from Hacker News

People who can't give up paper

by luigi23 on 9/25/23, 7:51 AM with 161 comments

by gspencley on 9/25/23, 6:59 PM
I've worked in tech as a software engineer developing web applications for 25 years and I'm one of these people.
For note taking, I prefer pen and paper. For diagramming and brainstorming, I prefer a physical whiteboard. For non-work related scheduling, I prefer marking things on the physical calendar hanging on my wall... or sometimes I'll reach for a post-it note.
For bills, I prefer that my company mail me a paper bill. Especially if accessing the e-bill requires me to have an account with a web app and enable MFA and change my password every 90 days and always have Okta give me problems when I want to check my bill and thus need to jump through these hoops those whopping 12 times per year that I need this information.
Maybe it's because I see how the sausage is made. Maybe it's because I use some sort of eletronic device all day for work. But the last thing I want to do when I need to jot something down quickly is reach for a phone or a laptop. Heck, most of the time I don't even remember (or care) where I left my phone.
by ilamont on 9/25/23, 8:15 PM
MIT is starting up a design center to be located in the old Metropolitan Warehouse. One of the directors on the engineering faculty has done a lot of research on how designers work, especially early stage design. When the center was profiled in Tech Review last year, she noted that sketching (including on paper) still has a role to play:
Among other things, Yang has found that the very existence of those visual representations matters greatly: designers who do even basic, preliminary sketching consistently generate more design ideas. As she and a coauthor wrote in a 2007 paper, there is “an important interplay between a designer’s ability to sketch and their ability to visualize in their heads or through prototypes.” She has even found that if designers aren’t highly skilled at drawing, that doesn’t affect the quality of their final design outcomes; it just matters that they draw at all.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/19/1063906/design-c...
Whiteboarding also falls into this realm ... not paper, but it enables the act of sketching without a digital intermediary.
by tivert on 9/25/23, 7:10 PM
People have been trained to fetishize "new" technology and dump on "old" technology. Frankly put: new is not always better. A technology is just a technology, and "new" technologies almost always introduce regressions along with whatever benefits the they bring.
For instance: paper documents are generally more robust/reliable (as a practical matter), easily attached to physical items, and easier to annotate than any kind of digital document. Digital input methods are usually pretty awful, especially when you don't have the luxury of fumbling around for a few seconds (or more) with each input.
IMHO, any reasonable-aware tech professional should be able to understand that. Especially given how frequently computer technology objectively sucks.
by karaterobot on 9/25/23, 6:59 PM
> Paper, it seems, still rules the waves.
You'd be crazy to get rid of paper charts on a boat, for the same reason any hiker is instructed to carry a paper map, and the smart ones actually do it. Yeah, the primary system will be GPS, but that system requires a lot of things to be functioning which may not always be functioning. You need a backup, and paper is perfect for that.
by bane on 9/26/23, 2:28 AM
I have a friend who's really into wargames, and I don't mean Catan or Risk. When he moved into his current house he dedicated about 1500 sq ft of his basement (he has a large house) to this hobby where he and his other wargamers will spend months playing a game on a huge map with thousands of pieces - a turn might take several days.
While there are digital versions of this, nothing really matches the broad awareness of the field like just having the 2 meter by 3 meter map stretched out on the play space with all the pieces mid-game. Monitors feel like looking at the world through a straw in this context and the tactile ability to pick up pieces and try out scenarios can't be replicated with a mouse or even touchscreen.
Any technological solution would have to be able to display such a large piece of paper without scrolling, at retina display levels of quality. The closest technology I've seen that sort of "got it" was the early Microsoft cocktail table where you could put phones and controls and such on the screen directly. From those early concept ideas we ended up with the Surface Studio and dial I guess, but it's not a 2x3m retina display with thousands of game pieces, sometimes stacked.
by _moof on 9/25/23, 6:10 PM
For me personally paper is indispensable as a design tool for sketching out complex systems. I "think" more clearly on paper than I do with any digital tool I've used.
In an aviation context I mostly use an iPad these days (learned to fly long before iPads were a thing) but I carry some backup paper charts. I've had chargers fail mid-trip and the electronic flight bag apps are real power hogs. And that's not to mention the ever-present threat of GPS failure, which is very real.
by dogman144 on 9/25/23, 7:45 PM
Really dislike the “give up” terminology and related digital nudging in group/out group.
Just like I can’t give up:
- paperless billing bc I’d like ironclad proof I’ve paid my mortgage off and have experienced plenty of database failures
- driving without an insurance black box plugged into my car for a few % off my insurance
- cash because it saves the small business a few % points and I’ve (/s) never seen a POS crash and burn before
- paper maps bc you’re completely insane to do outdoors stuff without a paper map and analog compass. When you have the emergency that needs it, you’ll understand.
