from Hacker News

Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)

by Nevin1901 on 1/15/24, 9:04 PM with 128 comments

• by BiteCode_dev on 1/15/24, 9:56 PM

  As a Frenchman, when I worked in the valley, people told me to tone it down, that I could come off as rude.

  On my side, I wanted to slap those people calling others they barely knew "friends", overselling their lunch as "amazing", assuring an outcome with certainty, virtue signaling or refusing to say when something was completely wrong. It's like they were always in a tiny marketing process.

  Eventually, I learned to smooth communication, and to appreciate their enthusiasm.

  But it did take time.

  Also I must confess I have an American filter permanently on, now. If something comes from the US, I just assume most of it is BS until proven otherwise.

• by Nevin1901 on 1/15/24, 9:06 PM

  As someone who recently moved from The Netherlands to USA, I found this article to be really great at explaining the reason why many Europeans find Americans to be fake. I myself had experienced all of the social experiences the author talked about, and found myself confused as to what a "friend" was in The USA. I also find it very interesting how the author described emotions as cultured - not just something which was the same to everyone.

  I'm curious to hear your thoughts and experiences with different cultures.

• by PaulDavisThe1st on 1/15/24, 10:04 PM

  A couple of questions/observations as someone born in the UK who emigrated to the US at 25.

  1. I wonder when this "difference between culture-driven emotions" fades away. I've been in the US for 35 years now, and I still sometimes sense that I'm viewing interactions the way a British person would (less often than I used to)

  2. I wonder how the "noise" of differences between individuals compares in "amplitude" to the ability of culture to shape emotion. Any given population of any significant size will likely contain fairly wide variations of introversion, sociability, communication comfort, positivity, etc. etc. To what extent does or can cultural factors create any sort of coherent pattern "on top" of that variation?

  3. Some US habits can be seen as having nothing to do with the relationships between individuals, and everything to do with creating certain social moods. The reason that US retail interactions are studded with "Have a nice day" is not, in general, because anyone actually cares that much about whether your day is nice or not, but because having people behaving in that way creates an easy going, affable mood in which people's anger, disappointment and sadness of the moment is not really appropriate to bring to the surface. It can seem grating and "fake" on early encounters with it, but after a while (maybe a long while), you can appreciate it as a communal, non-coercive effort to "make nice" because everyone benefits from that, on average and over time.

  4. US English really needs to re-acquaint (no pun intend) itself with the word "acquaintance" as an alternative to "friend". The almost universal use of "friend" to describe anyone you know (even from the most singular and minor of interactions) really robs verbal behavior about the social environment here of so much subtlety.

• by SoftTalker on 1/15/24, 9:50 PM

  American living in America. I've encountered all types of people. Some are taciturn, some are very direct, some dance around the subject for fear of offending, some are excessively friendly. We're a mix of cultures and I don't think you can say that all or even most Americans have the same social/emotional tendencies.

• by joecool1029 on 1/15/24, 9:41 PM

  I wonder if the dutch history is why most new yorkers seem to be very direct. There are definitely different regions of America that pull the fake thing more than others (one example I can think of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bless_your_heart )

• by NoZebra120vClip on 1/15/24, 9:57 PM

  I have a long history of trouble with intimacy and long-term relationships, and as a result, I live alone and rather isolated. I have a few friends on FB and others who I email on a regular basis, and I try to cultivate closeness with them as much as electronically possible.

  But many of my social interactions are based in commerce. So I'll go to a restaurant to eat, alone. I'll go grocery shopping, alone. And so the clerk/cashier/waitress greets me and serves me and of course they're nice, because their wages are on the line here. And gradually I just felt fake and futile, because all these pleasantries we exchanged had an undercurrent of a business transaction and not the bonds of trust, fraternity, an actual relationship.

  Yes, it does feel really hollow when I enter a store and the clerk greets me enthusiastically, because they don't know me, and any concern for one another's feelings, that's merely a business transaction. I tire of this fakery.

• by hiAndrewQuinn on 1/15/24, 9:37 PM

  As an American in Finland I'm sure plenty of Finnish people think my mannerisms come off as fake. But I just figure the best of them will take my natural bubbliness as a fun treat, something a bit different from the otherwise reserved nature of the culture here. There's very little to be sad about in my life, especially given that I get to live in such a lovely country, and I'm not shy about showing it. :)

• by BrandoElFollito on 1/15/24, 9:49 PM

  > Thank you for dinner” felt to me as an act of distancing

  Is this really? I am French so we are rather private (in the sense that friendship is something that takes time, and before that there are rather generic interactions). But if my best friend whom I adore and whatnot did a dinner for me I would thank him very much.

