from Hacker News

Alcohol without the hangover – scientists are finding ways

by meany on 7/29/23, 1:59 PM with 285 comments

• by monkey_monkey on 7/29/23, 2:46 PM

  https://archive.is/jUUsw

• by 01100011 on 7/30/23, 1:49 AM

  There are many other alcohols, 2M2B(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Amyl_alcohol) for example, which are "alcohol without the hangover" in a sense. I seem to remember a scientist looking into ways to deliver these alcohols(absorbed in cellulose IIRC). You'll note that these chemicals, like alcohol, can also lead to overdoses and since they are much more potent it is even more difficult to ensure one does not overconsume. I suspect that is why they have never been sold commercially for recreational consumption.

  Of course, you will likely always get some after effects from any mind altering substance as you brain returns to normal, but alcohols which do not metabolize to acetaldehyde are going to result in much less suffering the following day or two.

  I was somewhat fascinated by other alcohols for quite a while. A microbrewery I used to frequent had some abnormally potent brews despite being around 6%. By potent, I mean that my friends who would normally split a 36 pack of Coors lite between the two of them would be heavily buzzed after a pint or two. A little research led me to discover that fermented beverages are a complex cocktail of chemicals, many of which are psychoactive. Some of those chemicals can actually interfere with a simple alcohol measurement based on specific gravity, so you could be under-stating the ethanol content while also producing a brew with higher levels of mind-altering substances.

  Here is one such substance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophol When yeast are nutritionally stressed, they will often excrete amino acids and other chemicals with alcoholic functional groups attached. By tailoring the nutritional profile of the wort, you can select for higher or lower levels of these mind altering substances. I suspect it has something to do with how some beverages, notably cider(very poor nutrition for yeast) can give me a hangover before I even manage to fall asleep.

  In any case, it's fascinating that you can setup a brewery and crank out mind altering chemicals and be largely unregulated beyond the amounts of ethanol(and maybe methanol) in your products.

• by boomskats on 7/29/23, 9:36 PM

  I've had a subscription to David Nutt's Sentia Spirits [0] for a few months, which uses an extract from GABA Labs. I enjoy the mild effect and I do think they're onto something, but I have to mix it as it tastes a bit soapy (that's the red, I've yet to try sentia black).

  I like the idea that the subscription to Sentia funds the development of Alcarelle (the product mentioned in the article), but the overwhelming reason I subscribe to it is just to support Professor David Nutt[0]. He is a true scientist with true integrity and will be remembered as being on the right side of history. The way he was treated by the UK government at the hands of big booze is an absolute tragedy.

  [0]: https://sentiaspirits.com/ [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt

• by bluefishinit on 7/29/23, 2:51 PM

  I love my IPAs but I have to admit that the UK does social beer right. 3% or even 2.5% ales are the way to go if you want to socially drink. We have a concept of a "session" beer in the US, which is lower ABV but the selection of really good, really low gravity beers is the best in the UK as far as I can tell.

• by miduil on 7/29/23, 9:43 PM

  I've been three+ years sober, really can recommend. Life is much different now, things that used to be fun aren't anymore - but I'm making strong connections nevertheless.

• by thesz on 7/29/23, 10:57 PM

  My personal trainer once told me that athletes that become alcoholics belong to either endurance sports of various kinds or to archer or pistol shooting. The shooting sportsmen use small amounts of alcohol to reduce tremor [1], and small amounts of alcohol became bigger with time.

  [1] https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jhe1972/14/2/14_2_99/_p...

  The situation in endurance sports is very different. Very elevated count of mitochondria in cells of endurances athletes make their whole body a liver, basically - these mitochondria organelles get rid of alcohol metabolites during sleep very effectively. Top level endurance athlete drinks to heart content and does not experience a hangover the next day. It is all good and well for some time, athlete can drink everything for a long time, until he has his body physiologically depend on the alcohol, now this endurance athlete is an alcoholic.

  I saw an example of alcoholic former endurance athlete once in my life. It was not pretty. He drank anything he can find (or what he brought in) and sleep the work day throughout, delivering nothing.

