by nikhizzle on 4/11/23, 5:49 PM with 261 comments
Submitted 150 job applications last week. Got one interview with a recruiter. Had a few interview rounds over the last few months through old coworkers, they all lasted several months with long pauses - one still going 4 months in.
How is it going for everyone else searching right now? Is it just me?
by moosedev on 4/11/23, 6:14 PM
~15 YOE, FAANG experience, usually only applying to roles I feel I’m at least a halfway good fit for (i.e. not a complete scattergun approach).
I’m (financially) fine for now, which is very fortunate. I wasn’t even laid off - I quit voluntarily and took a sabbatical while the good times were rollin’. But since I started looking seriously again, it’s been hard to shake the sense of time disappearing with nothing to show for it. I’m better at Leetcode (ugh) than I’ve ever been, but so is everyone else, and with the slow drip of actual interviews, I only get to demonstrate it once or twice a month :)
ETA: A few of the recruiters I have talked with have mentioned that they’re getting hundreds of applications within hours of a posting going live. So there is likely a “lost in volume” effect as another commenter mentioned. In fact, for some of the roles where I thought I was a great fit but got a generic rejection without a recruiter call, I’ve had some eventual success simply reapplying for the same role, at least when the recruiting platform allows it (some don’t). For reasons of culture and upbringing, it took me a while to get comfortable not taking that initial, faceless “no” for an answer, but it has worked at least twice so far.
by pkaler on 4/11/23, 6:59 PM
I structure the hour-long phone screen to be 1/3 coding, 1/3 behavioural questions, and 1/3 career growth and questions for me.
We rarely get out of the coding question block. It's a fairly simple question that ChatGPT solves easily. The tightest solution is about 10 lines of code. It can be answered either with iterative, recursive, or functional code. There is a general case, an empty case, and an exceptional case. It's the type of code I was able to write after completing CMPT 101. I had to change the question since it was so easily solvable by ChatGPT.
Engineers with years of experience at FAANG and similar companies cannot solve this straightforward problem. It's like, what have you been doing with your life? Did everyone do nothing during ZIRPy times and have accumulated years of rust that they now need to shake off?
by 1differential on 4/11/23, 6:30 PM
My most memorable was this tier 3 hedge fund trying to convince me to take a junior IC role for a new team that had also hired a manager and director from outside the company for a new endeavor/initiative, and the manager had been at his last 3 jobs for roughly over a year each, get out of here lol.
by Plasmoid on 4/11/23, 6:26 PM
I'm not sure how many are genuine compared to scatter-shot applications but it means that a lot of recruiters have to dig through huge piles of resumes and odds are good that you're just being missed in the volume.
There are much fewer resumes for specialized/higher level roles than for junior roles. Infra or Security roles get much fewer applications than junior SWE.
On a personal note, I've noticed that recruiter reach outs have increased since mid-February.
by ReDeiPirati on 4/11/23, 8:56 PM
Context for you: I'm a mid-level Growth PM based in Europe who worked mostly in early stage B2B YC startups.
How am I doing? This is my 11th week in job search, 96 applications, 10 interviews (1 still active), and 0 offer.
My insights so far:
- there's definitively no rush from employers to close their openings, and for the first time in a job search (this is my 4th) I got 2 interviews suspended because they decided to prioritize another leadership hire before closing for the role that I was interviewing for;
- most of the mid level openings are masqueraded senior roles;
I feel so bad for people early in their career, for the first time I think I've never encountered an entry level opening... I was trying to also help my wife to get a job in tech (she is very early in her career), but currently it doesn't seem possible.
Luckily we are financially ok, which is the main thing that allowed me to stay positive, in relatively good mood, and don't feel overwhelmed with the daily rejections.
by flashgordon on 4/12/23, 3:46 PM
1. Every company wants to show off it's "really high bar" ... For building yet another crud service ... handling 1qps (that is still a 100k qpd so don't laugh at it).
2. So they read about what the fangs do and naturally copy all the terrible parts (impact impact impact, more artifacts just for evidence, write realms and realms of repeated documents before writing a line of code so you can show "influence", leetcode and more). Why aren't they copying the good parts - oh we are still a small company and tight on resources.