The best success IT has had is convincing the world that the digital metaphor is as good, No… better! A total replacement! Stop killing the environment paper-man! … than the analog thing.
I have no idea how you can work in and around technology and have this mindset. I get sketched flying on software-defined airplanes these days even. If the scheduling software falls over under load.. I’m sure that implies every other airline software is A+!
by VyseofArcadia on 9/26/23, 1:13 PM
> When will they scrunch up and toss away the last page?
When you pry it from my cold, dead hands.
Paper is a tool and a good one. It is simple, flexible, and most of all reliable.
You'd be laughed out of the room for suggesting that Wi-Fi connected e-hammers [0] are the way of the future, and when will the last old fogeys finally get with the times and throw away their old dumb hammer?
[0] I mean is it really even hammering without an oled screen that shows you how much force you're swinging with? And don't forget about the proprietary app that graphs your hammer swings for you. The light glaze of gamification (try for the biggest force!) will distract you from the personal data it's hoovering up to sell. Yes it definitely needs your precise location for Home Depot Hammer Hard Coupon Rewards (TM).
by dzonga on 9/25/23, 3:42 PM
I support paper notebooks compared to the e-forms.
I can bet a notes written today in a paper notebook - would be accessible 200+ years from now. compared to notes written in some notebook app.
whether inaccessibility is due to data damage, lost passwords etc. whereas with a notebook as long as it's not damaged by fire. it should be good. also invest in waterproof paper notebooks i.e stone-paper.
by nottheengineer on 9/25/23, 8:11 PM
Paper has two objective advantages over digital: It's reliable and it doesn't scale. That makes it the only option for elections as any compromise of a digital system would instantly decide the outcome. With paper, a bag of ballots might be lost or a few fake ones introduced, but none of these attacks scale very well so if we can prevent most of them, that's good enough.
I won't touch on preferring paper for visualizing thoughts because that's just preference, but seeing people prefer paper invoices over digital ones is just sad to see. On a conceptual level digital should always be preferrable, but we somehow managed to screw the inplementation up so bad that it's worse than no implementation.
Why do we need to overcomplicate everything?
by djha-skin on 9/25/23, 11:12 PM
There is more than simply preferential reasons to keep paper around. Some of them were touched on by the article:
* Paper does not run out of battery. On a ship where you need to be able to navigate whether or not the computer fails, this is a feature. My brother-in-law tells a story of when he was an air traffic controller in the military. Every so often they told them they had to turn off their computers and navigate the pilots in the air using paper to make sure they knew how to do it in case the computers failed and the power turned off.
* Paper cannot be hacked. In the article, Russian intelligence and MI5 were mentioned, as well as paper prescriptions. Of all highly secure mediums, paper is the most convenient.
* Paper is just handy. I use it right now to print out knitting patterns and write notes on them. I don't have to find some app to annotate the pattern I can just write directly on the paper. For what it is, paper is the default because it is so fully featured.
by netbioserror on 9/25/23, 3:54 PM
When it comes to tabletop gaming, I strongly prefer handwritten force lists and character sheets. Printed is okay, so long as they can be marked and modified on the fly with a pencil.
Requiring someone to fiddle with a poorly-designed app to record momentary bookkeeping is downright obnoxious and will not stand for it.
by eternityforest on 9/25/23, 7:52 PM
I like the idea of paper. It's got some pretty cool uses. Sometimes I think I probably should use it more. Most of my favorite works of art, buildings I've enjoyed being in, an even a lot of tech had their beginnings on a page.
But it's never something I just casually reach for, the thought of using physical media just doesn't really ever occur to me unless I'm specifically going out of my way. Digital is so much easier, no fighting your hands to make the letters readable, no worrying about losing anything, no need to physically sort things, no need to have dedicated space and time for it thanks to the portability and durability of the screen.
The UI changes, apps go obsolete, but keeping up is just a matter of stuff you can learn on a random blog, not stuff that requires the long, hard process of figuring out how to translate thoughts into spatial patterns, which nobody can even describe really.
It seems like using paper at least occasionally is probably a good idea. It's definitely gotten easier now that we have cheap space pens and A5 format binders that are a little more convenient than full pages.
by Decabytes on 9/25/23, 8:06 PM
Too be fair I don't think the anti-paper crowd are talking about me. The amount of paper I consume is minuscule compared to large businesses. I use paper a lot more than the average person. I make paper from recycled junk mail, and I hand write all of my notes. I retain things better when I write them down on paper. I also look at screens for 12 hours a day so staring at a piece of paper is a reprieve.
