by csears on 7/14/23, 11:25 PM with 191 comments
I have an idea that has the potential to reduce fentanyl deaths, reduce drug-related violence, and improve operating margins for drug cartels. I assume the cartel leaders are essentially profit motivated, and would be interested in something that would prevent their customers from dying, cut down on the violence that brings law enforcement attention, and improve their profit margins. I realize it sounds a little crazy, but, hypothetically, how would I safely go about setting up meetings with cartels? I'm not even sure where to start or what kind of lawyer to check with for advice.
Email in my bio if you'd rather reach out directly.
Thanks!
by NotDEA on 7/15/23, 6:17 AM
Customers always come first in our line of work, so I’m always looking for ways to provide a high quality, safe experience with the drugs we provide and this idea sounds like it could be a game changer not just for us cartels, but also for savvy entrepreneurs like yourself.
I reached out directly to the email you provided in your bio (p.s. thanks for making it your real first and last name so there is no confusion on my end) and am eagerly awaiting your reply.
by valar_m on 7/15/23, 9:26 AM
You mentioned meeting with the DEA in another comment. Bring a lawyer when you go. You'll have to call around to find one who will agree to put you in jeopardy of criminal prosecution when no liability presently exists. Look for an inexperienced solo practice attorney who needs the money. Don't waste your time calling large firms or any attorneys with a reputation they'd want to keep.
Be ready to give the agents every detail when you meet with them. If you hold anything material back, they'll add an additional count to the indictment for violating 18 U.S.C. § 1001.
Miranda warnings won't apply here, so you won't get the "right to remain silent" spill. That won't come until you're actually in handcuffs during the arrest. Everything you say in the meeting will still be admissible at your trial, however.
If you have any pets, you need to go ahead and find new homes for them. Dogs, especially anything over 5 lbs, tend to get shot when arrest warrants are served. Nobody wants to say it out loud, but honestly it's a better way to go than slowly starving to death in your home while you're in custody.
After you're arrested, you're going to need a new attorney. The good news is that you'll finally be able to hire a more reputable attorney to take your case.
> I know there have been situations where federal agencies have turned out to be "the bad guys", but I guess I'm optimistic that they are generally smart, well intentioned, and interested in some of the same outcomes that I'm talking about.
Oh, they're gonna be very friendly and super interested in your ideas.
by discretion22 on 7/15/23, 12:06 AM
First off, saying that you have an idea to "improve their [Cartels] profit margins" by itself is enough to fall foul of the US DEA. Even if you are not in the US, the DEA has plenty of official and unofficial routes to target you and make life unbearably difficult or extradite you to the US where they can really mess you about.
Fentanyl is primarily sourced from China and is knowingly brought in by cartels - it's not an accident it's in drugs and killing people and both China and the cartels are well aware of that and don't care. You're talking about people who torture indiscriminately and dump decapitated bodies in play parks to 'send messages' over minor issues like someone being on the wrong street that they consider their turf.
You're not going to get a "zoom call" with them and you're not going to be able to set up any sort of mutually beneficial business relationship.
by TheAlchemist on 7/15/23, 2:06 PM
Cartels figured they need somebody to setup sophisticated communication systems - do you think they asked a company for help ? They just kidnapped the people they found working on communications towers, made them do the job, then buried them.
Sorry but your idea of trying to work with a cartel is beyond stupid. With a lot of luck, you could end up working for them. As a slave.
by Michelangelo11 on 7/15/23, 2:28 PM
If that happens, you are in bed with some of the most ruthless and powerful people in the world, who can certainly kill you and/or your family members even if you're in the U.S., if they want to kill you bad enough. And if you somehow manage to bring a lot of value to the table, they will want to bring you deeper into the fold so they have more control over you and, if you refuse, will probably kill you so that rival cartels can't get their hands on what you have.
And this is what happens in the outcome you _want_ to achieve! OP, especially considering you have a family (you mentioned a daughter in one post), none of this makes sense.
by withinboredom on 7/15/23, 8:50 AM
It seems you want to deal with multiple cartels at the same time. This is suicide. If you do it anyway, treat them all equally, show no favoritism, never compare them. Think of it as having a bunch of aunt/uncles who always tell you that you’re their favorite. They’ll buy you gifts to get you to say it back.
The other side of this: if your software has a bug and causes profits to go down… you might be on the hook for that. Make sure you make it clear that you aren’t responsible for their profits. Yes, your software MAY increase their profits, but they’re responsible for execution, not your software.
Note, this is second-hand advice from a friend.
by jacknobody on 7/14/23, 11:29 PM
by ttul on 7/15/23, 3:36 PM
by tlb on 7/14/23, 11:45 PM
Monopolies get pitches for new products all the time, but their answer is:
- If it's any good, why isn't it already growing?
- We'll wait and see if it grows. If it does, we'll just muscle our way in.
