of legislation.

  I understand why you have to do it: because some consumers are vexatious and dishonest. But it takes too long (elapsed) and it takes far too much time (effort) that could be better spent with family and friends (as an example).

  I am currently gearing myself up to deal with the other insurance company, who I haven't so far had to threaten with legal action, and file a police complaint due to some new information that's come to light that shows our insurers, and the advice they gave us, in a very bad light.

  Honestly, I don't know if I can be bothered any more. Taking the actions that I have, well, I wouldn't say they've left us better off, but they've left us much less worse off, because we haven't been taken for mugs... but the cost to my sanity and my soul. I don't know if the juice has always been worth the squeeze.

  And that, of course, is what these companies bank on: that you'll get tired of it all and stop bothering them. It's extremely scummy behaviour, and frustrates me that I have to get to the point of threatening them with legal action just to get them to do the right thing. I strongly resent being forced to act like an asshole just to get a fair outcome.

  I welcome any legislation that helps consumers get to a fair outcome more easily, but I also suggest that we need to look at the question of the obfuscatory tactics companies use to force consumers to jump through ridiculous hoops first.

• by jopsen on 6/17/24, 8:17 AM

  Asking a warranty repair on a 9 years old oven is a bit of a stretch.

  I doubt it'd fly in the EU.

• by dfxm12 on 6/17/24, 1:22 PM

  I went around and around in circles with the Electrolux call centre worker. "So you think an oven should only last for two years?"

  To what end? Annoy the people who are responsible for your predicament. Don't take it out on call center workers.

• by Redneck-Tech on 6/17/24, 9:08 AM

  Absolutely blows my mind how many people have fallen into the trap that is "SMART" devices and "POWER EFFICIENT" appliances. Only to find out just after the warranty runs out that they ultimately invested in a hawt piece of trash. There is no pride in manufactured goods anymore, imho there's not much pride in anything nowadays. Not surprising when a burger engineer at McDonald's makes more money than even an entry level machinist.