from Hacker News

Framework's software and firmware have been a mess, but it's working on them

by sagischwarz on 4/15/24, 12:07 PM with 91 comments

• by nrp on 4/15/24, 5:44 PM

  We are taking both the article and the comments here and elsewhere to heart. Our entire focus is on building products that get better over time through repair, upgrade, and overall design for longevity, and software is a necessary part of that. We recognize that we have fallen short of where we need to be, and are making the needed investments to resolve this.

  Last week, we published the final release for the Windows version of 12th Gen along with more context around what has stalled the Linux updater: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/framework-laptop-bios-and-d...

  Early this week, we'll be releasing final Framework Laptop 13 and Framework Laptop 16 AMD BIOS and Driver updates that have been in Community Beta testing over the last 10 days.

  A few months ago, we released an 11th Gen BIOS update for Windows: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/framework-laptop-bios-relea...

  With each of these complete, we've resolved both infrastructure and process issues that make it faster for us to iterate on BIOS and driver updates on each platform. Obviously, our words here are not enough. We need to and commit to demonstrating this by actually improving both our iteration speed on software updates and our communication processes so that you both know the status and are aware when we have releases.

• by qchris on 4/15/24, 1:20 PM

  > Framework will need to step up its game, especially if it wants to sell more laptops to businesses—a lucrative slice of the PC industry that Framework is actively courting.

  This line really resonated with me. I own a 12th-gen Framework laptop personally, and have enjoyed using it enough that I wanted to have one at work as my existing machine is aging out. Like many businesses, my org requires some paperwork ("telecom approval") in order to buy computing hardware, which is basically a short questionnaire that I assume to check off some "we're not actively trying to backdoor you" boxes. I've had vendors get this turned around in <24 hours. Framework, however, has not been able to do this. Their reasoning is basically, per the article,

  > [..] interspersed with not-untrue but unsatisfying responses from Framework employees (some version of "we're a small company" is one of the most common)

  claiming their B2B lead is "swamped". Unfortunately, they've been that way since I started that approval request (with repeated follow-ups) 6 months ago, and can't even give me a timeline for when they might even be able to review it. I'm trying to get approval for an org with high-four-figures employees; not Google-size, but not exactly a small business either.

  The initial execution on their laptops has been good, and I'm hoping that it continues. But at least to me, it definitely feels like there's a lot of maturing to do for the company on the process for product support and customer experience.

• by gorjusborg on 4/15/24, 2:30 PM

  I have bought two Framework 13 laptops, and have been happy with them overall.

  I love their vision of a repairable laptop, and have replaced parts on them, without issue. That is a great achievement.

  I have had issues with drivers, and specifically had to reinstall windows to reflash firmware to get a new touch pad to work in linux. Bummer, but I'm also running on the fringe a little, so I accept that.

  Overall, the experience has been positive, but I can just imagine how much of a tidal wave of support they must be experiencing. That's not to give them a pass. I hope they improve, but they are trying to do an audacious thing.

• by pquki4 on 4/15/24, 3:35 PM

  I looked at a number of options when getting a new laptop earlier this year. Although I like the idea of modularized computers and support what Framework is doing, I cannot give them my money, because:

  1. They are actually more expensive than something like ThinkPad X13/T14/T14s with the same specs (if you know how to find and use their "coupons"). It is definitely not as modularized (although that will also change in the next generation), but it is hard to justify spending more when you consider build quality and support. 2. There are still reliability issues, like what is mentioned in the article, and things like HDMI not working in certain conditions [0]. I knew that I need better than this.

  I used to tinker with Android ROMs/root and different Linux distros a lot back as an undergrad student, but I very quickly realized that, even as a grad student, I need something that is reliable and works, and I need to focus on real productive work instead of figuring out how to fix things. Since then, I only use mainstream laptops/phones with a standard setup as my main devices, although I sometimes have spare/separate devices for trying things out.

  [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1biqwdm/laptop_l...

• by jjice on 4/15/24, 1:31 PM

  I'm excited for their improvements. It's got to be incredibly hard to start a company that does what they do. Not the repairability part, but anything with modern hardware, firmware, and software.

  When I think of the other big names, they've all been around for quite some times and they were already established companies. I'm not excusing Framework, but I am excited for their future. My Framework 13 AMD has been running great for the last 6ish months. I've had a big where the screen won't come back on after a charged sleep twice now, but it's been a minute since that happened.

• by moondev on 4/15/24, 3:00 PM

  Most underrated framework machine is the Chromebook edition. Firmware is solid and loaded up with 2 TB NVME and 64GB DDR. It's x86 with hyper threaded cores and nested virtualization support. Runs android apps, and any distro you want via crostini. Supports docker, KVM (windows and macOS) from crostini. USB passthrough to crostini is super easy via ChromeOS settings panel.

