from Hacker News

France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

by u2077 on 7/6/23, 2:09 PM with 439 comments

  • by donatj on 7/6/23, 3:00 PM

    United States, couple years ago my friend in his mid-thirties was feeling depressed after his mom died. Came over to hang out, and wasn’t responding to his sisters calls.

    His sister called in a welfare check on him and suddenly I have three cops knocking at my front door. They ask for him by name, say he isn’t in trouble. I go get him; he asks “how did you know where I was?” and the cops say “we pinged your phone”. What that entails exactly I have no clue.

    Later I pulled up the video of them arriving on my cameras, they didn’t approach any of my neighbors houses first. It was just right to my front door like they knew exactly where he was. Kinda spooky.

  • by Awelton on 7/6/23, 2:45 PM

    They could at least have the decency to just secretly do it and then pretend like they aren't, like our government does. This is why physical switches and removable batteries are the only way forward.

  • by hinata08 on 7/6/23, 2:27 PM

    I regret getting a pixel, and not a fairphone with a removable battery

    With the current level of oversight on the police (police of police is a meme by now), and the level of cybersecurity at the government, everyone's phones will be activated within a few months.

    At least some government agent will have fun watching what ppl visit on the internet during their spare time, and can enable the camera to watch what they're doing when they review the content.

    The fight against crime is ramping up !

    I don't get why they don't hire back more detectives and accountants to really investigate actual evidence, instead of just listening to potential criminals for hours. They have been reducing the force for 15 years (especially the forces that investigated financial and workplace crimes)

    That would be more effective.

  • by cm2187 on 7/6/23, 2:40 PM

    I am confused. Are they mandating a backdoor, or is there already a backdoor, or are they allowing the police to exploit zero days? If it is the latter, it is sad that the authorities assume weak security as a given.

  • by karaterobot on 7/6/23, 2:20 PM

    > But lawmakers agreed to the bill late Wednesday as Justice Minister Eric Dupond-Moretti insisted the bill would affect only “dozens of cases a year.”

    Technically he is not lying or naive, because any number, including large numbers like 66 million, can be expressed in units of dozens.

  • by sixhobbits on 7/6/23, 2:14 PM

    what tech does this even use? Do they mean using Pegasus or similar malware that the govt has to first get onto the suspect's devices, or is this via Google/Apple or the device manufacturers that makes 'remotely and secretly activating a microphone' even possible?

  • by taoufix on 7/6/23, 2:57 PM

    Don't forget the call to block social media sites during riots by the Frnace's president [1]

    [0]: https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20230705-macron-s-call-to...

  • by m-p-3 on 7/6/23, 2:32 PM

    Can we get the European Union to mandate physical toggles and shutters for mic and camera, now that they're also pushing for user-replaceable batteries?

  • by olivierduval on 7/6/23, 3:12 PM

    Actually it's not really a big news:

    * right now: Law Enforcement need the decision of a judge to do this (when they technically can, either using 0-day or maybe asking for the phone provider to upload a malicious app under their service app)

    * after the law: Law Enforcement will be able to do THE SAME without the need for a judge under some specific (but not really restrictive, like national security) conditions

    So, all in all, it will just shorten the time needed by Law Enforcement to hack some suspected citizen and it won't require a judge. Is it a shame for the democracy ? Yes, obviously. Is it a change in the way for the State to spy its people ? No, sadly.

    Will there be a debate about what individual freedom may be taken of citizen in the name of national/public security ? No, obviously. And sadly.

  • by LocalH on 7/6/23, 2:24 PM

    From the French Revolution, to this. How far the mighty have fallen.

  • by lloeki on 7/6/23, 2:42 PM

    Hmm, is it a new thing or last month's bill? Without any source nor reference in TFA it's hard to tell.

    https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2023/06/08/l-activati...

  • by hackandthink on 7/6/23, 2:43 PM

    Civil rights are a favor that can be revoked at any time. Ultimately, there are too few who stand up for them.

    Today I read an article by Bernard-Henri Lévy, a liberal intellectual. He downplays police violence, order must be restored, how is not so important.