- Have fun, kid. We'll let you know when it's time to join us.
by rTX5CMRXIfFG on 7/15/23, 11:01 AM
by throwaway_1288 on 7/15/23, 6:20 PM
There is also a third option of this just being a joke and I have to admit it is pretty funny to imagine you on a Zoom call the Cartel, screen sharing some kind of a process deck you made in Google slides.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you actually are not stupid enough to think you could get on a Zoom call with a cartel member, so that means this is most likely a growth stunt, but I have to second guess myself there too because this post has made you look like such a dunce I can't imagine you showing up to work on Monday proud to share the results of this with the growth team.
Friendly advice for next time would be to post this from an account that is not tied directly to who you are as a person
by LinuxBender on 7/14/23, 11:34 PM
Not an expert on this but my understanding is that since El Chapo Joaquín Guzmán was taken down his cartel splintered and they are no longer operating like a business not that it would have helped your goal here. This would probably be an extra-risky riskier and insane time to try to meet with them. If you are dead set on doing this I would guess that the least risky way to get a message to them would be to talk to a Sheriff in a border town that deals with their drug and people smugglers and knows what people can relay a message to them. They will advise against this as well. I would not try to meet them in person.
Here is one of them [1] give this reporter or Sheriff a call. He's in Yuma County, AZ. Have thick skin, they are going to give you a hard time. Maybe hire an actor from South America the cartel might respect and pay the actor to make a short to-the-point video the cartel may enjoy watching.
by raincom on 7/14/23, 11:51 PM
by dt3ft on 7/15/23, 2:25 PM
by kirubakaran on 7/15/23, 7:30 PM
(Posting this only as you seem to have decided to low-key reveal the ruse)
by scrollbar on 7/15/23, 2:45 PM
by anigbrowl on 7/14/23, 11:46 PM
by neilk on 7/15/23, 10:00 PM
If you are sincere, I have difficulty understanding how you have functioned in society for apparently decades. My guess is that you have figured out that being laughably wrong on the internet is a great way to drive traffic. In which case thanks for wasting everyone’s time. But there’s no obvious hook here other than HN karma?
If not, then I am concerned you are literally, unironically, having a mental breakdown of some kind. Mania perhaps. If you still think your idea is worthwhile, maybe you should ask someone you trust if your behavior has been off lately and get checked out by a doctor.
by jcpham2 on 7/15/23, 3:07 PM
The person that made the suggestion to Sanitize your profile and remove the employer has a sense of self preservation.
Is it 8 AM in California yet?
by bacchusracine on 7/15/23, 2:45 PM
I'm sorry but you strike me as criminally naive.
by rchaud on 7/15/23, 2:11 PM
El Chapo's family office is putting together a term sheet as we speak!
by arkitaip on 7/14/23, 11:32 PM
by kuhewa on 7/15/23, 9:09 AM
by somedude895 on 7/15/23, 6:32 AM
by catchnear4321 on 7/15/23, 2:29 PM
set the information free.
if you aren’t aiming to make a profit, let the cartels find it. release the idea into the wind, and hope it finds its way. and you go back to yours.
if you are, you have a much bigger problem than the cartels. (it’s you.)
by Someone on 7/15/23, 3:13 PM
If not, why don’t you just publish your idea and be the one who reduced fentanyl deaths and violence?
by JumpinJack_Cash on 7/15/23, 2:03 PM
by facorreia on 7/15/23, 3:46 PM
You mentioned that you want to improve drug cartel profit margins. Is that the reason why you want to connect to them directly instead of sharing your idea publicly?
Are you planning to propose sharing on some of that profit margin increase on drug dealing? Is this some sort of "growth hacking" for drug cartels? Is your company on board with you working for drug cartels?
And finally, did you mention that HN mods are OK with the site being used as a medium for assisting in contacting drug cartels with intent of increasing their profit margins?
by actuallyrizzn on 7/15/23, 11:50 AM
Go to federal prison.
You'll make the contacts necessary to do whatever you're trying to do.
by JumpinJack_Cash on 7/15/23, 1:49 PM
You'd be the first person in the world to consume a novel drug, this should give you enough pleasure (plus of course the pleasure from the drug) to completely abandon the idea of making money doing business with cartels, hell it could completely turn you off to the idea of money at all, if not to continue producing and consuming the drug.
It's a choice, you mentioned better operating margins so I guess your idea makes the drug cheaper to make? This gives you a slower burn rate and thus a longer runway.
I have a feeling that you won't go through with this idea, but in the future remember that any idea which require you to speak with the bosses of an existing organization to completely overhaul their production system should be discarded because it's not actionable and just a waste of time. This idea adds the illegal bit which is of course a whole other story.
by RecycledEle on 7/15/23, 2:27 PM
Drug cartels do not respond to people they did not meet organically. You could be a cop trying to set them up, so they ignore you. You could be a rival looking to harm them, so they ignore you.
If you get too annoying, they may hurt you. People who value human life do not generally traffic illegal / street drugs.
by CobaltFire on 7/15/23, 6:55 PM
This time it’s far, FAR more illegal than you seem to think.
