from Hacker News

Do not try to be the smartest in the room; try to be the kindest

by jorgegalindo on 6/16/24, 10:27 AM with 247 comments

by codelikeawolf on 6/16/24, 1:11 PM
Ever since that back and forth about "East Coast being kind vs West Coast being nice" thing a while back[1], I think it's important to distinguish the two. Because they are noticeably different (at least to me) and shouldn't be used interchangeably. I want someone to be kind to me in a meeting. I think niceness could seriously inhibit progress. A kind person will tell me that an idea I have won't work, but they'll offer to help me work through it. A nice person will tell me that a bad idea is good, just to avoid conflict.
[1] https://www.upworthy.com/nice-vs-kind-are-east-coast-people-...
by mydriasis on 6/16/24, 12:20 PM
Work is hard and stressful. If we're sweet and kind to one-another, we get through it more easily, no matter how smart each of us is individually. Being kind is an investment, and its dividends pay out enormously as your organization grows. Like the article says, it's infectious. I believe that. I believe that if I show kindness, especially to people who are new to the organization, they'll mirror it right back, and try to show it to everyone else, too.
by baazaa on 6/16/24, 1:24 PM
If we tallied up all technical projects in the Western world that failed, how many would be failing due to lack of kindness versus, say, straight-forwards incompetence? Because 100% fall in the latter category in my experience.
One of the problems with engineers counter-signalling engineering values (like actual technical competence) is that we live in a world where those values are extremely underrated while every manager, HR-bot etc. are already pushing values like kindness.
E.g. if you ever wonder why government doesn't work it's because they're absurdly skewed towards HR-values and opposed to engineering-values.
by vijucat on 6/16/24, 3:51 PM
Nice article. Definitely need more kindness in this achievement society. One small crib, though:
> In Spanish, we have a saying, "Maestro Liendre: De tó sabe, pero de ná entiende." I don't really know (and don't want) to translate it because it loses its punch, but it fits perfectly here.
Wait, why mention it if I, the reader, cannot understand the saying or how it is even relevant to the article, but leave me with the tease that "but it fits perfectly here". Very puzzling, to say the least. Google Translate tells me "Master Niendre: He knows everything, but he understands nothing". Now I'm even more confused. That is so pithy and unambiguous that I really have to ask: what is it about the Spanish version that "loses its punch" when translated to English?!
by growingkittens on 6/16/24, 1:06 PM
I am generally considered to be a kind and helpful person.
There are many situations where a kindness turns to an expectation, which leads to entitlement: suddenly you are the bad guy if you don't go above and beyond.
Being helpful around people who view work as a zero sum game is a recipe for disaster.
This article also reframes "things you should do because it's an advantage to you" as kindness.
by cmsefton on 6/16/24, 12:53 PM
Agree with this wholeheartedly. I think where kindness really plays a key role is not passing snap judgements on people and their motivations. It's easy to interpret people's actions or intentions in a negative light, thinking they don't care or are incompetent. I would also like to add that kindness is not just being kind to other people, but to yourself as well. It's easy to beat ourselves up about the mistakes we make, or blaming ourselves for outcomes that sometimes are beyond our control. We can't be perfect.
For the most part, I like to live in a world where the default position is that we're mostly well-intentioned, rising apes rather than fallen angels (RIP, Sir Terry Pratchett). This is clearly not always the case, and it's important to accept that, but it shouldn't stop me from still aspiring to be as kind as possible in my own life.
by KolmogorovComp on 6/16/24, 1:25 PM
These kind of over-generalist advice are pretty meaningless (especially the title, content being more specific).
You do not always want to be perceived (because that's what you're going for) as kind, it is situation specific.
You do not want to be kind during negotiation, because that means you're usually missing out on a better deal.
You do not want to be kind when dealing with bad behaviour. I've too often seen missing stairs running loose for far too long due to "kindness" from HR, whether it was sincere or rather an expression of cowardliness .
What do you want to aim at all time is respectful behaviour, because that is what could undermine your current position in the conversation. People do not listen to jerks.
by Xeamek on 6/16/24, 12:07 PM
Wouldn't say You have to choose one over another. Smartness without kindness makes you a dick. Kindness without some smartness makes you 'fake', or at least 'valueless'.
by therobots927 on 6/16/24, 1:17 PM
I definitely agree with this article. I’m at the stage of my career where my primary limiting factor is my inability to tolerate situations where it’s clear co-workers aren’t pulling their weight, don’t have the same philosophy I have about a project, or when they disagree about how to implement a solution. And nothing makes me angrier than when the tech lead or director in charge is clueless, which happens more often than not.