• by hash872 on 7/29/23, 2:54 PM

  Wasn't synthetic alcohol part of the Star Trek mythos? It's been a long time since I've watched TNG but I seem to remember it was part of their world, at one point I have a vague memory of someone handing Picard a bottle of 'real' alcohol and him being amazed- 'this is the real stuff??' he asks? Or something to that effect.

  Maybe that's what Guinan was always serving at the Enterprise 'bar', synthetic alcohol. (Does Data ingest it? Can he?)

• by jdjdjdjdjd on 7/29/23, 9:28 PM

  I have discovered that for me personally, taking magnesium before, during or shortly after having drinks greatly reduces hangovers. I typically get really strong headaches the day after from 2-3 drinks. If I take a 100mg magnesium supplement it is massively reduced. Alcohol depletes magnesium from your body so I guess it counters that.

• by yawnbox on 7/29/23, 3:14 PM

  Acetaldehyde (from consuming alcoholic beverages)(1) is a Group 1 carcinogen, along with things like Asbestos. Does it fix that?

  [1] https://www.cancer.org/cancer/risk-prevention/understanding-...

• by Nihilartikel on 7/29/23, 10:20 PM

  Reading about this venture to make anf popularize GABA tickling drug without the self limiting ill effects is worrying in the long term.

  Such things exist, and sure, one is fine.. but one a day for a week and then you are heading for an undescribably hellish withdrawal.

  I had a brief dalliance with Phenibut for anxiety self medication. It targets GABA receptors, and boy does it work. But read about it in the forums and then you'll find the horror stories of people trying to quit, or running out and having months of nightmares and shakes and paranoia. I noped out of that in time, thankfully.

• by funkychicken on 7/29/23, 3:22 PM

  I love the idea of the nasal naltrexone. Naltrexone has been known for years to reduce the number of drinks consumed (by blocking opioid receptors).

  I wish we could figure out a better system for accessing medications like this — like perhaps allowing pharmacists to prescribe low risk medicines in more states.

• by Spivak on 7/29/23, 2:47 PM

  Smart to frame it as synthetic alcohol instead of as a drug because the US has decided that substances that make you feel good are tools of the devil.

  The one that really gets me is pain killers. I had to recover from surgery in the hospital for a few days where I couldn't do anything but lay there and focus on the pain. The only thing they we're allowed to give me was Tramadol which I can only describe as "it doesn't make any of the pain go away, it increases your ability to put up with it." The doctors know it's shit, the nurses know it's shit, they were apologizing constantly about it. We had all the tools available to make me not suffer at all during the experience but think that "getting high" is so terribly evil it's worth suffering for.

• by sourcecodeplz on 7/29/23, 3:15 PM

  The hangover is an essential part of drinking. It's what stops you from starting all over again the next day / week.

• by OJFord on 7/29/23, 3:14 PM

  The (main) problem with alcohol-free 'beer'/'wine'/etc. isn't the lack of drunkenness feeling?

  Especially beer has improved a lot but it's not there yet, I don't see how developing synthetic 'alcohol' will help when we still can't remove, or make the drink without causing, real alcohol?

  As for hormone shots to treat an already acquired hangover... It seems niche/less than ideal - I don't think many people would want that as a regular expected thing, 'I am going to drink heavily and then take a hormone shot in the morning' sort of thing? And isn't it a solved ('banana bag') problem? Or is it the idea that you could buy injectable hormones for home use whereas you can't (and probably shouldn't want to) self-cannulate at home, and that's the only way(?) banana bags can work (because it takes more than reasonably fits in a syringe? Needs to be administered at a more gradual flow?)?

  Personally I hope we find a way to remove alcohol without impacting taste at all, and then you can buy either version of the same drinks. I'd probably still get both, I do acknowledge the alcohol plays some role in me enjoying the drinks, but I can imagine having say an alcoholic pint or two, then alcohol-free. Or an alcoholic gin & tonic followed by AF wine. But until it's as good...

