by niklasbuschmann on 9/6/23, 2:32 PM with 165 comments
by neilk on 9/6/23, 4:18 PM
But there are good cultural reasons why nerds avoid physical activity. North American cultural tropes, especially from high school on up, make out physical activity to be a kind of war. It is supposed to require extreme discipline and a punitive degree of focus. It's supposed to separate winners from losers. Those who are lesser (too weak, too fat, too short, too... whatever) are just embarrassing and should not try to do physical things in public view, unless they are trying to atone for their weaknesses with self-flagellation.
Lately I decided I would do physical activity but only when it was fun. I had no goals at all other than fun. I had to do something every other day and then stop when it wasn't fun. Sometimes this meant very short bursts of activity, or going to the gym for ten minutes and then leaving. I also explicitly was not trying to lose weight at all. I was trying to hack my psychology and associate physical activity with pleasure.
I think it's working. I'm much stronger and my endurance is much higher. I set myself goals just for fun at the gym or on my bike and then complete them.
And, full disclosure, I haven't lost any weight at all (in accordance with my goals!) but my body composition appears to be changing somewhat.
by godelski on 9/6/23, 3:18 PM
I think mental illnesses are very personal. It is still good to do studies like these, but they are also too aggregated. We put autism on a spectrum, I don't understand why we don't do for other things like depression. The most I see is anxiety/depression, like this. There's far more nuance involved and it isn't surprising that in these experiments that there are high variances. I'm not saying the studies aren't useful, but that these have been done for decades and it's time to add complexity to the studies. Nuance is necessary, but few people are taught to perform multi-variate analysis. It is always rather surprising given how many statistical "paradoxes" are due to aggregation errors.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc
[1] HTTP link, you will get warnings http://www.robertsapolskyrocks.com/depression.html
by jnovek on 9/6/23, 3:17 PM
Something that isn't discussed whenever this topic comes up, though, is how unbelievably hard it is to get started when you aren't active. I had to force myself to go to the gym, take walks etc for six months before I felt like I actually enjoyed those things.
For those of us who default to couch-potato it's a massive barrier that is often ignored (at least, from my experience, by medical professionals).
by munificent on 9/6/23, 4:12 PM
For many people, the two are deeply intertwined and often share a root cause: The need to feel like a capable agent in the world. Anxiety is your brain saying, "You need to do something, but you're going to screw it up so obsess about how to avoid that!" Depression is your brain saying, "You need to do something, but it won't help anyway so just give up." I'm over-simplifying, of course, but the gist is that we're wired to want to do and we feel bad when we aren't doing enough or what we're doing doesn't matter.
The modern world is antithetical to that. We are surrounded by media that provides short term gratification to consume but involves absolutely no action or agency on our part. After an hour of TikTok scrolling, our body and subconscious is screaming that we should be doing something. Punching a time card at a bullshit job burns all of our energy but provides no meaning in return.
Physical activity addresses that. It's both good for us at an actual kinesthetic level, but it is also the strongest, simplest signal that we can send our brains that, "Look, I am an active functional agent in the world."
I like to imagine Martians setting up a human zoo. If you were building a zoo for any kind of animal, you'd certainly make sure the animals had plenty of room to move and explore. You'd give them things to do, and make and move. If it's an animal that digs, you'd give them dirt to dig. If it builds nests, you'd give them twigs. You sure as hell wouldn't stick them in a tiny box with a screen and a button that just changes what's on the screen. That would be torture.
Martians building a human zoo would give us room to walk and run and explore, materials to craft with, and other humans to connect to emotionally and physically.
Instead, many of us have put ourselves in that dumb empty box with just a screen or two, and then we're surprised when we don't feel good.
by 303uru on 9/6/23, 3:19 PM
One other thing I wonder about, I get a lot of sunlight. I'm in Denver and can get outside almost year round. Vitamin D is always strong, as confirmed with labs.
by SoftTalker on 9/6/23, 3:52 PM
But I've also noticed that simple stuff: I did the dishes, I folded a load of laundry, I fixed a leaky faucet, whatever. Anything that has an achievement or makes an objective improvement makes me feel better. I can see the result of what I've done.
Note that I don't get this from video games, social media, etc. Maybe some people do, but those things just feel more like escapes from reality. That is the difference for me. Sitting here reading HN occupies some time, but doesn't make me feel any better (in fact often I feel worse because I'll start thinking about what else I could have done with that time that would have been more productive).
by thenerdhead on 9/6/23, 2:51 PM
> Our findings underscore the important role of physical activity in the management of mild-to-moderate symptoms of depression, anxiety and psychological distress.
You may also find https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4056176/ (History of exercise as medicine) interesting.
by tppiotrowski on 9/6/23, 3:25 PM
Exercise is one way to break the thought cycle. Just holding your breath is another. When you're suffocating, your brain tends to shut down unnecessary thinking. I also think this is why people enjoy rock climbing. It's the potential for injury that shuts down rumination for a lot of people I know who fail to find the same focus through meditation.
by darrenf on 9/6/23, 4:37 PM
When I sought counselling in 2013 the only regular appointment I could get was on a Saturday morning, 11am. So I'd get up and do Parkrun[0], get home, shower, and head out to see the counsellor. I'd cheerfully regale how utterly, paralysingly miserable and borderline suicidal I'd been all week. All the current stuff I was failing to deal with, and all the past stuff I just couldn't stop ruminating on. The withdrawal, the isolation, the intrusive thoughts, the insomnia.
After a couple of weeks they asked: why aren't you ever depressed when you turn up here? You're making jokes, you have energy, you're able to describe all these symptoms yet aren't actually displaying a single one. What's going on?