Accepting that this is just the way things are is difficult the more emotionally invested you are in your technical work, if you happen to be on a non-technical or semi-technical team. I think this article is helpful for situations where either the pay compensates for bad work culture, or where you’re simply stuck on a team where maybe you are the “smartest” person in the room and it makes you hate your job. At least that’s how I’m interpreting it for my situation.
by laiqtzyx on 6/16/24, 12:11 PM
That is the ideal but the results depend on the work place or the OSS project. I have started out like that twice and was walked over by other people.
Kindness with true reciprocity is very hard to find (I do not mean CoC compliant fake kindness that just keeps the actual power structures in place while everyone is backstabbing.)
by jl6 on 6/16/24, 12:26 PM
Another way of putting it might be that there’s very little you can do to will yourself to be smarter, but you don’t have to go far out of your way to be kind.
(Personally I’m not sure “kindness” is necessarily the right word that encompasses the four qualities listed. Resolutive? Seems like that’s something independent.)
by tomhoward on 6/16/24, 1:41 PM
The problem with content like this is it’s not realistically actionable for most people: it really amounts to saying (if you’re not already a temperamentally kind person), “fundamentally change your personality”, without offering actionable steps to accomplish that.
It also doesn’t wrestle at all with the complexities and tradeoffs of how we deal with people in different scenarios. Be kind to bullies and assholes? There’s a way to do it, sure, but there’s a lot of technique and nuance involved, and this post doesn’t scratch the surface.
by spacecadet on 6/16/24, 12:52 PM
4 day work work, 6 hour days, better pay, the freedom to spend as much time with the people you want, doing the things you want, without fear of financial ruin or bodily injury. Thats what workers want... not for the work place to replace their family. We do not need to be friends, I do not need to be nice to you. This whining comes from people who place work over all else and need work to be something other than it is. A means to an end.
Now, I do not mean passion projects... I mean wage slavery work hell holes... My passion projects and companies are made up of people I trust, have verified their experience. We are nice to each 60% of the time- we understand the other 40% is necessary. We don't take it personally, we brush it off. We are mature professionals, not whiney day care adults.
by steveBK123 on 6/16/24, 1:35 PM
Rarely does one accomplish great things in life alone, or on the first try.
Life is often a game of making sure you have enough at bats to eventually succeed.
From a self interested utilitarian view, people will remember you warmly for being kind and be happy to work with you again / give you another shot, far more than they will if you are smart & difficult.
Being incompetent and kind isn't my suggestion here. It is simply that if you are as smart and hard working as you think you are, it's not that hard to also be a little kind. If it is so hard for you, you may want to try working on it.
by jasoneckert on 6/16/24, 12:42 PM
While I think the points the author makes are sage advice, I think the blog post would have been a lot stronger against criticism if they had added a paragraph similar to the following:
"That is not to say you shouldn't come prepared and knowledgeable to meetings you attend. You should provide clear value to each and every meeting you attend from a knowledge perspective. However, the human value of kindness is far more important in the eyes of attendees."
by pcloadletter_ on 6/16/24, 1:45 PM
Some people here are confused. Kindness towards people doesn't preclude you from being assertive. It doesn't preclude you from being a shrewd negotiator. It doesn't preclude you from provide feedback to an employee who needs to improve performance. It doesn't preclude you from laying off an employee.
by mirekrusin on 6/16/24, 12:35 PM
Being too kind can also be negative, I prefer honesty and reality above the rest.
by ricardo81 on 6/16/24, 12:51 PM
Seems like good common sense. Listen, be respectful, keep an open mind.
To be fair does it not depend on the audience. There's a balance between the audience and an idea you want to push.
Here in YC you can probably go full on with your tech/science knowledge/ideas/theories/whatever and people will judge you purely on your points made, and the people listening are in the same boat.
In another context you may be the smartest person in the room by a long way on a topic and have something constructive to say, but no one else in the room is as competent so you cannot go full on with your YC-like comment and have to balance the knowledge/empathy available of the audience.