My only concern with moving entirely to digital is that it is not strictly better. Digital should be the best way to consume media but it often isn't. I don't own the digital media like I do with physical media. Buying brand new digital media is also waaay more expensive then getting used books on Ebay. This is all on top of the fact that we can barely keep services around for more than 10 years without them going away and being stuck with proprietary formats that are not accessible anymore.
I am concerned for the day where everything is all digital, and then something catastrophic happens and we lose a significant chunk of our information. But maybe I'm just giving myself FUD
by m1n1 on 9/25/23, 7:23 PM
A professor once gave me a demo of a printer that could erase its own work and print a new image on the same regular printer paper.
In between the two prints he let me mark the page however I wanted so I could be sure it was the same physical page coming back out.
He admitted there was no market for such a thing but it was cool to see anyways. This was in the mid 1990s
by j45 on 9/26/23, 12:10 AM
This article seems a little out of touch.
Paper doesn’t need to go away or be given up. Some uses of it would be better digital.
Digital can’t do everything nor would it be able to handle everything in every way.
I might use paper less, but writing is still invaluable.
by PumpkinSpice on 9/25/23, 7:09 PM
It's fairly clear that paper is being driven out of most white collar settings. It's still invaluable in many blue collar jobs. Phones don't work all that well when you're wearing work gloves, ports get clogged with debris, screens crack when you're crawling through narrow openings or pushing heavy stuff.
I have pencils and post-its in my electronics lab and I use them when working on digital circuits.
by travanx on 9/26/23, 3:50 PM
We do Civil Engineering and I have stacks of notebooks of calculations and decided I wanted to try using an ipad and stylus. Using Goodnotes, I can organize by job and create a new notebook for each plan check by date. Really enjoying not using a notebook every year as the paperwork was just getting out of hand, plus much more organized. I still use an RPN calculator, but slowly switching to spreadsheets. In this case digital works a lot better for me.
For archiving, some cities still have pen drafted mylar that sits in vaults. If you want to revise plans, go to City, check out the mylar with your life, use a razor blade to edit, pen with permanent ink and send back into the vault. New plans are plotted, but still to mylar.
With kids I am curious if they will learn how to handwrite. Will schools even teach how to read handwriting? Some interesting stuff as more goes digital and type printed.
Pen, Pencil, paper still has very great uses.
by zzo38computer on 9/25/23, 8:32 PM
I use computer and also write on paper a lot (I usually use a pencil rather than a pen, although some people prefer to use a pen). Writing on paper it can be done anywhere (and I commonly do in many places), and regardless of power outage, etc, and is also easier to give to someone else, than a computer (and do not have to worry about the incompatibility of computers, etc). I could also store them anywhere.
Also for calendar, you can write it on a paper if you have a calendar on the wall; and, if you want to write notes on a paper next to something that it is relevant to (e.g. program numbers on a radio), then you can do that.
Paper can also be reused (especially if you write on both sides) and recycled, and should be done more; even you might have spare paper that you can write notes, etc.
They also mention package materials. I do think that reusable packaging materials would be better. (Reusable stuff is better in general.)
by thsksbd on 9/25/23, 11:58 PM
Paper is real, so it is uninhibited by the limitations imposed by the imagination of the programer.
For note taking, with a pen I cam easily transcribe math formulas. I cant do that with a txt editor.
Ok, so I switch to org-mode and become a tex mode guru. There's still no easy way to make a geometric drawing.
So now I have a tablet. The stylus feels weird, the tablet heavy. The resolution much lower than paper, the GUI, the battery life abysmal compared to paper, the latency anodyne.
But sure, it does everything paper can do.
... that is until I crease the paper to make a geometric figure freed from the limitations of compass and straight edge constructions, a cube [1], a crane to flirt with my neighbor, a bottle opener [2], a makeshift knife [3] or to use as kindling.
[1] I've actually done this to help me visualize crystal structure's interstitials.
[2] Neat trick a frenchman taught me.
[3] really sucks at this, but I did slice an apple with a sheet of printer paper once
by ChatGTP on 9/26/23, 10:11 AM
Does anyone use a paper day planner ?
I gave mine up and tried to go digital, but I just haven't found anything I like. Google Cal has been ok, but I hate the way I had to maintain a personal and private version of my planner. I was worried if I got laid off I'd lose access to my stuff. This is basically a concern with any planning software for me. The app turns to shit or the company goes bust and that's it. I have to invent some new way of managing my time.