I imagine this will have some interesting ramifications on your future employment opportunities, since you managed to nicely link it to your real identity.
by geophile on 7/15/23, 12:09 AM
by 1letterunixname on 7/15/23, 6:25 PM
You're not going to do any good because criminals don't give AF about something that isn't their mission. Ending the prohibition War on Drugs is the best path that even LEOs admit is an abject (and racist and classist) failure. [0]
0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Action_Partner...
by costco on 7/15/23, 6:35 PM
by dataangel on 7/15/23, 2:29 PM
by lamontcg on 7/16/23, 5:34 AM
they don't care. there's more getting hooked to replace them every day.
there's no profit in lifting a finger to prevent the deaths, it is all a perfectly acceptable moral cost of doing business (for people who are very willing to kill in cold blood).
your mental model of the cartels and their motivations and business model is very broken.
by zeagle on 7/15/23, 7:11 PM
by dragonwriter on 7/15/23, 11:05 AM
> I assume the cartel leaders are essentially profit motivated, and would be interested in something that would prevent their customers from dying, cut down on the violence that brings law enforcement attention, and improve their profit margins.
This is probably a matter on which you should have done some research that does not involve discussing your idea before deciding to move forward with making even a vague outline of your thoughts public.
> I realize it sounds a little crazy
“A little crazy” is something you might, barely, be able to see in the distance if you look back toward normal right now.
> I'm not even sure where to start or what kind of lawyer to check with for advice.
Well, really, almost any lawyer before posting about it publicly would probably have been a good idea. Not about “how do I execute this idea”, because that is presupposing the answer to several other questions you’ve skipped over.
(Looking at your other posts)
> I'm in the US and I would actually be very interested in chatting with the DEA about my idea.
There are certain enforcement agencies whose approach to certain laws within their scope of enforcement responsibility is primarily to inform and guide so that people don’t get into the position where the less friendly enforcement actions become necessary.
But it has never beem my impression that that’s the DEA’s approach to anything, especially plans to help drug cartels increase their profit margins.
> I know there have been situations where federal agencies have turned out to be "the bad guys", but I guess I'm optimistic that they are generally smart, well intentioned, and interested in some of the same outcomes that I'm talking about.
Some of them, maybe. The problem is that some of the outcomes you are talking about are very much anti-goals of those agencies, and stopping people who are actively pursuing them is an objective likely to trump those that might be shared.
It sounds like if there is a non-insane idea at the core of the very bad execution concept you have laid out—and it sounds like it is some harm reduction approach, which is a fraught area for a number of reasons—and you want to acheive it without getting yourself killed by the cartels (or, more likely, the people you try to work your way through to reach them) and/or killed or imprisoned by law enforcement, you need to stop talking about your concept of execution and do some real researxh on the actors and institutions and structures (government and otherwise) in this space, and understand their goals, operating patterns, organization structures. etc., much better than you do, to evaluate if there is a viable approach to broaching your idea, and which actors (institutionally, by position within institutions, and bt specific named individuals) you should be going to to pitch it, based on institutional, positional, and personal interests, constraints, and capacities.
The naive generalized ideas about cartels and relevant law enforcement agencies you have are juat going to get you in deep trouble, otherwise.
This is not a situation where going forward with a half-considered idea and relying on the good intentions, procedural flexibility, and open civic mindedness and willingness to cooperate of drug cartel members and law enforcement agents is going to be a viable strategy.
by protocolture on 7/14/23, 11:53 PM
The Cartels themselves? Probably looking at finding someone who knows someone who knows someone. Maybe a billboard?
The government of your country who might not enjoy you assisting the cartels? You probably fucked that up already.
by rurban on 7/15/23, 9:59 AM
by abrookewood on 7/16/23, 2:58 AM
by qzuipo on 7/15/23, 3:20 PM
by Brillaughte on 7/16/23, 2:28 PM
by johnparmesan on 7/15/23, 3:26 PM
17 E 62nd St New York City, NY 10065-7204
Telephone: 212-408-5520
by tayo42 on 7/15/23, 2:26 PM
by zer8k on 7/15/23, 7:04 PM
by AFK74u on 7/16/23, 3:11 PM
With all this traction you should apply to Why Combinator.
by alex_suzuki on 7/15/23, 7:43 AM
by AFK74u on 7/16/23, 3:10 PM
by andrejguran on 7/15/23, 7:51 PM
by ankaAr on 7/15/23, 11:55 AM
by VoodooJuJu on 7/15/23, 10:02 AM
by boeingUH60 on 7/15/23, 3:42 PM
by jimmychoozyx on 7/15/23, 2:35 PM
Off the top of my head though my "idea-marketing" strategy for your case, would be:
- Contact narco influencers on Tiktok & other social platforms
- Contact narco lawyers & ask them to forward your message
- Take out entire page advertisements in main Mexican newspapers for 1-2 months