  I wild be surprised if "thank you" is not used between friends in the Netherlands

• by dotnet00 on 1/15/24, 9:46 PM

  I don't fully buy the points being made, I agree that emotions are cultured, but as someone from a different culture, I've felt that Americans are more "genuine".

  My own culture is all about distrusting others and being very selective about what you reveal about yourself and paying close attention to material balance in social interactions so someone else isn't getting more out of the relationship than you. A point that came up last time I was visiting my home country was that my habit of thanking the cashier after finishing my transaction was a glaring giveaway that I was an outsider, and that I should be careful about it to avoid being taken advantage of.

  In comparison, American culture has been very freeing, I can typically trust people to not be trying to stab me in the back, I don't have to worry as much about taking advantage of by friends, I can ask people to be honest about me and they will be, and so on.

  There are a lot of little pleasantries with strangers that took time to become fluent at, but people you actually know seem to be just as honest as what the author describes the Dutch as being, just with a lot of initial padding like "please don't take this the wrong way".

  The example given of being asked to dinner and responding bluntly with "I'm busy tomorrow" doesn't seem that rude to me, but to be fair, I am in a physics and engineering environment, neither groups of people being known for their social smoothness :)

• by bananamerica on 1/15/24, 9:57 PM

  I don't believe Americans are fake, but I do believe that Americans are trained since an early age to display at all times that they're not a threat, and that is kind of sad.

• by Yodel0914 on 1/15/24, 10:49 PM

  A while back we spent 5 weeks in the US, visiting a handful of states (California, Arizona, Nevada etc). The people we met were universally polite and often kind (except for one drunk English guy). A random person on a bus noticed we were tourists and spent ages giving us recommendations for local things to do; retail workers would notice our accent and ask about the bushfires (this was late 2019 when half of Australia was burning).

  However, pretty much the whole time it felt a bit like we were being boisterous in church. As polite as everyone was, it felt at least in part fake; like they were a bad actor over-playing a role; like they were tolerating us but wished we'd just shut up and leave. Conversations felt shallow - if I actually responded with anything of substance about the bushfires, for example, they seemed to lose interest immediately. There was a sense of guardedness that meant I could rarely tell when anyone actually thought. Australians are typically rather... open in that respect.

  As we were lining up to board our flight home, I heard groups of other Australians talking and instantly let of of a tension I hadn't realized I was carrying. Like I'd walked out of church and was allowed to act normally again.

• by 9dev on 1/15/24, 10:01 PM

  > When my son’s teacher told my mom she was being appreciated as a grandmother, she emphasized that my mom was special to her grandchildren— a domain over which she could claim to have some authority, being the teacher of my son. This is not fake at all: it is just a feeling that comes from a focus on those features or accomplishments that would give the other person reason to feel good about themselves. You are a wonderful grandmother [...]

  But here's what I don't understand. The teacher doesn't actually know whether her mother was a wonderful grandmother -- after all, she just got to know her! I get that the intent is to make another person feel good about themselves, but if you praise anything and everyone, how does this praise convey anything special?

  Edit: I guess my actual question is this: How do you tell plain courtesy from actual commendation? When do you know someone actually means it?

• by FaridIO on 1/15/24, 10:10 PM

  Dutchman living in NYC; this article is spot on. It gets slightly easier with time, but I've been here ~9 years and I still feel it.

• by throwaway307053 on 1/15/24, 10:43 PM

  As an American living in America, I've had a hard time fitting in to many social situations because it's difficult for me to "be fake", and it feels very awkward when people "act fake" with me. I appreciate some aspects of American social culture, but the forced "niceness" and fake compliments/questions irk me.

  My ideal style is somewhere between Dutch directness and American friendliness - mostly direct, but with a generally more "positive" affect than the "neutral"-seeming Dutch approach, and more open to having friendly interactions with strangers without being "fake".

• by renewiltord on 1/15/24, 10:24 PM

  Haha, this is a cluster of things.

  - Americans do reduce social distance with phatic conversation. "how are you?" "Good, how about yourself?"