  • by debacle on 7/6/23, 2:15 PM

    > They noted that a judge must approve any use of the provision

    We tried the same in the US. Our intel agencies just lied to the judges, who mostly otherwise were hip to the con and acted as a rubber stamp.

  • by knaik94 on 7/6/23, 2:32 PM

    From an opsec standpoint, would leaving the phone in airplane mode and turning off location services effectively block access to the phone?

    From my understanding airplane mode disables the sim, wifi, gps, and bluetooth entirely, but it's possible to re-enable wifi, gps, and bluetooth. It's something I got into the habit of doing because my phone searching for 4g cellular data ate into my battery.

  • by brianstorms on 7/6/23, 3:20 PM

    I figure the day's coming when cops will be able to remotely activate the inside camera and microphone in a Tesla, or remotely disable the car and/or have it pull over, etc. Perhaps first in China, but probably everywhere eventually.

  • by flenserboy on 7/6/23, 2:22 PM

    Physical switches are necessary on devices.

  • by nimbius on 7/6/23, 2:28 PM

    reminder that fdroid offers apps that will monopolize the microphone so it cannot be used by other programs (pilfershush for example.)

    electrical tape on your camera should take care of the rest, and developer mode lets you feed the system bogus GPS data at will.

  • by h2odragon on 7/6/23, 2:52 PM

    Give up yer phones.

    Will it become illegal to be phoneless person, or will it just make such people into an untouchable caste?

  • by hackan on 7/6/23, 2:48 PM

    This is exactly why we need GrapheneOS in airplane mode w/o SIM, and a secondary phone w/ cam and mic removed as wifi hotspot

  • by Garvi on 7/6/23, 4:21 PM

    5 min after implementation the first corrupt cop is going to sell the software that handles the backdoor access to shady characters(criminal elements, foreign actors) for use or reverse engineering.

  • by chillbill on 7/6/23, 2:38 PM

    And here ladies and gents we see the reason why the riots were allowed to stay as long and why they were so violent.

    Expect the riots to end in a couple of days.

  • by mytailorisrich on 7/6/23, 2:44 PM

    > They noted that a judge must approve any use of the provision, while the total duration of the surveillance cannot exceed six months.

    So essentially this is like getting a warrant to install a bugging device. Just that nowadays everyone carries said bugging device in the form of a smartphone and this law allows a judge to authorise turning it on (assuming it is technically possible).

  • by littlestymaar on 7/6/23, 2:33 PM

    France has been slowly drifting away from the democratic countries for the past decade, it's disheartening to watch it in real time…

  • by dangerboysteve on 7/6/23, 3:00 PM

    Time for the hardware makers to start adding physical on/off switches for the microphone and cameras.

  • by mouzogu on 7/6/23, 2:33 PM

    i'm going to assume they've been doing this probably for many years (5-eyes at least).

    from the wikileaks, if they can do it, they will do it.

    and this bill is just a formality imo.

  • by LatteLazy on 7/6/23, 4:29 PM

    The level of government surveillance, in the EU, UK, US and elsewhere is already so massively OTT, that we have all the downsides around self-censorship, parallel construction, subversion of democracy etc.

    So why not actually use the possible up sides of these dangerous immoral systems?

  • by atlantic on 7/6/23, 3:36 PM

    I keep my phone stored in a pouch, so the mic is muffled and the camera blocked, when not in use. If I want to go somewhere without being tracked, I leave it at home. I've done this for years. I always act on the assumption that I'm under surveillance.

  • by meerita on 7/6/23, 2:26 PM

    I think it's unpracticable unless they install a backdoor on each phone.

  • by entriesfull on 7/6/23, 4:35 PM

    Can people stop pretending already that these governments actually go through legal systems to backdoor and spy on people??

    These patriot act type laws are just there to normalize their spying crimes in your eyes. Also to make people self censor themselves from criticizing their government.

    No they don't prevent any sort of attacks because the attackers wouldn't be stupid enough to talk over their personal phones.

    Let that sink in. They take away your privacy while not preventing any big attacks.