I guess in the end it's about ignorance busting and offering some new insights into a thing that other people can appreciate.
by karaterobot on 6/16/24, 3:19 PM
I agree that if you want to persuade people and be successful in the business world, being the smartest person in the room isn't the most important quality. Being the loudest and most confident is. Just say your opinions as though they are obvious facts, and if someone disagrees, ignore them and say your thing again with even more confidence. I do not do this—heaven forbid, I'm too kind to do that—but it's the characteristic I see most successful people sharing... if success is defined as organizational prominence and compensation, rather than more trivial heuristics like a history of your claims coinciding with reality.
by doubloon on 6/16/24, 4:20 PM
"Being nice is the new punk"
yes, this is a huge adjustment for me as old Gen X trying to work with Gen Z / Millenials. I feel like Michael Scott sometimes to be honest... raised in an environment where bigoted jokes, brutal insults, shouting, were the norm and expected, adjusting to being around the new generation which was raised on anti-bullying and therapy. I am glad things are changing, the old ways were very dysfunctional and counterproductive.
Maybe its just the lead poisoning.
by mrfinn on 6/16/24, 2:47 PM
To be kind is one of my specialties. I firmly believe that it's a requirement of any human group so people collaborate at heart. Yes people can be productive anyway without any kindness, but if people really collaborate then they actually multiply their forces and the result is incredibly powerful. If people fight each other that energy is terribly wasted.
by farmeroy on 6/16/24, 5:32 PM
I really disagree with the quote at the end `just a few people are going to miss the smartest in the room, but everyone is going to miss someone kind.` This is true if the smartest person in the room is a jerk, but I don't find that to often be the case. In every group I've worked in, the smartest, most talented people are often _also_ confident in their abilities to the point where they don't have to _prove_ it to anyone. They help the team succeed. The people I am never sorry to see go are the insecure people with a chip on their shoulder who constantly try to prove that they are the smartest, most talented person in the room. They often are not.
The kind or nice person, sure if they are some kind of glue to the team that helps the entire group work together, they don't need to be the highest performers. But incompetent nice people also are a problem.
by bjornsing on 6/16/24, 3:26 PM
To be honest I’ve come to see these posts as part of the “war”. If you’re not very smart, what’s your best move? Change the rules. Now you can be the most noteworthy person in the room, by being the kindest.
With that said, of course you should be kind. But don’t be afraid to be smart too. The world needs smart.
by clarkdale on 6/16/24, 12:48 PM
"Being nice is the new punk"
I would say helping others is incredibly punk. Such as responding to chat messages requesting help in some particular coding problem. So many people will direct them to a support queue, but I love taking time to understand their issue and help them out.
by mehulashah on 6/16/24, 1:19 PM
I’m wondering if this is really about life and not just meetings.
Meetings are really about getting things done. The kindest act is to not have the meeting if it’s unnecessary. And if it is, outline what you want to get out of it at the start. During the meeting, yes, you should be kind.
by elric on 6/16/24, 12:53 PM
Learning not to take everything personally, and not being easily offended are two valuable life skills. I've come to value intent much more than when I was younger. "Did they ignore me because they're mean, or were they simply too distracted to say hello?"
I struggle with being "kind" when under pressure. I don't mean to be unkind, but it can seem that way. People who don't know me well sometimes get offended by that. People who know me a little better don't get offended, they know I'll be more approachable when the deed is done (whatever the deed may be). It's ok to be a hedgehog sometimes. Not being kind sometimes is ok. Just don't be mean, that's much more important.
by ziggy_star on 6/16/24, 12:31 PM
Never judge a man until you've walked two full moons in his moccasins.
bows
Edit: OK well you guys two full moons have definitely not gone by since I've made this comment I'm starting to think y'all ain't as kind as you make yourselves out to be..
by orangesite on 6/16/24, 1:05 PM
Listening is indeed the hardest thing to do if your organization's metrics places immense pressure on you to be (or at least appear to be) the smartest person in the room.
Luckily there are other organizations out there that encourage kindness rather than penalizing it.
Only catch is, you probably won't make it through the first interview if you don't start practicing being kind right where you are. Soft skills are hard and take sustained effort to internalize.
by Xenoamorphous on 6/16/24, 12:48 PM
As I usually say, be competent, not competitive. No one likes the uber competitive guy who always tries to stand above the rest at all cost.
Which, by the way, screams insecurity.
by ransom1538 on 6/16/24, 1:53 PM
The title was worded wrong, I think engineers (at least me), would make more sense out of: "The world needs more good people, the world does not need more smart people." Engineers often confuse "good people" with "smart people". But they are not related at all. And no, we don't need more smart people optimizing ads. We need more good people helping.
by NickC25 on 6/16/24, 5:10 PM
Disagree with the title.
