from Hacker News

Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

by brandrick on 2/27/24, 9:25 PM with 680 comments

  • by Lammy on 2/27/24, 10:08 PM

    Speculating here but it feels like part of Nintendo's beef is the popularity of PC form factors that look like a Nintendo Switch. Most notably the Steam Deck but there are loads of them.

    In 2022 Nintendo starting taking down Youtube videos showing Steam Decks running Switch games: https://www.resetera.com/threads/nintendo-started-blocking-v...

    And last year went after Dolphin (GCN/Wii emulator) as soon as they announced plans to be listed on Steam: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36090755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36100732

  • by robbiet480 on 2/27/24, 9:33 PM

    I knew that Patreon would bite them some day. Any time money comes into a "offensive" open source project, whoever feels they are getting hurt can make a claim a lot easier. Somewhat surprised they haven't yet sued Ryujinx (the other Switch emulator project) for also having a Patreon.

  • by ryzvonusef on 2/28/24, 5:51 AM

    Nothing Nintendo can do can shut the emulation genie... because China.

    A lot of Chinese sff pc/handheld producers (GPD/Minisforum/Ayaneo/Beelink etc)[1] are now creating device with the explicit understanding that these devices will be used for emulation, and are creating devices as such.

    even if Yuzu is banned...Chinese will take over, and nothing any american/japanese game manufacturers can do to stop it.

    ----

    [1] AyaNeo literally created a DS clone called the Flip DS... doesn't get more explicit then that: https://www.ayaneo.com/product/AYANEO-FLIP-DS.html

  • by theultdev on 2/27/24, 9:35 PM

    This is a pretty big case to watch.

    Are there any cases of emulators being sued successfully?

    A user being able to provide keys and a rom from which they could own or be homebrew doesn't seem to violate copyright to me.

    edit: seems the consensus is once via legal fund attrition, but the case went to the emulator authors in the end.

  • by _imnothere on 2/28/24, 8:03 AM

    Things like this and companies like Nintendo must be stopped, it's both morally and legally correct to emulate when people actually owns the machine and cartridges.

  • by ApolloFortyNine on 2/28/24, 12:38 AM

    When the game isn't be sold any more, along with the console, emulation makes sense.

    But the switch emulation for at least 2 years now has been more than good enough to run games of a current gen system, and you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think any meaningful percentage own the game.

    The emulator also requires Nintendo data they're not actually allowed to ship (there's a number of resources to download it though), but they specifically coded to support it.

    Imo switch 2 is coming and it'll likely be almost the same system just beefier, so going after the emulators makes sense for them.

  • by fzeroracer on 2/27/24, 9:37 PM

    Looking over the legal document, realistically, their arguments are so damaging from a software perspective that they should lose. IANAL, but from skimming the legal document:

    The two major notions are that Yuzu violates Nintendo's copyright [1] by allowing people to play unauthorized copies [2]. In order to do so it allows for bypassing Nintendo's encryption (by taking in the keys, it does not embed the keys in the software) it falls under a violation of the DMCA [3]. Essentially, trying to argue that the keys are copyrighted. Additionally, they claim that every user that has either dumped Nintendo games they lawfully owned and play in Yuzu, or have pirated the roms and played in Yuzu have violated copyright and thus Yuzu should pay up [4].

    [1] "In effect, Yuzu turns general computing devices into tools for massive intellectual property infringement of Nintendo and others’ copyrighted work"

    [2] "In other words, without Yuzu’s decryption of Nintendo’s encryption, unauthorized copies of games could not be played on PCs or Android devices. "

    [3] "Recognizing the threats faced by copyright owners like Nintendo in the age of digital piracy, Congress enacted the Anti-Circumvention and Anti-Trafficking provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (“DMCA”), making it illegal to circumvent or traffic in devices that circumvent technological measures put into place by copyright owners to protect against unlawful access to and copying of copyrighted works."

    [4] "On information and belief, Yuzu users have (1) dumped Nintendo games they have lawfully purchased and copied the game ROMs into Yuzu; and (2) obtained Nintendo games online from pirate websites and copied those game ROMs into Yuzu. Each such reproduction constitutes a violation of 17 U.S.C. § 501(a) for which Plaintiff is entitled to damages under 17 U.S.C. § 504 and injunctive relief under § 502"

  • by sircastor on 2/27/24, 11:16 PM

    I feel like there ought to be a sliding scale of cost associated with filing a law suit. If you're a very large company suing a very small company, it should be very expensive to file. Expensive enough to make your lawyers encourage you to think really hard about whether or not this is actually a threat to your business.

