by koryk on 12/29/23, 4:11 PM with 194 comments
by frognumber on 12/29/23, 5:04 PM
1. Recruiting is the #1 job of any startup CEO, and the #1 determiner of corporate success.
2. Up market, down market, side market, it doesn't matter: You will get better employees if you treat candidates with respect and you will be more competitive.
3. It's a lot of work for the 95% of clowns out there you interview, and there's a push towards automated process, but it will hurt your business.
4. There's a lot more to recruiting than just treating candidates with respect. It involves how you present yourself as an employer (participating in conferences / meetups / etc.), how you find candidates, checking references, reviewing github repos, etc. It's a crazy amount of work.
5. This is hard, but if you can do this, you will have a huge edge.
The flip side is that as an employee, doing a good job interviewing / recruiting, especially at a big company, is one of the lowest value-add tasks you can bring on, from a purely selfish / incentive structures perspective. This friction, I think, is a major reason why recruiting is handled so badly. There is absolutely no upside to doing a good job, and it takes a lot of time to do so.
by CM30 on 12/29/23, 5:03 PM
And heck, even that isn't something you can rely on. I've had a fair few interviews get about 80% of the way through the recruitment process, then just ghost me without a trace. The main reason I have my current job is because the other company I was interviewing with just kinda faded away at the end of the application process.
If being ghosted is the new norm for you, you must be insanely lucky.
by solatic on 12/29/23, 5:09 PM
1. I personally owe a response to anyone who reaches out to me, in a timely manner, even if that answer is no, because to intentionally ignore a request is unethical.
2. I will strive to have built up many and different areas in my life, such that my sense of confidence is not impacted by the actions or inactions of people who are, in essence, strangers.
Move on.
by lapcat on 12/29/23, 5:37 PM
Months later, I saw that the company had hired someone for the position, and the person looked to be very qualified, impressive credentials, so I had no complaints about being passed over. All they had to say was that they decided to go with another candidate, yet they didn't bother to treat me with a modicum of respect.
Fast forward to a year later, it turns out that their new employee left the company, and they had to advertise for the same position again. Guess who did NOT apply this time. Karma.
by kleiba on 12/29/23, 5:16 PM
These days, sending an effing canned email to all applicants that didn't get hired costs a company next to nothing, and still ghosting happens.
It's indecent.
by kthejoker2 on 12/29/23, 5:23 PM
An automated no is such a no-brainer versus the reputational risk of being seen as a bad or callous employer.
And people have looooong memories / impressions created in this space. I honestly have no idea if General Electric is a good or bad employer, but the Jack Welch era still lingers in my mind.
by Niksko on 12/29/23, 5:31 PM
The commonality here is an inability to just be honest and say "doesn't seem like a good fit". Disappointing, and ironically, an indication that it really wouldn't be a good fit. I don't want to work with people who are unable to deliver uncomfortable news respectfully, or even, at all.
by sjducb on 12/29/23, 7:36 PM
The bad candidates get an immediate rejection.
The best candidates get offers quickly.
Candidates that are kind of good enough, but not amazing are the ones who get ghosted. The employer doesn’t want to say yes in case they find someone better. They also don’t want to say no because you are “good enough” and if the next 3 candidates suck then you’ll get the job. Then they forget to tell you when they hire #3.
The other ghosting is when the whole project gets cancelled mid interview. Often people involved aren’t sure if the project will be cancelled so they don’t tell the candidates early. Then when the cancellation is in full swing everyone has forgotten about the candidates.
by boring_twenties on 12/29/23, 4:49 PM
by zaptheimpaler on 12/29/23, 6:01 PM
The whole idea that we can apply the norms of personal relationships to a business transaction like this with 100s of candidates, no pre-existing relationship beyond 1-2 calls at mostand at best a generic rejection is basically displaced disappointment turned to resentment and anger. To which I say, you can either rant about it online and hope they change, or you can learn to regulate your own emotions.
by skeeter2020 on 12/29/23, 5:38 PM
I don't understand why many people are hesitant to name and shame the individuals and companies. It doesn't matter if it was intentional or accidental the outcome is the same, and I have consistently been very vocal with my being ghosted experiences. Surprise, surprise: they're consistent on a company-basis and highly corelated to other shitty experiences, both before and during employment.
by tayo42 on 12/29/23, 5:38 PM
These companies acting like everything they do is so important and urgent that they cant be bothered to give real feedback or tell me no. I suspect part of the lack of real feedback is that most people have no clue how to interview, even these large companies.