  Only thing I really miss is passing a PCI device to crostini like you can do with USB. In dev mode I have seen indications it may be possible but no luck yet. Passing the iGPU or a thunderbolt PCI device to crostini, then to a VM would be so awesome.

• by starkparker on 4/15/24, 1:39 PM

  I'm genuinely concerned that launching the 16 will kill them. They were already stretched too thin just by supporting both Intel and AMD on the 13, and the gaming-focused target market for the 16 won't have the same patience.

• by nfriedly on 4/15/24, 6:58 PM

  I've been pretty happy with my AMD Framework 13. There's been a couple of hiccups, but things have mostly worked well and I've gotten help, or at least explanations from the community forums for most issues I've hit. (Help getting the wifi working reliably in linux, an explanation for why the top of the touchpad isn't clickable, a workaround for charger incompatibility, etc.)

  It sounds like the wifi issue has now been fixed upstream, and apparently the BIOS beta they just released improves charger compatibility.

  So not perfect, but good and improving. I bought this thing to last a while, and I think they're on the right trajectory for that.

• by johngladtj on 4/15/24, 1:18 PM

  I've been pretty happy with my framework laptop so far, though it does run a bit hot particularly when trying to play games.

  Still for a coding/web browsing machine I've had a decent experience, though I do regret not waiting another 6 months so I could have gotten the 16 inch version.

• by BadHumans on 4/15/24, 1:17 PM

  I'm still bullish on Framework but the quality control issues I have seen from the Framework 16 are unacceptable for a device that cost as much as it does. They have also reused elements from the older Framework laptops that they should not have, namely the smaller keyboard and the smaller trackpad. I hope they pull it together because I want them to succeed.

• by ang_cire on 4/15/24, 2:32 PM

  I actually really love my Framework 16 (which I'm writing this on), but the integration with Ubuntu (which is their supported Linux distro) was far less performant than I expected. I ended up installing Win11Pro on it, and since then I've been cherry (apart from being on Windows).

  I really do hope they begin to offer more customization and expansion options soon; I'd love to support them some more, but there's not anything that I need from them, since I got a couple extra modules when I ordered it.

  My biggest gripe is actually the LED array modules, because they don't have any convenient software to utilize them if I don't want to write python in my freetime. They're soliciting feedback on what people want out of them, but I definitely get the impression they're just planning to have users create the apps. Stuff like battery percentage or scrolling marquee should have been there from the get-go.

• by binkHN on 4/15/24, 2:07 PM

  I seriously considered a Framework for a recent laptop purchase, but, ultimately, went with the venerable ThinkPad. That said, all is not rosy here either. BIOS updates to resolve issues still don't come out fast enough and there still are nagging firmware and driver issues that have not been resolved 6 months after the device was released.

• by nfriedly on 4/16/24, 8:30 PM

  Framework posted a response to this at https://frame.work/blog/enabling-software-longevity (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40054383)

  It feels like a good response to me, similar to nrp's comments in this thread: it acknowledges the issue and explains what they're doing to address it.

• by cjk2 on 4/15/24, 2:43 PM

  I actually have no problem with this because Dell/Lenovo/HP software and firmware is a mess. I suspect the issue is that the underlying platform is shit and a mess and this is being reflected in the software.

  At least Framework are trying, unlike Dell/Lenovo/HP.

• by rowanG077 on 4/15/24, 7:26 PM

  Why don't they open source it and allow people to contribute fixes?

• by xcdzvyn on 4/15/24, 1:34 PM

  I must admit I'm honestly not impressed with my Framework. I'm sure it's decent for a Windows laptop - the repairability alone is certainly enough to set it apart there - but coming from a MacBook, everything's just.. worse.

  Were MacBook upgrades not so expensive (all i want is 16GB!) and my love affair with NixOS, I'd probably have regretted buying one.

• by redder23 on 4/15/24, 1:56 PM

  This is horrible and very disappointing to read. But of course they cash in big time, selling themselves as the underdog and the good guys, all so caring about repairability for the super-duper premium price tag of course. But they can not pay people to keep up with software? Why is this kind of hardware even this complicated that the others need 14 and 13 bios updates? Seems like a shitty hardware choice in the first place for reliable laptops. Sound like they should have chosen more established and tested hardware, not some kind of new cutting edge shit or whatever this is that needs this much care and updates. Especially if they can not keep up with it.

• by ParetoOptimal on 4/15/24, 1:41 PM

  June is also when Wayland nvidia gaming and application should be fixed by an nvidia beta driver with explicit sync support.

  Year of the Linux desktop?!?!!!

• by mouse_ on 4/15/24, 12:46 PM

  For a product whose main draw is the ability to have whatever connectors you want, the lack of a plain SD card module (a standard feature on macbooks, so standard in fact that they TRIED to get rid of it and had to backpeddle; an extremely rare move for Apple) destroyed my confidence in this company. I don't trust them.