    Of course, applying that to the real world would obviously fall apart quickly. It's not hard to think through loopholes.

    It just seems to easy to crush a small company/group who are just doing something you don't like.

  • by GrabbinD33ze69 on 2/27/24, 10:07 PM

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Nintendo caught using an open source emulator for the switch, without any sort of credit to the authors after suing? If so, I have no empathy for them.

  • by aussieguy1234 on 2/27/24, 11:44 PM

    This is unfortunate. The switch is probably coming to the end of its life soon. As soon as Nintendos next gen (announced or not) console is released, the switch will be a legacy system and emulation is important for archiving purposes.

    This does make it less likely that i'll be buying any Nintendo products in the future.

  • by deminature on 2/27/24, 11:22 PM

    I wish they'd offer a legal avenue to play Switch games at 4K/60 instead of 720p/20-30. Anyone looking for a higher fidelity experience than the 2017 Switch hardware is able to provide is forced to use software like Yuzu to enable it. Even Sony has started porting their crown jewel games to PC to enormous commercial success, allowing players with high-end hardware to legally enjoy a higher fidelity experience, but Nintendo is stuck in the past.

  • by gamepsys on 2/27/24, 9:50 PM

    This is truly awful for the gaming community at large. If this case makes a ruling then it will most likely have an impact on all emulation projects. If Nintendo decides to sue your open source project, how do you mount a legal defense?

  • by jamesear on 2/27/24, 10:32 PM

    The only comment of someone saying they had used Yuzu for piracy has been flagged, and is no longer visible.

    This might HN readers a skewed perspective on how much Yuzu is used for piracy.

    I have many acquaintances/friends in different circles, with the means to pay, who use Yuzu for piracy.

    There are dedicated forums of people who coordinate on how to do this.

    Emulation is great as a means to study or play backups, but its also fair that Nintendo has legitimate business interest in curtailing this.

    IANAL, and have no idea how their case against Yuzu developers will go.

  • by russfink on 2/27/24, 10:18 PM

    It feels like a claim against free speech. Yuzu makes an emulator and states it can play Switch games. That is a statement. If others illegally trade binaries, that’s not the emulator’s fault. By attacking them, it feels like the only thing “wrong” was making the emulator available. Caveat - IANAL.

  • by Springtime on 2/27/24, 9:39 PM

    > The legal document claims that over a million copies of last year's The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom were downloaded prior to the game's official retail release. As a result, the company is now seeking damages and is demanding that the Yuzu emulator is shut down.

    Quite the leap from existing as an emulator to inexplicably being held liable for some independent leak.

  • by CaliforniaKarl on 2/27/24, 9:48 PM

    I really recommend folks watch this, from a lawyer:

    https://youtu.be/wROQUZDCIMI

    “Why Are Emulators Legal? Dolphin vs. Nintendo, and the Fate of Dolphin Emulator”

  • by tristor on 2/28/24, 5:15 PM

    Ironically, I own more than one Switch and all the games I play using an emulator. After the Steam Deck came out, I just preferred using the emulator on the Steam Deck because it allowed me to backup and share save files, so I had the convenience of a handheld with the ability to play on my gaming PC at home and in both cases have performance unrestricted. When the Switch OLED came out I was hoping it would be a performance boost also, but unfortunately that wasn't the case so I didn't buy one.

    I /really/ really like the Switch hardware. I think the Switch is arguably one of the best consoles ever made, especially for it's ergonomics and UX. The detachable joycons, the subtle integration of motion control, and it's light weight with good battery life made it an exceptionally good gaming product. I truly love my Switch(es), but they are very long in the tooth in 2024, running off what is basically a 2017 smartphone hardware. If Nintendo releases a Switch 2 with full games backwards compatibility, I'd prefer to play on first-party hardware vs using an emulator, but from my perspective I just want the best gaming experience, I don't care about their greedy interpretation of the law. Software is software and hardware is hardware, it makes no sense to restrict emulation in any way as long as you legally own the games.

  • by skupig on 2/27/24, 10:13 PM

    >(A)to “circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure” means avoiding, bypassing, removing, deactivating, or otherwise impairing a technological measure;

    If this is what Nintendo alleges yuzu facilitates, does Nintendo have a case?

    Reimplementing the security measures seems like a reaffirmation of the security measures, not an impairment.