  - Americans do have expected formal acknowledgements. There are a few cultures where formality is a sign of adding social distance, but in America it's definitely an acknowledgement. In another culture the emphasis will be on how much you liked the thing, but in the US, it is important to say "thank you"

  - There is a lot of fake positivity in the US for sure. For instance, you'll see this online with "I don't know who needs to hear this but YOU ARE LOVED". That's a strange sentiment to express. How could you know?

  But ultimately it's mostly just words. The sentiments expressed are the same and the language is just different. It might just be a thing among Anglophones since the British are somehow worse about the word / intention mismatch though without the enthusiasm.

  This does remind me of that Reddit thread where an Eastern European asks "Guys, what is a chamicha? My American colleagues always compliment me on it and I thank them and we go on." where it was discovered that it was "Nice to meet you".

• by deafpolygon on 1/15/24, 10:35 PM

  “There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.”

• by rafaelero on 1/15/24, 10:08 PM

  The few Dutch folks I know are indeed kind of rude. One time I (Brazilian) went out to get some drinks with some Dutch friends and, omg, they spent the whole night trashing other people. I am accostumed to do it in a much more delicate way, while they didn't hold it back for a second.

• by Krasnol on 1/15/24, 10:05 PM

  It was always fun seeing new people at the US company I've been working in Germany. The way the Germans fell for all the BS sweet talk in the beginning and just couldn't believe that it actually is BS when you warned them until they actually felt it. It lead to some weird conversations, especially when they tried to clear up a situation which has been created through US BS corporate talk. You had the German speaking the plain facts vs. the American who on one had had to keep their cool, keep the BS running AND somehow deliver the actual message because in the end it was important.

  Somehow the Germans learned faster, though.

• by lmm on 1/15/24, 11:03 PM

  I moved from the UK to Japan four years ago. The biggest culture shock hasn't been interacting with Japanese people, it's been interacting with Americans.

• by 082349872349872 on 1/16/24, 12:31 AM

  So am I alone in being offended that my android mobile addresses me per du (tutoyer/jij zeggen)?

  We have only recently made each other's acquaintance; we are not friends (we haven't even shared a meal, let alone a glass); and it can't even presume to practise the same sports I do. What gives?

• by twiss on 1/15/24, 10:10 PM

  > when my friend Ann Kring pointedly commented, “Thank you for sharing,” after I had explained in great detail some convoluted story about my emotions

  I cannot of course claim to know the intention of this person, but I have heard this phrase said ostensibly genuinely (to me it has the association of group therapy, though that might be due to popular media).

  However, to me as a Dutch person, it comes across as devoid of meaning, a phrase that can be said if one didn't bother to listen or care to come up with any thought or more meaningful response. So, it doesn't surprise me that the author read it as sarcastic (although she might've been right, again I can't know).

  The social expectation in the Netherlands to always come up with a response and share your opinion or thoughts, rather than just listening silently and nod (or say “Thank you for sharing,” which to me amounts to almost the same thing) can be criticized as well, of course. It can be a bit exhausting, at times. But, it also contributes to the feeling of having a genuine connection and conversation.

• by fredsmith219 on 1/15/24, 10:11 PM

  So which is it? Do you want fake civility or sincere rudeness?

• by gustavus on 1/15/24, 9:35 PM

  I'm between a 1/8 and a 1/4 dutch and I emphasize with what the speaker is saying, sounds like the Dutch may be my people.

• by forinti on 1/15/24, 10:18 PM

  I don't think you know rudeness until you've had to deal with Portuguese bureaucracy.

  It's so blunt it actually makes me laugh.

• by ska on 1/15/24, 10:18 PM

  I've suspected Postel's law applies to human communication also, mutatis mutandis.

• by lifestyleguru on 1/15/24, 9:54 PM

  Dutch are so direct and straightforward that one must draw a line when dealing with them.

• by jackbravo on 1/15/24, 10:24 PM

  > This is a classic case of Ask Culture meets Guess Culture.

  From the classic https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-bet... referenced elsewhere like in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37176703

• by JumpinJack_Cash on 1/15/24, 10:19 PM

  Alcohol will smoothen our cultural differences! /s

• by 6R1M0R4CL3 on 1/16/24, 6:46 PM

  i hate everyone. every single nationality bores me to death. most humans are a waste of perfectly good atoms. this whole planet is a cosmic turd.

  i don't even like myself ! i'm the worst of all humans on this planet.

• by StreetChief on 1/15/24, 10:15 PM

  If you want evidence of the success of liars in America, just look at Trump.