Even with my iPad Pro + Pencil, I'm not satisfied yet. I still find just writing a comma cumbersome on the iPad pro.
I'm going to buy a paper day planner again because I've never been so unorganized since I quit the paper planner. I feel kind of guilty because I'm not taking advantage of all the amazing modern cloud, AI crazy amazing tech to plan my life...
by langsoul-com on 9/26/23, 1:09 PM
I wonder why things have gotten so very black and white. There's digital, but God forbid if paper still is around. It's like we cannot stomach multiple ways of doing things, it has to be the "right" way.
Perhaps because it's so much easier to have an opinion and have that broadcasted.
by analog31 on 9/25/23, 11:24 PM
I suffer from not being able to read my own handwriting. So I prefer electronic notebooks (Jupyter) over paper for note taking. With three exceptions:
1. Drawing is laborious on a computer, and it rarely needs to be precise. It gives me eyestrain headaches and wrist fatigue. I still draw things like simple wiring schematics and flow diagrams by hand, take a pic with my phone, paste into Jupyter.
2. Sheet music. My kids have the latest tech (Apple 12" tablet, Apple pencil, page turning pedal) but I haven't upgraded yet. Also, the "charts" for one of my bands have not been digitized. Someday, but not yet. My notebook computer in tablet mode might be an option.
3 Meeting notes, just because I don't want to have a device in front of me when I'm having face-to-face discussions. The time is too precious.
by jimmaswell on 9/25/23, 7:20 PM
I've been writing some assembly, learning ED, and some other things on my Kaypro 1. I write notes on paper from the reference material on my desktop then go over to the Kaypro to apply it. Seems to work really well for learning and brings back memories of college classes.
by tapanjk on 9/26/23, 3:17 PM
Going through the comments, it feels like this topic is for people in tech what "physicians prefer to die at home" is for physicians. Knowing the inner workings of a system perhaps makes us avoid it?
by dotnet00 on 9/25/23, 11:21 PM
Where does "digital paper" rank in this?
Over the years I've gradually transitioned all my computing devices to be ones that support pressure sensitive stylus input. Most of my note taking thus ends up being handwritten, but still offering the benefits of digitization.
For me it's the perfect compromise since I always have a device I can access all my years of notes on (although I don't tend to need to access them). With paper notes, I used to just throw them out every few months because they'd pile up and it was clear I wouldn't miss them.
by sasaf5 on 9/26/23, 12:42 AM
The writing tool affects the choice of words and, by extension, the thought itself.
With a pencil you can rest the tip on the paper and you can erase its traces, but it has lateral drag and requires some downward force. The fountain pen requires no force, but you can't rest it on paper or it makes a huge blotch. You can't even leave it uncaped for very long, so it kinda forces you to be writing. The computer allows searching, copying and pasting, but every minor alteration in font or typeface requires cooperation from the software.
by Cyphase on 9/26/23, 12:20 AM
We should be sure to distinguish "paper vs. digital" (the question of storage technology, I suppose?) and "tablet(paper)/pen(pen) vs. touchscreen/finger vs. keyboard/mouse" (the kind of interface).
Typewriters are paper tech. Drawing tablets are digital. Large physical keyboards can be used with paper (typewriters) or digital (computers).
How different from a piece of paper and a pen is a digital tablet device with a blank canvas that you draw on with a stylus? In what ways?
Just some thoughts.
by agumonkey on 9/25/23, 7:11 PM
for everybody still on physical medium (be it paper, board, whatever), did you try to leverage digital tools thinking it would allow wider expressiveness, faster iteration, more precision and yet came back to paper ?
if so do you think it's due to cultural habit (being raised on pen and paper) or maybe a neurological need (paper requires more psycho/physical stimulation, you have to draw geometries, letters, organise.. that cost might be actually beneficial for your brain way of working)
by stronglikedan on 9/25/23, 7:13 PM
Another paper user checking in. I even have two different types of pads. One with thin paper for taking notes in meetings and such, since they will be deciphered to better paper later, and the thin paper will be recycled. One for more robust paper to which said notes will be deciphered and arranged, which is also used for real work. Plus I find it very hard to read from screens, even e-ink, so I tend to print things out if it's going to be a long read.
by mongol on 9/25/23, 6:59 PM
My poor handwriting is something I am disappointed in myself with. I knew how to write quite well, but that skill went to shreds in university when I tried to write too much, too fast. My hand started to repulse the pen. It is as if it always wants to let go of it and only with mental force can be made to hold on and scribble some ugly notes in protest. If I slow down I can write prettier, but I don't have patience to write slowly.
by mmphosis on 9/25/23, 6:19 PM
As much as using a phone with nav software and a dedicated plotter is easier to use—when everything breaks, and it will, I rely on paper charts when sailing.
by galleywest200 on 9/26/23, 12:40 PM
I have had sweaty hands my entire life. Pen and paper can be frustrating when your paper gets soaked and you cannot write on it any longer, the ink smears from your hands, etc. I don't want to wear a glove every time I want to write something.