  • by ken47 on 2/28/24, 12:27 AM

    What did Yuzu expect? If they’re going to challenge a company of Nintendo’s stature in this manner, then they should be prepared for legal war.

    And what’s Nintendo supposed to do here? Most here would do the same thing if they were in Nintendo’s shoes. They have employees to pay.

    Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

  • by 1970-01-01 on 2/27/24, 11:54 PM

    Lawyers always kill the fun. Piracy and emulation is still legal in many other countries, however. Emulator projects should always be hosted in piracy-friendly nations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/b6rpzx/here_are_som...

  • by egypturnash on 2/27/24, 9:57 PM

    Huh, guess I better go make sure the copy on my Steam Deck is up to date. Not that I've actually bothered acquiring a single Switch ROM, there's so damn many neat little mid-sized games on the thing.

  • by bakugo on 2/27/24, 9:53 PM

    I hope Nintendo loses because it would be extremely harmful to emulation and software freedom as a whole if they didn't, but at the same time, I hope this knocks the whole "for-profit emulator" practice down a peg for a while. I think this is the same emulator that at one point tried asking people to pay a monthly subscription to play online.

  • by saintradon on 2/28/24, 1:12 AM

    Regardless of whatever your take on emulation is - can we all agree that it's actually awful there isn't some organized archive of old video games? The library of congress supposedly has 173 million items in there - you'd think they'd have an archive.

  • by Sirikon on 2/27/24, 10:58 PM

    Pirate everything Nintendo produces.

  • by pipes on 2/28/24, 7:51 AM

    Not sure how I feel about the developers making 30k a month in patreon donations for writing an emulator for a current gen console. Nintendo might have a point here.

    Edit: that said, I did pay 5 dollars (or something like that) for redream, which is a Dreamcast emulator. But in my mind at least, this doesn't deny the developers of the games I play on it the money they would get from a sale. Because it is a dead platform.

    I know for a fact that when I pirated Dreamcast games back in the day, I would have paid for at for some of them at least. I don't feel great about that. It was one of my favourite consoles and I probably aided in it's untimely demise.

  • by eemil on 2/28/24, 9:41 AM

    I wish people would hold Nintendo to the same standards as Sony and Microsoft. But because they make the best games, everyone looks past their anti-consumer BS and permanently-stuck-in-the-90s corporate executives.

  • by devwastaken on 2/27/24, 11:52 PM

    If you are ever going to make something where you may be sued, you must take precautions to protect yourself. Any website you use can be compelled to hand over your info. Never use personal details, always use trustable VPN's.

    It's unfortunate, but remember that corps don't play fair, and they will turn "grey area" against you by having more money than you. They can find the right jurisdiction to get what they want.

    That said, Nintendo is going to have to point to a specific DRM bypass. If they can't, yuzu should win.

  • by matt3210 on 2/27/24, 11:00 PM

    You can bump it off github with a lawsuit but you cant stop an open source project from being built if developers want to build it.

  • by jokoon on 2/28/24, 12:17 AM

    I recently pointed out that Nintendo is not selling new wii consoles, so people cannot play Mario Galaxy 1 or 2 unless they buy an used console.

    Apparently they released the game in some limited version they don't sell anymore.

    It makes zero sense, it's like they are asking people to pirate their games.

  • by atum47 on 2/27/24, 10:57 PM

    It's unbelievable how much I loath Nintendo these days. Hard to believe I use to love them growing up.

    I got a Nintendo switch last year from Walmart. The f*ing came used (apparently someone in the store played some Zelda in it, put it back in the box and sold to me as new). Walmart said they couldn't do anything when I emailed them about the issue. Anyways, the switch came with no games. Nothing. Zero. So, naively I subscribed to the Nintendo online service, which I believed would be like Xbox game pass. Not at all. The service only let you play online. The only thing i got out of it was some SNES emulation.

    Moves like that and the ones this news cover pushes fans away.

  • by bassiek on 2/28/24, 1:11 AM

    Are they talking about this stuff ?

    Right here ?

    > https://en.btdig.com/search?order=2&q=%22Complete+Play+Ninte...

    Better avoid it then.

  • by sergiotapia on 2/27/24, 11:48 PM

    Can someone run the actual public filing through AI to get the summary and highlights?

    https://www.scribd.com/document/709016504/Nintendo-of-Americ...

  • by tombert on 2/27/24, 10:38 PM

    Yuzu is open source isn’t it?

    Nintendo can’t be completely incompetent here; if they get Yuzu shut down someone will inevitably fork it, and they have to know this.