• by bratgpttamer on 7/29/23, 3:08 PM

  I read something a while back where the owner/CEO/VP/Head Brewer of Sam Adams, who was expected to go to certain beer/brewing events and basically have a beer with each vendor, would eat a packet of yeast beforehand.

  He claimed it allowed him to make his rounds and sample everyone's beer without getting drunk/hungover.

• by electrondood on 7/29/23, 9:50 PM

  500mg NAC before drinking, then a pint of water + fish oil + B vitamin complex before bed = zero hangover.

• by Animats on 7/29/23, 9:25 PM

  That's GABA Labs.[1] They've been working on this for years. They have a product, called "Sentia". It's plant-based and "natural", which avoids some regulatory problems. Their better product is an entirely synthetic molecule.

  It's self-limiting. It's said to produce a pleasant buzz, but more of it won't produce drunkenness.

  You can buy Sentia. It's insanely expensive.[2]

  [1] https://gabalabs.com/

  [2] https://sentiaspirits.com/collections/non-alcoholic-spirits

• by nunez on 7/29/23, 6:14 PM

  Pacing my drinks (sip every ten minutes; bigger drink of water between sips) and Pedialyte or Gatorade Zero after drinking if I've had a lot is the only system that works for me.

  I'm 36 and haven't had a serious hangover[0] in a very long time.

  As an added bonus, since I drink way slower when doing this, I can enjoy my drinks more and pay less for fewer drinks.

  Additionally, because I drink fewer drinks when I go out, I'm much more selective about what I drink, which means I'll opt for higher quality stuff or a good NA if no good options are available.

  YMMV of course.

  [0] I define "serious hangover" as "unable to get out of bed; serious nausea; serious brain fog." The worst hangover I've had since doing this is mild brain fog that recovers after a few hours.

• by 1ba9115454 on 7/29/23, 3:00 PM

  I've switched to alcohol free beers. They're a bit sweeter but for me it's fine.

• by PedroBatista on 7/29/23, 3:32 PM

  Oh great, I'm sure this will end as well as the pain pills from Purdue..

  There is a sizable minority of people who don't have a "governor" when it comes to drinking, we call them alcoholics.

  Then there is a big group of people who have some moderation, but part of that "moderation" are the hangovers and by the late 20's they start to hurt much more than consecutive nights of boozing can offer.

  Let's hope this is yet another pseudo-science piece to fluff some careers and little more, otherwise I'm guessing it could in the early 80's again when coke "was fun and gave you energy to do more even at work".. ( not the company line, but the general feeling in the streets )

• by Gud on 7/29/23, 3:36 PM

  Or better yet, legalize a wide range of drugs, slap some warning stickers on them. Like the Nutriscore you see in many countries, where an A rating won’t be too bad for you(green tea) and an F rating will lead to certain death(Fentanyl)

• by rdn on 7/29/23, 3:09 PM

  Looks like a rebranding of GHB

• by kleiba on 7/30/23, 1:07 AM

  Alcohol without the hangover? What an invention! Scientists are working on this. I mean, other scientists devote their lives to fighting cancer, AIDS, heart disease. These guys go, "No, I'm focusing on hangovers. Oh, sure, thousands of people are dying needlessly, but this, ptooey. That's gotta stop. You ever try and watch football the next day? It's almost impossible. I'm devoting my life to that."

• by spacemadness on 7/29/23, 3:11 PM

  The more interesting thing here to me is the nasal spray that can supposedly help alcoholics want to drink less. That could help a lot of people stay sober-ish if it’s effective, albeit there is a psychological component to just wanting to enter oblivion that it might not be effective for.

  Out of curiosity I tried the hangover cure on Nootropics Depot and found it to not really help at all. Not drinking helps the most so I stick with that normally these days.

• by CommanderData on 7/30/23, 12:14 AM

  Don't all types of alcohol damage cells, so a type that has no apparent after effects but the 'high' per se would cause people to consume even more. Why is this a good thing?

  Andrew Huberman did a pretty in depth podcast covering many things alcohol does to the body, masking it's apparent Ill effects can't be a good thing.