I said, well, on a Saturday morning I do Parkrun and ... oh. Oh! OH!!!
And thus the penny dropped. There's an absolute correlation over the medium/long term, for me, between how much exercise I do and how happy I am (or rather, how little I experience depression). These days, 11 years on, I'm out at sunrise or earlier 4+ days a week. It doesn't have to be running, but I'm yet to find anything preferable.
by chiefalchemist on 9/6/23, 3:12 PM
Anecdotally, I run (daily, 2 to 5 miles). No ear buds, etc. Just me and the road. The sweat is good, but being able to clear my head is for me the key benefit. Some people, including myself, have aha ideas in the shower. I tend to have them when I'm on a run.
Physical activity might not be The Answer for All. That said, I cannot imagine the advantage of a lack of physical activity; the benefit from violating our history.
https://eastermichael.com/book/
https://scholar.harvard.edu/exercised/home
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/603894/burn-by-herm...
by powerbroker on 9/6/23, 4:35 PM
Ok,Ok, Ok. I'll admit it, I wasn't happy when my bicycle seat fell off, and I had to ride without the seat.
There. Now maybe I've cured at least one reader's depression, after reading about how awesome cycling is. Don't forget to tip your waiters.
by wonderwonder on 9/6/23, 4:14 PM
I got on TRT and started working out again. The boost in self confidence, and ability to just be calm was immense. I am now in close to the best shape of my life and definitely stronger than I have ever been. I have been working on my diet as well.
On top of that I started smoking marijuana after work. I consume cannabis probably 3 - 4 times a week. It has worked miracles for my ability to just be in the moment. I can just sit and talk to my kids or play sports with them. I'm not focused on constantly learning new things or doom scrolling. I have noticed a huge improvement in my entire families well being as I am more present. My wife has noticed the same. We just sit and talk for hours, something we had not done since before the kids. My kids do not know I smoke and I likely wont tell them until after high school as at the end of the day it is a drug. I drink maybe 1 drink a week if that.
These 2 things worked wonders for me and my depressed state of being and my inability to connect with the now. It allows me to appreciate what I have instead of always focusing on what I want to achieve. I am also excelling at work.
Not advocating for others to try, just wanted to say what worked for me.
by nonethewiser on 9/6/23, 3:56 PM
by Gualdrapo on 9/6/23, 4:46 PM
Riding a bicycle kept me alive in that time. Even if it was an absolute crap bicycle. Riding a bicycle also kept me alive in the lockdown days.
by ilrwbwrkhv on 9/6/23, 3:35 PM
by xnx on 9/6/23, 3:32 PM
by agumonkey on 9/6/23, 2:59 PM
by hkt on 9/6/23, 3:35 PM
by nradov on 9/6/23, 2:48 PM
by sebringj on 9/6/23, 4:56 PM
I would have to guess working out like that puts you in flight or fight mode. Which I think is part of our evolution when in fight or flight mode to have a heightened sense of awareness of the environment around you which due to our limited locus of attention, shifts attention or focus from inward negativity to the "immediacy of being". This also seems to coincide with my normally perceived fast tempo of music that seems to slow down when in a hard workout.
by crtified on 9/7/23, 1:13 AM
If a person is thoroughly depressed in an office all day, does putting them on a treadmill (but having all else remain the same) change their life for the better? Sure, I suppose, but some might argue it'd be a fairly incremental improvement, and if the myriad concerns driving their depression are valid, then the treadmill won't address them.
Take that same amount of physical activity, and translate it to the context of a social activity with other people, and I suspect the readings would drastically differ again (from the desk+treadmill scenario).
How much of the mental benefit is coming from the social aspect vs the physical aspect? how much from the context surrounding the activity?
I'm sure I sound overly cynical, but I do agree with the findings. I just think that the finding "Doing Things sucks less than Doing Nothing & Being Sad" is a bit of a self-evident truth.
by rajeshp1986 on 9/6/23, 3:20 PM
by AuryGlenz on 9/6/23, 5:01 PM
I got one years ago. It takes a while to get used to it. At first, I could only use it while doing menial tasks. After a year or so I could use it all of the time.
You would think it would tire you out, but at least for me it does the opposite. I get mentally tired if I’m not using it. I can also eat like I’m a teenager again and not gain weight. My leg muscles are pretty nice now, especially my calves. I’ve started to put some 3d printed risers under the front to incline it to work on my butt muscles more and make it something of a physical challenge again.
Most of all it’s just time efficient. I get exercise without needing to dedicate any free time to it.
Unfortunately my treadmill broke last week and it won’t be until next week that I get a new one. It’s really bumming me out and making it hard ti get through my work days.
by oarfish on 9/6/23, 5:07 PM
by Horffupolde on 9/6/23, 8:14 PM
by torossian on 9/6/23, 5:17 PM
by thefz on 9/6/23, 8:22 PM
Besides the "but I am a nerd and sport is for jocks" stance is just an excuse.
by lucidguppy on 9/6/23, 4:43 PM
Now that e-bikes will flatten many hilly towns - we can all get outside a bit more.
Towns need to orient their lots to be centered around 1/2 mile x 1/2 mile mixed use zoning nodes where very little parking exists. Single family zoning between the village nodes.
That alone will do half the work of eliminating obesity. Just get people walking 1/4 mile two times a day.
I wish the rich people around 1900 had more financial interest in livable cities than the huge automobile dystopia we all live in now.
by wrftaylor on 9/6/23, 3:59 PM
by Loic on 9/6/23, 2:48 PM
I would have written "for reducing/mitigating" depression, ...