    Presumably this is a play to try and establish precedent. They know that this lawsuit means nothing in itself, even if they win, but it can then be used to go after Retroarch or Higan or Mupen64 or Dolphin. This is bad.

  • by lenova on 2/27/24, 9:38 PM

  • by 0dayz on 2/28/24, 11:37 AM

    Its really annoying how Nintendo keep on thinking that western law is equal to Japanese law.

    Afaik, in Japan you do have absurd copyright law to the point where Nintendo can sue anything and anyone doing emulator or hobby project.

  • by michaelmrose on 2/27/24, 10:04 PM

    If anything this lawsuit makes it difficult to morally justify purchasing Nintendo hardware and supporting them. Having really enjoyed the first Zelda game on an emulator I would otherwise have really considered it.

  • by MyFirstSass on 2/28/24, 5:54 AM

    This unfortunately makes me loose all respect for Nintendo.

    Attacking an open source passion project with no money while they themselves don't care about supporting their own hardware fully in any way.

  • by catwoe on 2/27/24, 11:19 PM

    I guess it's a matter of whether you own your hardware (and included software) or just own the hardware and a license to use the software that comes with it in a certain way.

  • by mattigames on 2/28/24, 12:16 AM

    Link to support the Yuzu developer team on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/yuzuteam

  • by giancarlostoro on 2/28/24, 4:10 AM

    This will just bring more attention to a perfectly legal emulator. Even if they somehow mess up what's already set in stone, people will fork Yuzu.

  • by pipeline_peak on 2/27/24, 11:36 PM

    > Nintendo is now seeking a trial by jury

    Nintendo is clearly relying on the fact that the average person would assume emulators are illegal.

    Also a Patreon account is a poor argument.

  • by shmerl on 2/28/24, 6:40 AM

    So they are trying to use the garbage DMCA 1201? That "law" should be burned with fire becasue it's unconstitutional.

  • by catwoe on 2/27/24, 11:12 PM

    Why do you need an LLC to run an emulator project?

  • by postexitus on 2/28/24, 9:47 AM

    Oh there is good emulation of Switch on powerful Switch-like devices? I will definitely give it a try. Thanks Nintendo!

  • by tanh on 2/28/24, 12:16 AM

    While I’ll defend the right to make emulators, I do think it should not be published for a console actively sold in stores.

  • by jovial_cavalier on 2/28/24, 12:00 AM

    Last I checked, you needed to actually own a switch and a downloadable version of the game to use yuzu... has this changed?

  • by dingi on 2/28/24, 5:49 AM

    Never heard of Yuzu up until now. Thanks Nintendo for bringing it to the attention. I'll give it a go.

  • by holoduke on 2/27/24, 11:05 PM

    I have to admit. I am using it a lot. And my 8 and 4 year old sons as well. We do have a switch with some games. But the pc with the Yuzu emulator can play many games in 4k 60hz. Only possible since the nvidia 40 series. The games load faster and its easier to install cheats. Its time for Nintendo to release a new switch. One that can only be emulated once the 6080ti is out.

  • by 8K832d7tNmiQ on 2/28/24, 7:40 AM

    Gonna bet it's actually because of the DRM implementation on Yuzu that got it into trouble.

  • by cuckatoo on 2/28/24, 12:00 AM

    I was not aware that Yuzu worked well enough to be worth suing over. Thanks for the tip.

  • by coryfklein on 2/28/24, 5:25 PM

    I love video games. I grew up with Super Mario Bros on the NES and since the 2000's I feel absolutely spoiled by the burgoening and diverse indie game industry. I can hardly believe that today I can mix and match genres, and the fact that the genre "deck building city builder roquelike" (looking at you Against the Storm) even exists is amazing.

    This whole industry exists because society has made guarantees that you can in fact license your game for sale and be rewarded for all your hard work. I'm glad that piracy has been far enough on the edges that people still find it worth their time to invest years into dreaming, crafting, and delivering wonderful new games every day.

    Where does this leave console emulators? I agree with everyone here that there is nothing inherently wrong with building them. But practically speaking, they do in fact significantly lower the barrier to "I'm going to play this game without paying the creators for it."

    If you, like me, love video games and want there to be a healthy and thriving market for them, then what is the right and correct set of rules that we can agree on as a society? I don't think banning emulators makes sense, but it bothers me how much the hacker community completely lacks any sense of nuance for how their "fun hacker project" can have a detrimental effect on the very thing they love.