What one should try to avoid being, is a dick. Help people improve. Point out their weaknesses and how they can improve, but get your ducks in a row beforehand - don't be a hypocrite. He who lives in a glass house and all that....
Have empathy, and understand your surroundings, as well as reading the room with context. Be direct with people, don't waste their time, but don't be rude or crass with them. Pleases and thank you's.
If someone is falling behind at work, talk to them and understand why - don't just fire them (perhaps something outside of work that is serious is weighing them down - if that is the case tread with caution, and don't be so quick to make a decision that could cost you or your organization socially or fiscally down the road). If you must cut ties with someone, make sure you do so in a direct, honest and respectful way. If YOU were to be fired, how would you like to be treated? There's your baseline.
Don't act like an HR drone trying to use flowery language around everyone. Be respectful of everyone as well as their time, and have a baseline level of professionalism that is applied to EVERYONE regardless if they are above or below you on the org chart. Every organization I've worked in, everyone from the janitor to the CEO got a "good morning" and a "yes sir/no sir" on a daily basis. Respect in life is earned, but there's a baseline of where it should be a given. Treat people with dignity.
by newsclues on 6/16/24, 1:16 PM
Rather than try to be the smartest in the room, I try to learn from the smartest person in the room, but when I find I’m the smartest i start looking for a room with smarter people to learn from.
Some people can teach others or be the smartest in the room, but I’ve not found those to be as rewarding. I like the challenge of getting to the top more than I do sitting at the peak.
by detay on 6/16/24, 1:26 PM
I come from a culture where being kind is understood like a weakness. Sadly, this is a double-edged sword on certain situations.
by langsoul-com on 6/16/24, 1:16 PM
The 4 points the author listed is not the same as being kind. Listening, Being respectful, Being empathetic, Being resolutive.
by yobbo on 6/16/24, 6:17 PM
The reason people sometimes need to be "unkind" is to prevent some cost from being incurred. (Another conceivable reason is personality disorders, but let's assume normal healthy people.)
For normal healthy people, kindness is the default state when it is free. When there are costs, it becomes a luxury only some people can afford.
by zug_zug on 6/16/24, 1:24 PM
Hot take - all these articles (telling employees how to be) are crap for one simple reason:
If the management chain wants X, they need to incentivize X. In my experience 9/10 times, then management chain claims they value some set of values abstractly - but what they really mean is "Make me more money, and don't upset the order of things. There is no skill you can have in any quality that will ever make me think you should have my job or better."
If the management chain values kindness, let them communicate that request, then prove it by promoting people on that trait rather than nepotism/beauty/years/profitability/whatever.
by anotherevan on 6/17/24, 12:01 AM
My two favourite quotes regarding kindness:
“Choose being kind over being right, and you’ll be right every time.” — Richard Carlson
“When I was young, I used to admire intelligent people; as I grow older, I admire kind people.” — Abraham Joshua Heschel
by globular-toast on 6/16/24, 3:58 PM
People who try to be the smartest person in the room never are. The only thing I try to do in meetings is be helpful. Whether that's kind or not is not for me to decide.
by jackschultz on 6/16/24, 12:53 PM
If you're looking for an intro to mindfulness and meditation, the practice of mettā [0] is a truly a great way to start, and frankly, end with as well.
Commonly translated as "loving-kindness", applicable to the post, but even more simply as "friendliness" to yourself and others. It's crazy the feelings that can come when you sit, say, and feel the effect of phrases like "may I/you be happy", "may I/you be at ease". This isn't a game where we try to get points for being nice for an afterlife, but somewhat of a compounding way of looking at life and interactions with others.
There are many quick start posts, but this is a good one [1] to follow along. Rob Burbea has many talks about mettā, and these [2] are a good intro series.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitr%C4%AB
[1] https://www.mettainstitute.org/mettameditation.html
[2] https://dharmaseed.org/retreats/1084/
by kennyloginz on 6/17/24, 9:43 AM
Forget your “values”, it is always best to be kind. It’s rarely evident the value you produce, because it may take generations. But it is real.
by contrarian1234 on 6/16/24, 12:40 PM
I think the advice given by the author is a bit simplistic and obvious, but not wrong. I just wouldn't sum it up as being "kind"
As someone who works in a "kind" culture (Taiwan) - there is an infuriating flip side
If everyone is constantly worried about being kind, it becomes very difficult for people to say "unkind" things.