3. Naturally they couldn't demand this when the market was hot. Now they feel unleashed. So are going nuts either in the form of taking their sweet time ("evaluate and dig deep into our hiring pipeline") or with ridiculous and arbitrary hiring loops. (I had one cto ask me to demo a personal project only to back out after he felt insecure about what I had built - sure could be my opinion).
Another one I had never written a cover letter in my life before and this time I had to write 2000 word essays on why I thought company X was better than Jesus and why and when Id sacrifice my left nut for the honor of being chosen by them.
Sigh I suppose human nature had to come out. But thankfully I did get lucky and met some amazing people who were there when I needed them. My only advice (ok selection bias) is to network like hell. Good roles aren't coming by just applying on LinkedIn (I don't this was ever true but more so now). If you have to send a resume you've already lost is what I am getting reassured of. Hope ymmv.
by linuxftw on 4/11/23, 6:57 PM
Not a lot of equity in the comp packages this time around (real equity anyway, plenty of funny money from startups). I accepted a salary of $200k, 20% annual cash bonus, small signing bonus. My overall comp is lower, but my cash is a touch higher and the stress is a lot less.
My background is Linux, k8s, golang, and python. I also write C/C++ occasionally. Don't really ever touch front end work or databases anymore. I don't have FAANG experience, but I have contributed to some large open source projects here and there. No degree.
by smitty1110 on 4/11/23, 6:29 PM
Everything I've heard suggests there's a lot of decisions that are waiting on financial reporting for the quarter before the C-suites make their hiring decisions. MS is not just laying off, they have frozen internal hiring between groups and even projects inside of groups. AWS is waiting on financials, my contact over there is looking to move back to MITRE because he's worried, and he has high-side access. I know a couple of start ups in the area have had their buyouts put in a holding pattern. Nothing is dire, but the general vibe is "calm before the storm".
by recfab on 4/11/23, 8:10 PM
Lots of recruiter calls. Several phone screens. A handful of post-phone-screen Round 1 interviews, but no Round 2. One company reached out to me, rejected me after round 1, but put me on their marketing email distro list.
I did have a phone screen yesterday that I think went well. (For that position, an internal recruiter reached out because they saw my post in "Ask HN: Who wants to be hired (April 2023)"). I have two more scheduled for tomorrow. That makes this a relatively busy week.
My last job I was at for nearly 10 years, so I can't compare this experience to the last few years, but it certainly _feels_ brutal.
This week, I'm feeling positive, but in general, I've been worried. I have some severance left and some savings (but not as much as I should). I am also the sole income for my family.
by arthurcolle on 4/11/23, 6:24 PM
I would say that your time is probably better spent leveraging your network, and using Linkedin/Work at a Startup/RemoteOK to find better leads, as there is more favorable signal/noise ratio on these more 'intimate' sites (excluding linkedin, but there is still value in Linkedin)
It definitely sucks. Especially when unemployment insurance takes forever (been trying to get a piddly $400 a week from MD where my last employer was located for the last 5 months, and honestly no one there is sympathetic for someone earning 100K+ who now is submitting all the documents and doing everything needed to get unemployment checks)
It's tough out there. If you are really hard up for money, take whatever is available or try to get into consulting. I wish I had better answers, but I'm in the same boat.
by lexarflash8g on 4/11/23, 8:18 PM
Get the call with the recruiter -- bla bla bla - we will submit your profile to hiring manager and typically ends there. Its like they are playing games and intentionally messing with you. Somewhere in the process I fall between the cracks, and its rinse and repeat.
Its time consuming and you basically do free work (take-homes), or even assessments as part of the application. Very morale reducing.
Seems like the jobs in demand are for principals/leads/ or management roles.
A year ago with less experience it was much easier to get final round interviews.
I've cast a wide fishing net, applying to jobs on Linkedin, through Slack channels, and posted on Hackernews. But to be frank, basically it goes nowhere.
I'm using my time to upskill and read books on tech topics, take video boot camps, and sharpen my coding skills. Its hard to stay motivated without an incentive really. Seems like techies are disposable at this moment and requires a huge ego check.
It sort of baffles me -- tech jobs are abundant and I'm not picky --- like trying to work as a game dev at a AAA studio or be a screenwriter in Hollywood.
