by madpen on 4/12/24, 12:35 PM with 123 comments
by dwater on 4/12/24, 1:17 PM
"Using the expiration of preexisting collective bargaining agreements as a source of exogenous variation in the timing of changes in pay, I show that the introduction of flexible pay raised salaries of high-quality teachers, increased teacher quality (due to the arrival of high-quality teachers from other districts and increased effort), and improved student achievement."
"The main dataset contains information on the universe of Wisconsin teachers, linked to student test scores to calculate teacher VA."
"Student Test Scores and Demographics.—Student-level data include math and reading test scores in the Wisconsin Knowledge and Concepts Examination (WKCE 2007–2014) and the Badger test (2015–2016), for all students in grades 3 to 8, as well as demographic characteristics such as gender, race and ethnicity, socioeconomic (SES) status, migration status, English-learner status, and disability."
What this study is saying is that paying teachers more for improved performance by their students on standardized tests results in higher standardized test scores of their students. That does not surprise me. In my experience, this system encouraged teaching to the test (focusing the majority of instruction on test prep rather than traditional instruction) and widespread cheating. Both of these efforts raise standardized test scores. The study assumes that standardized test scores are a direct measure of teacher quality and student achievement. In my experience that is not true.
by marviel on 4/12/24, 1:10 PM
> This paper has studied the effects of the introduction of flexible pay for pub- lic school teachers on the composition of the workforce, teachers’ effort, and student achievement. A switch away from seniority-based salary schedules toward pay-for-quality in a subset of Wisconsin school districts resulted in high-quality teachers moving to these FP districts and low-quality teachers either moving to dis-tricts which remained with the salary schedules or leaving the public school system altogether. As a result, the composition of the teaching workforce improved in FP districts. Effort exerted by all teachers also increased and, subsequently, test scores improved.
by setgree on 4/12/24, 1:11 PM
My main question is whether the gains are fundamentally zero-sum, at least in the short term. Some districts implement flexible pay and some don’t, and then the best teachers move to get paid more. And the places that get left behind…?
In the long-run, increased pay ought to lead to more high-quality teachers entering the profession. But in the short term, this scheme seems likely to redistribute talent in ways that reinforce existing patterns of inequality.
by RecycledEle on 4/12/24, 6:06 PM
The Texas Education Agency (TEA) awards school districts for things like students earning industry IT certifications. This can be more than $1k per certification.
Teachers know what will happen if they try to excel in these areas: they will be fired. Coworkers explained this to me, but I did not listen.
I explained to a school board member that I was going to try to get my 9th graders certified. He replied that if even one student failed to earn their certification that I would have failed and he would have to fire me. I tried to reason with the idiot, but he made Dilbert's point haired boss seem competent.
I managed to get about half of my students Microsoft certified.
I left that school district in part because my life was hell there. One secretary in particular was very offended because she had to figure out how to spend the school district's money on certification exam vouchers and had to add students to a field trip to compete in an electronics competition. We took 2nd in the state, and I left the school district. Now I'm an adjunct at a community college.
If you want to fix Texas Public Schools, elect competent school board members.
If you want teachers to perform well, reward them instead of punishing them. When a teacher brings state money into the district, give them at least half of that money.
by crzyman on 4/12/24, 1:58 PM
The problem with "heat pumps" is that they necessitate a "cold" side, from which they "pump the heat" to the "hot" side. Their goal isn't to increase the overall "heat" in the system, it's to move the "hot" all to one side.
A "resistive heater" can add "heat" to the system more evenly, but is less efficient and you won't see "temperatures" rise nearly as quickly.
And that both can occur at the same time.
by mberning on 4/12/24, 1:23 PM
by czbond on 4/12/24, 1:32 PM
How would you like to deal with corraling 23'ish hyper nut jobs all at different levels? That you have to be their parents, psychologist, DEI, identity fosterer, special education teachers etc.
Funding in many schools isn't there now for specialists to do these roles.... because teachers wanted to earn more after inflation, so cuts made - more responsibilites to teachers.
So the teachers are having to take on the role of many of society's "dump bucket" of stuff that parents should be taking care of.
by robertlagrant on 4/12/24, 1:11 PM
by kkfx on 4/12/24, 2:31 PM
Using metrics to understand at a large scale what happen, if a method work or not, where to improve etc might be useful and harmless. Using them as a way to prize or penalize have regularly very bad results.
The ancient quis custodiet ipsos custodes it's equally valid for metrics, who evaluate those who design the measure?
by calderwoodra on 4/12/24, 1:13 PM
by spaceprison on 4/12/24, 1:57 PM
Since teaching career progression in the US is mostly tenure based I've always wondered why there wasn't a more longitudinal approach to their assessment.
The product is the students ability to achieve over time. One batch of good test results doesn't measure anything other than the teachers ability to get good outcomes for the test.
by thiago_fm on 4/12/24, 1:24 PM
Even running a study like this inside the same school you would get wrong data and come to the wrong conclusions, just think about it for a second.
Worse is people wasting time in academia researching ideas with so many holes in it.
This is why measuring schools makes no sense, the creators of the study were likely top students at their time, yet they lack some basic common sense.
Grading is broken, first start by coming with a better alternative
by rappatic on 4/12/24, 1:34 PM
by andy99 on 4/12/24, 1:20 PM
by pipeline_peak on 4/12/24, 1:17 PM
by jmuguy on 4/12/24, 1:27 PM
Its a valid concern that there are some teachers that are not good, and would be weeded out by performance based metrics. However - everyone else at the school knows who the bad teachers are. They're obvious. They're the ones leaving their class unattended. Doing the bare minimum.
These people can't be weeded out right now because there's a shortage of teachers. The need to keep a warm adult body in that room outweighs the need to discipline and then fire teachers that aren't doing their jobs.
As a thought experiment would we also suggest performance based police salaries? Or do we acknowledge that being a cop potentially sucks and that one aspect of making sure we don't only have bad cops is making the job attractive enough that we're not just picking from the bottom of the barrel.
/edit
To be clear - I'm suggesting we encourage more people to become teachers by paying them more and secondarily making them deal with less bullshit.
by jader201 on 4/12/24, 1:15 PM
by alienicecream on 4/12/24, 1:37 PM
by synergy20 on 4/12/24, 1:29 PM
by whywhywhywhy on 4/12/24, 1:26 PM
You can argue the raw materials are something they can’t control but plenty of other industries have the same issue, real estate, hiring, and we still pay them on performance.
Think we’d see accepting poor behavior, teachers writing off or actively bullying students tank if this were implemented properly.
by mmh0000 on 4/12/24, 2:57 PM
The key findings of the research include:
Higher Salaries for High-Performing Teachers: Districts that adopted the flexible pay scheme offered higher salaries to high-performing teachers, which attracted quality teachers from districts that did not adopt the scheme.
Improved Teacher Quality: The introduction of performance-based pay resulted in improved overall teacher quality in districts that adopted the new pay scheme. This was due to both the attraction of high-quality teachers and increased effort from current teachers.
Enhanced Student Achievement: There was a noticeable improvement in student achievement in districts with flexible pay schemes. The increase in teacher quality and effort directly contributed to better academic outcomes for students.