For designing something I will take the time to physically draw it, but for any notes I need to be able to access regularly I will use a digital version.
by TheCapeGreek on 9/25/23, 7:15 PM
Sometimes I want to get more into paper, so I have an excuse to buy pretty notebooks. I do that about once a year and never end up using it right now.
Secondarily, hearing about our risks of EMPs from solar flares (or even in war scenarios), or in case of electrical grid collapse (a not-impossible scenario in some countries), paper is the only way I'll have survival knowledge available to me.
by roryisok on 9/26/23, 10:09 PM
> real paper made from trees is still considered crucial to countless businesses and government systems globally, despite the environmental impact of producing it. For decades, computers, smartphones and tablets have provided an alternative.
Is the impact of printing a paper navigational chart really higher than replacing that chart with an electronic device?
by V__ on 9/25/23, 7:20 PM
One of the great festures of using paper is, that it exists physically. I can see my stack of to-dos or bills or notes and this also helps remembeing where what what is. I don't have this experience using digital. My brain just remembers computer as the general location. I loose all spacial intuition. On the other side, this is great for anything I don't want to remember.
by goatsneez on 9/25/23, 7:59 AM
... the entire Germany in the most comprehensive and pervading (bureaucratic process integration kind of way) that is conceivable for a human being in 21st century. Germany.
https://www.dw.com/en/germans-use-more-paper-than-any-other-...
by xxxxx12345 on 9/27/23, 2:55 PM
Advantages of paper: 1. To increase size, use bigger sheet 2. To see two pages side by side, just put them side by side 3. To zoom in, bring closer, with no side effects 4. Mix and match all kinds of paper to make a book, no compatibility issues 5. Use pen/pencil for both text and diagrams
by gorgoiler on 9/25/23, 8:21 PM
Bound lab books with printed numbers on the pages are, I am led to believe, at the forefront of any technical defence of a patent or discovery. You just can’t fake ‘em.
This is why I record all my ideas in a lab journal — a cargo cult it may be but we’ll see who’s laughing when I finally invent homomorphic encryption / perpetual motion / alchemy!
by no_one_ever on 9/25/23, 6:52 PM
I did all of my note-taking on paper in school. I felt like I had to to keep up with complex visualizations and concepts. The habit has carried with me.
I still keep those notebooks for reflection on what I studied. They're very valuable to me, even though I get teased for it. To me, it is like looking at a photograph of your younger brain.
by forgotmypw17 on 9/26/23, 7:18 PM
For me, paper helps a lot with proofreading. I can proofread on the screen all day, but the best edits happen once I print it out and start using a pen. I generally go through several iterations of this before a paper or story is done.
by Avshalom on 9/25/23, 11:11 PM
Paper is enormous and extremely high resolution. Even a shitty printer has a higher dpi than almost any screen and you can do get an almost arbitrarily large print at that dpi instead of constantly losing density.
that's why we all keep using it for maps.
by demondemidi on 9/26/23, 12:48 AM
Huh? I go through a half-dozen engineering pads a year. Even twentysomething new-hires at my site use them. No GUI can keep up, yet. And this comes from someone who loves to draw with Procreate on my iPad.
by bvan on 9/26/23, 12:00 AM
Today, I had to create a couple of handwritten reference index cards. Went to the trouble of finding a ruler (remember those things?) to cleanly underline my headings. It was a wonderful feeling.
by zubairq on 9/25/23, 5:13 PM
I’m a developer and I still rely on paper to do some of my best work
by qingcharles on 9/25/23, 7:45 PM
Most courts in the country have laws mandating electronic submissions for all documents.
They all have to have an exception in the statute for prisoners as they are stuck using paper for everything.
by davchana on 9/26/23, 12:36 AM
Finally, my hoard of 200+ new journals (bought from Walmart, Ross, Amazon, AliExpress, Temu, 1 at a time over the period of 3 years) will come to use :)
by fragmede on 9/25/23, 11:51 PM
Not to sound like an ad, but I really like my Remarkable 2. It's basically a digital piece of paper.
by backtoyoujim on 9/25/23, 10:49 PM
Honestly, I didn't know that I was being asked to do so.