Companies should run their own employees through the hiring process or something. This would definitely show how bad almost all tech recruiters are along with their interview process in general.
I ended my search with a couple companies I don't want to work for now. Meaningless I guess, I'm sure they still have an endless stream of candidates and these large companies past a certain point will never actually die. They make worse decisions then being rude to applicants daily and have no real repercussion.
by cco on 12/29/23, 5:27 PM
And in that paradigm, why is ghosting so common? As a recruiter, a lot of your value is your professional network that you can pull from to place candidates. Why would you ever ghost people that, while not a good fit for this role, could be a good fit for a different role in the future?
Even as someone not in recruiting, I've made several connections with folks in the interviewing process (both as interviewer and interviewee) that have led to either new business deals or job placement later on.
Just never really made sense to me, interviewing is "free" networking. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
by vinay_ys on 12/29/23, 5:47 PM
In companies that had to do aggressive cost cutting, the recruiters were the first to be impacted. These roles have had high churn and sufficient training and experience quality monitoring may have suffered during this period. That could be the reason why the certain steps in the process involving recruiters (like communicating back to the rejected candidates) may have suffered w.r.t quality of interactions.
by davedx on 12/29/23, 6:15 PM
Don’t sit at home and feel sad and stroke your beard and neglect your side projects. Communicate, sell yourself, don’t be afraid to be a bit pushy!
by nonrandomstring on 12/29/23, 7:08 PM
If we give toddlers a TV or tablet to play with instead of attentive parenting they grow up with damaged attachment patterns. We stop them playing outside and interacting with other children. They go through metal detectors to attend hostile schools in a locked-down environment and communicate only through text messages. They are watched night and day by CCTV cameras. They're made to feel ashamed of simply existing because they're using up air and "killing the planet".
Do this for 20 or 30 years and we have a generation of timid, avoidant people with no interpersonal skills who as Julia Roberts' character in Sam Esmail's new movie "Leave the World Behind" puts it just "hate other people".
And then we use dating apps that reduce other humans to a dismissibe swipe. Those are our peers today. We treat each other like machines and mutual threats, because that's all we've ever experienced.
Is it any wonder that people in companies are too terrified to engage in a risky human-human interaction?
by kstrauser on 12/29/23, 4:43 PM
Yes, it's a hirer's market today, but that doesn't mean you can take your sweet time eventually getting around to interested applicants.
by hx8 on 12/29/23, 5:02 PM
by k310 on 12/29/23, 5:16 PM
Otherwise, many days sent down a black hole, followed by beers, to recover from the day's ordeal.
My wild-ass hyperbolic guess is that once they make a choice, staying silent is their way of grabbing a beer or two and forgetting their own ordeal, and having no regrets. "We hired a genius. All the others were run of the mill"
They're human, after all, but maybe humans won't be involved any more. Machines decide who will serve them.
by zero-sharp on 12/29/23, 5:45 PM
What the hell was that?
by wutangisforever on 12/29/23, 5:01 PM
It totally sucks when you go through the process and don't hear anything back but I also take it as a sign of feedback that I didn't kill on the interview.
I have ghosted a ton on interviews, never purposely but things get lost in the shuffle if you aren't super passionate about the company
It isn't a great habit/practice on either side, but by any means this isn't new
by teunispeters on 12/29/23, 10:44 PM
sigh 2 really good interviews, and then that. Work in my field, with tech I'd had decades on, and that. Worse experience of the last year of unemployment, and worst interview ever. I had a rough time with google interviews because I don't have a PHD (or degree of any kind) but nothing on that level, ever, before.
by JohnFen on 12/29/23, 5:26 PM
I've been in the industry for a very long time, and being ghosted has always been my standard experience when I didn't get a position I interviewed for.
by firtoz on 12/29/23, 5:08 PM
by senderista on 12/29/23, 6:41 PM
I don't consider anyone obligated to respond to a resume or application, but stopping communication in the middle of the interview process is utterly disrespectful and does not speak well of your company's values and culture.
by nedt on 12/30/23, 4:13 PM
The only exception was Automattic. They are very proud of everything and how clear their communication is, which it was for most of the time. I got invited to slack, got links with a lot of information. Then I had the interview, which from my point of view wasn't too bad.
