from Hacker News

Recreate the cavity-preventing GMO bacteria BCS3-L1 from precursor

by flaque on 7/12/23, 11:09 PM with 184 comments

• by akrolsmir on 7/13/23, 2:18 AM

  Oh wow -- totally didn't expect one of our grant proposals to be trending on HN! I'm Austin, cofounder at Manifund; we just launched our regranting program last week (https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/RMXctNAksBgXgoszY/...) and are currently looking out for cool grants (like this one!) to fund.

  Happy to answer any questions!

• by fsckboy on 7/13/23, 4:24 AM

  it's shocking that it hasn't been mentioned (ok, except by me in another comment) but flouridating municipal water systems through/after the 1960's at least in the US had a huge impact on the number of cavities/caries among children. Yuge. There are suspicions that fouride isn't good for us, and I mean beyond our precious bodily essences too, but in terms of teeth, it's been miraculous.

  I'm just mentioning it because people are talking about bacteria being "the deciding factor" to account for differences in outcomes, and there's a flouride elephant in that room.

• by modeless on 7/13/23, 1:06 AM

  > the developing company declined to go to market, and instead pivoted

  I'd want to hear a lot more about why this happened before I invested in this. I've been hearing about this bacteria for years and the story gives me strong "miracle carburetor" vibes.

• by wdwvt1 on 7/13/23, 2:13 AM

  I love the spirit of this grant but it has big "programmer knows better then pharma" vibes. At a first glance:

  1) The original strain (BCS3-L1) is a clinically derived isolate with who knows what properties. Why not just take the well characterized ATCC/DSMZ strain and knock out the lactate dehydrogenase? I am sure the FDA would look more kindly on a better characterized strain - especially since you don't need whatever wild type mutations it has to keep it in the dental microbiome (the lantibiotic does that).

  2) Who pays for this? Why? Finding the appropriate payer for a pharmaceutical intervention is difficult. Getting this through FDA trial costs (let's say) $200 million dollars. At the point of sale (PCP, dentist) the competitive product will be...toothpaste and a toothbrush. Getting a patient or insurance to purchase this under current models of care is going to be extremely difficult.

• by KingMachiavelli on 7/13/23, 12:51 AM

  I would try this in a heartbeat, cavities IME seem to be mostly genetic or per-person microbiome environmental thing. The fact that without daily maintenance our teeth can just rot away to a point where severe infection and/or death seems just like a major flaw we should be trying a lot harder to fix.

• by at_a_remove on 7/13/23, 12:59 AM

  Dr. Hillman, I was right!

  I had written him well over a decade ago, I want to say 2008. He has long since retired, but the gist of the hints in our correspondence was that this was something the FDA just didn't have a conceptual slot for, and that was creating a great deal of impedance. I believe he had gotten as far as Phase IB in testing.

• by superqd on 7/13/23, 3:03 AM

  So... is the existence, or non-existence, of a certain bacteria why some people never get cavities? I'm sure there can be multiple factors, but I'm 51 and never had a cavity, but don't really know the specifics of what might be different about the environment of my mouth that seems to discourage, or not encourage, the formation of cavities.

• by Hizonner on 7/13/23, 1:39 AM

  It "persists in the mouth indefinitely".

  It's "been in the mouths of fewer than 15 people".

  This was in 2003, so I'm guessing they're not all dead.

  I'll stake 'em a box of cotton swabs...

• by RamblingCTO on 7/13/23, 9:04 AM

  I think the section about why we should trust the project founder is quite funny. Something like "I did video games and stuff". And MIRI is AI, operations lead sounds like administration? So no relevant experience. While I can respect someone doing a moonshot, really I do, but maybe, just maybe get someone with relevant experience on board? I'd love to see this happen, but this doesn't help their case imho.

  -I spent five years at MIRI as Operations Lead. -I produce a video game that's #42 in category on Patreon, with an 11-person team, making six-figures with >1,000,000 downloads. -I run Heist and Geist and Heist: Sunlit Forge; welcometotheheist.com -I'm nominated for the Nebula for fiction, and was published in Asterisk three days ago under the name Jamie Wahls. -I run Aella's media empire.

• by heydemo on 7/13/23, 2:00 AM

  A product that permanently cures all cavities would have a valuation of hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of dollars.

  Is it plausible a company would choose to sell mouth wash instead and that the cure would remain undeveloped for 20 years?

• by Escapado on 7/13/23, 6:26 AM

  Super exciting stuff and it got me thinking: could we genetically engineer bacteria to get rid of morning breath? I would like to think (and so does my dentist) I have very good oral hygiene* and I get regular checkups where everything is fine but when I wake up the taste in my mouth and my breath are really unpleasant. The last time I had to be on antibiotics for a longer time I noticed it was severely lessened but came back just as strong after.

  * My routine includes brushing my teeth 3x per day for 3 minutes with an ultrasonic toothbrush, I use an interdental brush at night, I use a tongue scraper in the morning and at night and I do an occasional chx mouthwash and semi-regular salt water rinses.

• by anandvc on 7/13/23, 3:33 AM

  Newbie question: Can someone help me understand how adding a new benign bacteria helps prevent infection by the other cavity-causing bacteria? Do they "fight" each other?

• by londons_explore on 7/13/23, 12:42 PM

  http://www.oragenics.com/news-media/press-releases/detail/35...

  Wouldn't there be patent problems with reproducing this? Unless Oragenics is willing to license/give up their patent?

• by bilsbie on 7/13/23, 1:01 AM

  Is the link wrong? I don’t see any details.

  Also how does this compare to bacteria like s. salivarius ?

• by wolpoli on 7/13/23, 1:11 AM

  Is the plan to cultivate the bacteria from the 1 of the 15 test subjects?

• by jimnotgym on 7/13/23, 6:14 AM

  > After a single application, this strain persists in the mouth indefinitely,

  In which case you only need to find a person from the original trial and get it from them. You don't need to recreate it?

• by teaearlgraycold on 7/13/23, 2:06 AM

  This would be a huge win for humanity! But I suppose the downside is many people might stop brushing their teeth - and I doubt this new bacteria won't smell bad.

• by swader999 on 7/13/23, 12:16 PM

  They should pursue vet market first, less regulatory hurdles.

• by obblekk on 7/13/23, 3:50 AM

  If I wanted to buy an atcc bacteria, what’s the easiest way to get access to a BSL1 lab that they’ll agree to ship to?

  Is BSL1 even certified or self attested?

• by PeterStuer on 7/13/23, 6:32 AM

  As with everything in biology there are tradeoffs. What is the tradeoff here?

• by NoMoreNicksLeft on 7/13/23, 12:51 AM

  Which state is this company located in?

  We should go to our state legislators and demand they use eminent domain on it. Maybe first after having the AG go to a judge for an injunction against destroying it (out of spite).

• by PlunderBunny on 7/13/23, 2:55 AM

  Wikipedia article on carries vaccines:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caries_vaccine#