- It's hard for people to give you important critical feedback
- People will not give their half baked thoughts (which are the start of good discussions), and only bring stuff up when it's already a problem
- People have a complete inability to tell you "Hey when you do that thing A and B, I really don't like that"
The end result is that people end up masking a bunch of stuff in an effort to be kind which results in
- People having huge blow ups when things boil over
- Insane amounts of office gossip and people saying shit behind each other's back (bc they can't say it to your face and resolve it)
by bootcat on 6/16/24, 12:29 PM
You want to be smart to gather attention, you need to be kind to sustain attention and transform it into meaningful relationships !
by ttoinou on 6/16/24, 12:41 PM
```
   just a few people are going to miss the smartest in the room, but everyone is going to miss someone kind
```
How is the goal of having people miss you related to achieving business goals ? On the contrary if the smartest is able to produce a lot, people are going to miss him
On that topic, I’d rather have people trying to not become offended for little things, seems easier than faking kindness for personal benefits
by eleveriven on 6/16/24, 7:58 PM
Prioritizing kindness and empathy over showcasing intelligence. Sometimes it is smarter to be kind
by wseqyrku on 6/16/24, 8:27 PM
That's not gonna work when people conflate team work with competition
by ketanmaheshwari on 6/16/24, 3:04 PM
I personally think being fair trumps being kind / nice / smart.
by DEADMINCE on 6/16/24, 1:45 PM
For most people, ego dominates and comes far ahead of empathy.
by throwaway22032 on 6/16/24, 12:46 PM
Nice guys finish last.
There's not being a dick, and then there's being a doormat. You don't want to be close to either of those extremes.
by delta_p_delta_x on 6/16/24, 12:38 PM
Polar opposite advice frequently posted here is How to Ask Questions the Smart Way: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
No single article on the internet has irritated me as much as this. Being a 'hacker' does not mean someone gets special privileges to be a scumbag.
by hnthrowaway0328 on 6/16/24, 12:49 PM
I'd say just do whatever you think is the best for yourself and take the consequene.
by xchip on 6/16/24, 12:46 PM
Thanks for schooling us.
by GenerocUsername on 6/16/24, 4:23 PM
Disagree with title.
by demondemidi on 6/16/24, 4:30 PM
This is another way of saying "behavioral skills matter". Doesn't matter how smart you are, if you're an complete asshole you will find a lot of paths closed off to you. I'm really glad this generation is rejecting the notion that you have to be toxic to succeed. It's such bullshit.
by omoikane on 6/16/24, 3:13 PM
> "Maestro Liendre: De tó sabe, pero de ná entiende." I don't really know (and don't want) to translate it
I think it translates to "knows everything, understands nothing" or "jack of all trades, master of none".
by gyrovagueGeist on 6/16/24, 7:30 PM
- "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant"
by getlawgdon on 6/16/24, 3:08 PM
More coastal exceptionalism throughout the comments. Wait until you find out how superior Chicago is.
by neilv on 6/16/24, 1:30 PM
I think one of the difficulties is that someone can, say, adopt this "The Kind Framework", and appear aligned on values and awarenesses with someone who appears the same way.
Then the second person is blindsided when the first person goes and does something utterly selfish, as soon as the opportunity presents itself.
And the first person is baffled that anyone wouldn't expect someone to do that, since they assume anyone would do the selfish thing. And they still think of themselves as a kind person. Where their definition of kind is presenting a certain vibe exterior.
I call the first person a "sunny sociopath", after characters we'd often see in TV shows set in California.
by xiaodai on 6/16/24, 12:41 PM
why try? just be
by philodeon on 6/16/24, 3:56 PM
To me, this article seems designed to train junior employees to be more exploitable by the tech sector’s psychopathic managerial class.
by mycologos on 6/16/24, 12:41 PM
No, please, I come to Hacker News to get away from platitudinous, short, vague LinkedIn advice.
by tommica on 6/16/24, 1:07 PM
I was very confused for a moment, as I misread the title as "Do not try to be the smartest tv in the room"
by user90131313 on 6/16/24, 1:01 PM
I was so kind at all YC meetings and in other places. That's how got one of the biggest funding and investor attention. That's how it works, right? Did you know that Steve Jobs was so kind so Apple fired him. Also Elon is kind and all founders just kind. etc. Great content
by jorgegalindo on 6/16/24, 10:27 AM
In my latest blog post, I highlight the value of kindness over intelligence in the workplace. I talk about how being kind—through listening, respecting others, showing empathy, and focusing on solutions—can significantly enhance team dynamics and productivity. While being smart is important, I believe that kindness leaves a lasting impact and creates a more positive and effective work environment.