BS and recruiting hell seem to be the norm now
by Volundr on 4/11/23, 7:57 PM
January and February frankly scared me. Aggressively looking as opposed to my usual passive approach and I was getting nothing back. Just silence. I was refereed to a position I was a perfect fit in terms of background for by a previous colleague, and got no reply. They asking internally weren't able to find out anything either. No one's been hired and the listing is still up.
March things finally started gaining some traction and I was finally able to land a new position. I actually had two offers, one I frankly didn't want and was feeling like I'd have to do anyway given I had no other leads, and a couple days later one I was pretty excited about.
So there is hope. I'd say things are visibly improving, but I expect it to suck for awhile. I think I may be a little lucky in that my primary skill-sets are a little niche, so while there are less jobs out there that are a match, it also means I'm competing with 10s (or less) instead of 100s that are a strong match. So for the average Java/.NET/React dev I expect it's harder to stand out.
One thing I'd note since you mentioned Apple/Facebook, I ended up taking a ~25% pay-cut with this search, and I wasn't making anything like a FAANG salary. I don't know what your targetting, but if your providing a range when submitting applications, you might want to research salaries for the company on sites like Glassdoor and consider if you need to set your sights lower.
by troutwine on 4/11/23, 6:11 PM
Reminds me very much of the Great Recession.
I hope things go well for you.
by TradingPlaces on 4/11/23, 9:00 PM
Walmart has 1278 job openings with “software” in the title https://careers.walmart.com/results?q=software&page=1&sort=r...
CVS has 458 https://jobs.cvshealth.com/job-search-results/?keyword=softw...
UnitedHealth has 625 https://careers.unitedhealthgroup.com/job-search-results/?ke...
WSJ just wrote about this https://archive.is/2Ll06
Go down the list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_500
by SassyGrapefruit on 4/11/23, 6:33 PM
As for the other side, I do hiring on my team. We posted a Senior SRE on linkedin and got 30 applicants within a week. That was not our experience 2 months ago(more like 5). Maybe something has changed. I don't know I don't pay too much attention.
by tomashertus on 4/11/23, 6:14 PM
by sph on 4/11/23, 6:45 PM
Personally, this is the worst I have experienced in 16 years, also because I'm in Britain and we have our own sets of issues on top.
I am barely keeping afloat with underpaid Upwork gigs. Contracting work is pretty much dead in UK. Recruiters have not landed me a single interview after connecting with two dozen of them. Not a single one in two months.
by paxys on 4/11/23, 6:35 PM
by gigatexal on 4/11/23, 6:52 PM
I feel as though the jobs are for me to take or the interviews are for me to fail.
Honestly think about it. I do interviews for the company I work for (though I’m a senior data engineer I really like being people facing and meeting folks) and the market here is hungry for talent.
The larger companies might be laying off like their American counterparts but smaller (less aggressively tech focused) firms (like real estate, banking, manufacturing, pharma, etc) are hiring like crazy and so are startups.
Good luck to you!
by akmarinov on 4/11/23, 6:16 PM
Give it some time and investors will demand growth which can no longer come from cutting people, so they'll have to start actually growing their products and will need people for that.
by throwaway384jd on 4/11/23, 7:06 PM
Readers, if you are wondering how to help: please read my résumé before interviews, and ideally, look at my github. I’ve been rejected for roles because I did not mention something in the interview, even though it is clearly on my résumé. Also please take cultural differences into account. I got a rejection because during the architectural interview, I phrased some of questions as “In this case, if X, I would…” instead of asking a direct question. English is not my first language, I did the best I can, it was disappointing to be rejected for that.
by mitnerd on 4/12/23, 8:13 AM
As for compensation differences, the total comp went crazy upwards the last 3 years thanks to the billions of dollars going into a few company that decides to pay 30-50% above market and everyone else need to keep up.
The downside is that the cost structure for many companies ended up to be too high to ever have a profitable company. It'd be great to get back to the early 2010s... where cash burn is the right level and equity is the upside versus startups are paying cash more than some very profitable companies.
We are actively looking and I read all my DMs on LinkedIn so please take a look here. https://boards.greenhouse.io/getbuilt if your actually have the tech experience we're looking for, send me a DM and I'll make sure you get a phone screen! But please look at the Guiding Principals as well to make sure your values align with it. Everyone company is different make sure it's a great fit from both sides.