    If the creators of these emulators are doing it out of a love and passion for video games, should they not also encourage users to pay for them? I know Nintendo isn't popular around here, and this particular action of theirs seems overreaching even to me, but if I have to pick a side I'm choosing the one that has some semblance of a future for video games.

  • by thih9 on 2/27/24, 11:01 PM

    Steam deck and other handheld PC platforms should help here.

    End result should be: emulator being legal as it is now, with ROMs being easy to purchase and download via official sources. This sounds like a dream; but given GOG’s success I guess it could actually happen.

  • by rnts08 on 2/28/24, 11:17 AM

    Nintendo does a nintendo? surprised_pikachu.png

  • by adamsmolinski on 2/28/24, 5:48 AM

    Time to send some money through that Patreon.

  • by Cloudef on 2/28/24, 1:22 AM

    Ah yes, the same company that sued individual to pay portition of his salary to the company rest of his life. The same company that sends spies to spy on jailbreakers/hackers, watching their daily life.

    Search for Gary Bowser and Nintendo ninjas (leaked documents) if you are unfamiliar

  • by mise_en_place on 2/28/24, 2:41 AM

    It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. Yuzu on its own is just a generic ARM emulator, right? Hope they don’t start going after QEMU next.

  • by hakube on 2/28/24, 9:16 AM

    Nintendon't with the usual stuff

  • by tamimio on 2/27/24, 9:35 PM

    Link is not working? Any archive link?

  • by Zuiii on 2/28/24, 5:09 AM

    Why isn't this covered by antislap? Yuzu should at least counter sue them. Why is the law so broken when it comes to IP?!

    Devs who don't want to deal with Nintendo's nonsensical delusions should start their emulation projects on tor. When the law doesn't protect people from those who have a long history of abusing it to punish legal operations, perhaps people should take basic precautions to protect themselves from both the nutjobs and the law.

    Maybe what law abiding developers need is a deepweb Github.

  • by zucker42 on 2/27/24, 11:11 PM

    Two paragraphs into the legal complaint[1], Nintendo says such BS as:

    > A video game emulator is a piece of software that allows users to unlawfully play pirated video games that were published only for a specific console on a general-purpose computing device

    [1] https://www.scribd.com/document/709016504/Nintendo-of-Americ...

  • by nicman23 on 2/28/24, 8:53 AM

    too bad it is open source, ain't it?

  • by Woshiwuja on 2/29/24, 8:49 AM

    Nintendo needs to stop with this bs

  • by codedokode on 2/27/24, 10:09 PM

    > As a result, Nintendo ... is demanding that the Yuzu emulator is shut down.

    When corporations like Uber violate multiple laws, do they get shut down? When Amazon treats its employees poorly, does it get shut down? When Google forbids manufacturers to pre-install competitor apps, does it get shut down? Well, it seems that as long as copyright is not infringed, everything is ok.

    Also it seems to me that Nintendo might themselves violate antitrust laws by using their monopoly power on market of Nintendo-compatible games, and not allowing enough competition there.

  • by leshokunin on 2/27/24, 10:09 PM

    I would love to see OSS communities like Internet Archive or founders who are pro open source support them.

    Emulators are legal. Defending your hobby project in court is infeasible without patrons.

    Nintendo has no leg to stand on legally speaking, and there's a precedent waiting to happen.

    As for the emulator itself, I don't see any argument that the Yuzu team used "illegal means" (internal SDKs, whatever their equivalent of a DLL is, etc).

    A thought for the Ryujinx emulator devs, who are also making an excellent Switch emulator (sometimes more performant than Yuzu). They must be having a really stressful day.

  • by EMIRELADERO on 2/27/24, 11:43 PM

    A ton of people seem to think the DMCA is the end of Yuzu, but I believe it's actually its salvation, particularily Section 1201(f):

    (1)Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.

    (2)Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.

    (3)The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.

    "Independently-created computer program" in this case being Yuzu, "other programs" being Switch games.

  • by lrvick on 2/27/24, 9:55 PM

    I for one have exclusively used yuzu to play backups of games I legally purchased on a computer that can render them with higher frame-rates and quality than official switch hardware.

    This is my legal right, and Yuzu provided open source code to make this task easier for me.

    Nintendo is looking for a scapegoat here for their wasted investment in DRM technology.

  • by ramijames on 2/27/24, 9:33 PM

    Can't say I'm shocked. Nintendo's lawyers are notoriously litigous.

  • by racl101 on 2/27/24, 10:29 PM

    Of course they are.