• by wittyusername on 7/30/23, 3:17 AM

  ZBiotics is a really exciting biotech startup that makes a GMO probiotic that digests Acetaldehyde, a byproduct of alcohol consumption that is a large part of hangovers. Personally think they reduce the effect of drinking by about 40%.

  www.Zbiotics.com

• by predictabl3 on 7/29/23, 10:50 PM

  Random, but this makes me wonder about Gabapentin. I had a family member take it and apparently acted very erratically, and reports online indicate that it might have similar effects as those boasted by these new drinks.

  Can any of the (armchair) pharmacologists shine any light for me? Thanks! I googled some, but I think I'm too inexperienced to even have a foothold to know where to start for researching or really even knowing what I need to understand to guess at this.

• by jimmydef on 7/30/23, 4:20 AM

  As someone with severe Asian flush, with an overactive ADH gene (gene that converts of alcohol to acetaldehyde) and 2 defective ALDH2 alleles (gene that breaks down acetaldehyde into harmless byproducts), I wish there is a way to repair these genes using MRNA. I don't feel even the mildest buzz from alcohol but I instantly get a hangover when I drink.

• by darkmarmot on 7/29/23, 10:30 PM

  We could replace alcohol with GHB. Done.

• by xyzelement on 7/30/23, 2:50 AM

  Not a big drinker but I find that I have a hangover from wine (sulfites?) and beer (carb overload?) but not tequila or mezcal. If I want to have a celebratory drink with dinner, mezcal is the no-regret-tomorrow choice at least for me. Plus being well hydrated.

• by jokowueu on 7/30/23, 5:48 AM

  Dr David butt has been persuing alcohol replacements for a while not but he was forced to redo many substitutes because of the difficulty to aquiring them . His earlier substitutes were much more fascinating compared to what he has selected now

• by thoughtegting on 7/29/23, 9:38 PM

  Some DHM (Dihydromyricetin) before heading out for drinks does the trick for me every time

• by andrewstuart on 7/29/23, 9:07 PM

  A hangover is primarily dehydration.

  Just drink alot of water during your drinking session or before bed.

• by porkbeer on 7/31/23, 3:42 AM

  Be aware many of these synthetics being sold now just break down into GHB. Thats why the websites selling them are so cagey on how they work. It is technically an illegal precursor.

• by Moldoteck on 7/30/23, 5:49 AM

  I've never understood how ppl get drunk with low alcohol drinks (beer/wine/something similar). After 1 beer I'm literally full, I feel my belly full and just can't push more

• by sacnoradhq on 7/30/23, 8:38 AM

  Just about the time I left university, the supplement "cure" RU-21 was touted as eliminating the hangover. The gotcha was dosing prior to drinking and dosing with each drink.

• by victorbstan on 7/29/23, 11:18 PM

  Lol pretty sure your liver is still going to die.

• by jokowueu on 7/30/23, 5:53 AM

  GHB could have been perfect if it wasn't so good , the dosage between a perfect buzz and blacking out is too thin

• by andrewl on 7/29/23, 3:00 PM

  It looks interesting. There’s a good bit of information, and marketing, of course, at gabalabs.com.

• by alexalx666 on 7/30/23, 12:50 AM

  I only have hangover after drinking wine or hard alcohol like whiskey, is this normal?

• by meindnoch on 7/30/23, 12:05 AM

  Just drink and/or huff ether. Same effect, shorter duration, no hangover.

• by manicennui on 7/30/23, 3:40 AM

  I rarely drink anymore. Edibles are superior in every way.

• by momirlan on 7/29/23, 11:08 PM

  and still, a hangover is the mildest effect of alcohol. impaired driving will give one a much stronger headache.

• by kmbfjr on 7/29/23, 11:52 PM

  How about without the liver disease?

• by SomeRndName11 on 7/29/23, 3:07 PM

  Alcohol is the most boring psychoactive substance ever, even Benadryl is more fun. I really do not understand those who enjoy the experience.