  • by foobarian on 7/6/23, 2:22 PM

    I misread that as "retroactively" at first and am feeling relieved now. Which I shouldn't be!

  • by garfieldnate on 7/7/23, 7:36 AM

    So how does this work technically? Does the bill require, for example, Apple to build the capability to remotely activate the microphone and camera on their laptops? Or does it just say that the government can use their magic spy tech to do this when they want to?

  • by HashThis on 7/6/23, 3:57 PM

    Why does Apple (iPhone) and Google (Android OS) give software access for governments to do this? One needs to disallow this. And then we need to buy that phone over the other. Transparency, competition and the power of customers must drive this.

  • by jayess on 7/6/23, 2:41 PM

    Time for phones to have a solid-state switch for microphones and cameras.

  • by lost_tourist on 7/6/23, 2:48 PM

    The French have a long history of fighting for freedom, I'm surprised they'd roll over and let their government have a pocket recorder on them at all times 24/7.

  • by s1k3s on 7/6/23, 2:39 PM

    Doesn't the iPhone have a hardwired thing that displays the red dot when the camera is on? I guess they can say goodbye to all that "privacy first" marketing.

  • by hoyd on 7/6/23, 2:23 PM

  • by throwaway1777 on 7/6/23, 2:48 PM

    Is it time to flat out abandon smartphones?

  • by cde-v on 7/6/23, 2:19 PM

    I'm sure this will stop the rioting.

  • by notfed on 7/7/23, 12:31 AM

    > Justice Minister Eric Dupond-Moretti insisted the bill would affect only “dozens of cases a year.”

    Famous last words.

  • by ShamelessGenius on 7/6/23, 3:07 PM

    Privacy and anonymity is an illusion...

  • by faramarz on 7/6/23, 3:01 PM

    Well... industry taps into all your mic, gps and image library to send you personalized ads, and no one has really called it out, except be surprised when the ad shows up a minute after mentioning a product.. this to me sounds like tapping into the existing frameworks. likely the app providers giving access if not the phone manufacturer themselves.

  • by t0bia_s on 7/7/23, 7:07 AM

    Why are we still adopting small steps that makes our authorities like those in China?

  • by qwertyuiop_ on 7/6/23, 2:35 PM

    Never let a crisis go to waste.

  • by m3kw9 on 7/6/23, 2:48 PM

    Mostly what this means is police is allowed to use Pegasus type hacks

  • by FollowingTheDao on 7/6/23, 2:41 PM

    I have purchased Faraday bags just for this occasion!

  • by morninglight on 7/6/23, 4:08 PM

    Ce qui est bon pour l'oie est bon pour le jars.

  • by villgax on 7/6/23, 3:37 PM

    Time to make custom phone OSes on Pi or Arduinos now

  • by cheekibreeki2 on 7/6/23, 3:00 PM

    Lol that's cute that they asked.

  • by tempodox on 7/6/23, 3:29 PM

    What could possibly go wrong.

  • by m3kw9 on 7/6/23, 2:50 PM

    iOS lockdown mode finally gets a use case

  • by adamc on 7/6/23, 2:42 PM

    Just stop carrying your phone. Problem solved.

  • by rvz on 7/6/23, 4:38 PM

    Like I said, you got what you voted for.

  • by Iwan-Zotow on 7/6/23, 3:55 PM

    Putin did it!

  • by LovinFossilFuel on 7/6/23, 3:14 PM

    ...alll the while personal mobile devices get more and more mandated by all the tech BS. Try to perform basic tasks like doing a wire transfer / SEPA transaction without in ~5 years.

  • by Animatronio on 7/6/23, 2:29 PM

    Meanwhile China is bad.

  • by alienicecream on 7/6/23, 3:32 PM

    Oops, they invited all the foreigners in and they're rebelling, now they have to spy on us to control them. Well played.

  • by le_pet on 7/6/23, 2:31 PM

    That sounds very reasonable, similar to installing a bugging device in the house of a suspect, to gather more evidence.

    The neat thing about mobile phones is that such a bugging capability comes built-in. The police should certainly be allowed to use this in the course of investigative duties.