After the interview I got told that they won't move forward. I can apply again after a year after I improved my skills. No word about what they thought didn't match the position. Slack channel closed, no response to my email asking what they were missing.
by billy_bitchtits on 12/29/23, 7:38 PM
by pcai on 12/29/23, 6:21 PM
by chrismcb on 12/30/23, 7:12 AM
by ugh123 on 12/29/23, 5:58 PM
Also, don't let a recruiter contact candidates on your behalf. I've seen this go sideways several times where unprofessionalism can be conducted IN YOUR NAME by the recruiter.
by satokema on 12/29/23, 10:31 PM
Recruiters this day are using one of a dozen or so recruiting platforms, all of which either have or ought to have functionality that tracks communications.
"Slipping through the cracks" isn't the issue. The issue is a lack of professionalism and diligence, which aren't things I want to see from someone that is going to filter out future employees.
by momocowcow on 12/29/23, 6:12 PM
by cryptodan on 12/29/23, 6:00 PM
by Brian_K_White on 12/29/23, 5:57 PM
by zitterbewegung on 12/29/23, 5:27 PM
by ponderings on 12/29/23, 7:47 PM
I've never experienced it and I don't know if they still do it but I hear in Belgium they do a lot of things over dinner. If nothing useful comes out of it you split the bill.
by dr_kiszonka on 12/29/23, 5:21 PM
by hartator on 12/29/23, 7:17 PM
by tennisflyi on 12/30/23, 12:36 AM
by tekla on 12/29/23, 4:43 PM
by thr0way120 on 12/29/23, 4:51 PM
On the other hand, here is the reality:
In a "hiring company friendly" environment, where they cut all their expensive recruiters / or all recruiters / or simply don't care / or treat recruiters as disposable this is what you get.
We are seeing a rising trend, which may reverse in a "Good Market" but part of me wonders if it ever will.
White Collar workers are becoming / have become more and more "disposable."
As disposable as recruiters.
White Collar workers are not used to being disposable, we think we are unique and special butterfly hires. And much of silicon valley used to be structured around the messaging: "Your talent is so useful and valuable that we can't live without you."
That pretense was never really true but they sort of put on an act to keep things friendly.
Lately, that pretense is completely gone. And dropping.
At some point employers, in my opinion, are going to find hires speaking out publicly.
And naming names directly.
Why? No consequences and the employers have nothing, as a class, to offer.
I got to this point in my own professional career. I was treated so badly at one company, I saw no point in not directly naming and shaming them. I didn't even care if "their friends" didn't want to hire me. I didnt want to work with anyone who would be friends with people that evil.
Here is the deal silicon valley wants:
"We treat you like shit and you are expected to take it as a normal part of "professionalism," or we will black ball you and you will be deemed unhireable because you are unwilling to take being treated like shit gracefully, and we (employers) need employees who we can shit on and dispose of. If you complain after this treatment, you are a liability since you think you are worth literally anything as a human being ... when we require disposable parts."
Even THAT contract, which is a VERY BAD AND ONE SIDED DEAL is fraying.
I expect that you are going to see more and more people speaking publicly and directly naming these companies.
Once THAT happens then you KNOW ITS ON.
I suspect venture capital portfolios are going to need to directly tell CEOs not to do this because they are "angering the sheep."
Shitting on applicants, if it continues to escalate, will become a net liability.
Venture Capital companies and Venture Capital firms want to cut corners, access cheap talent and avoid treating employees like they are human beings. They will push this as far as possible until it becomes a net liability.
I think we are going to see people getting so fed up they begin naming names, and THEN it will change.
by Beefin on 12/29/23, 4:44 PM