Another thing that I do screen people out is too many short stints at companies. Unless your startup when under or some personal emergencies, I look for people that stay at least 3 years at a given company before switching. It takes at least 1 years to learn a domain and be proficient at it. Year 2 or 3 is where you're learning and implementing technologies with deep understanding. By this time you should be at the point to be promoted or get next equity grant. Sometimes it is worth the wait and sometime it's not so definitely understand if people changes company after 3 or 4 years.
by some-guy on 4/11/23, 7:02 PM
by karaterobot on 4/11/23, 6:21 PM
by GOATS- on 4/11/23, 11:56 PM
by 0xDEF on 4/11/23, 7:05 PM
Is it because they are cheaper? Not really, in most of Western Europe these people make the same or more than software developers.
We tech people need to be more assertive and protective of our cake.
Why does the EverybodyShouldLearnToCode™ movement even exist? I don't see lawyers, accountants and business consultants pushing for their cake to become smaller.
by skizm on 4/11/23, 6:51 PM
by granshaw on 4/11/23, 11:49 PM
by burkaygur on 4/11/23, 6:53 PM
https://featuresandlabels.notion.site/Join-us-at-fal-cf36c13...
by alberth on 4/11/23, 6:33 PM
That’s because during COVID, tech had unprecedented hiring rates.
Google, Facebook, etc literally 2x their employee count in just a couple of years. And these are companies already at massive scale with 10s thousands of employees.
How easy it was to find a job over the last few years was not normal.
by oh_sigh on 4/11/23, 6:17 PM
by mkl95 on 4/11/23, 6:44 PM
A local unicorn reached out recently on LinkedIn with what looked like an organic message, so I gave them a chance. The interviewer was stand-offish and bitter. I then checked out their LinkedIn page and they had laid off 10% of their workforce in the previous 6 months.
I am not a big fan of interviewing, but I have noticed a corporatization trend among small companies, where they tell you things like "it's up to the hiring manager" which means they are not actually hiring anybody, or you are making enough money that you are out of their league, etc.
One of the things I miss the most about the 2020-2022 period is how honest those companies used to be, and how smoothly money was flowing even for the average Joe.
by mv4 on 4/11/23, 6:28 PM
by aborsy on 4/11/23, 8:32 PM
It feels like finding employment is getting harder and harder. There is much more specialization required nowadays (so many YOE in exactly the same field and software frameworks), rapidly shifting trends (that can leave out many people who are not lucky working in an area that is in demand), elevated expectations (see the number of the rounds of interviews) and increased competition (more and more people having access to the same jobs due internet).
by Element_ on 4/12/23, 8:03 PM
by kasperni on 4/11/23, 6:37 PM
by naterkane on 4/12/23, 3:10 PM
then i got an idea. in 2008 i created a company where i wanted to work after not being able to find an agency in NYC that i felt had good culture.. so i should do it again. this time, however, there would be a mission… i want to unfuck how hiring is done.
if, as job seekers we can share knowledge of how recruiters and hiring companies behave, we can spare each-other grief and unnecessary pain and suffering when we look for work.
recruiter reviews, by candidates for candidates.
it’s very new, has quirks that i’m working out, and is simply a chrome extension that runs on top of LinkedIn. reviews contribute to a calculated score, and the details of any review are never shared with anybody. job seekers come first, recruiters get held accountable for the reputations they deserve.
https://hirerank.cc give it a swing, let me know what you think.
by whiplash451 on 4/11/23, 6:48 PM
by illusiveman on 4/12/23, 12:36 PM
There is a common theme: they are looking for leadership roles with active contribution and with deep expertise in the tech stack used by the company.
So, where's the issue here? IMO, the market is saturated with generic software engineers, that is, people who can code, who are good at leetcode, but who really don't stand out of the crowd in any particular technology. That's your typical FAANG engineer. And don't get me wrong, there is a lot of talent in FAANG, but most engineers commit to the grinding to join and then just coast through.
And related to that, there is the unrealistic expectations game. As others have mentioned, people in FAANG were living in their own bubble of unreal financial compensations. Now that the bubble exploded, some have unrealistic expectations that decline even high offers just because it's not what they had before.
by stevev on 4/12/23, 3:01 PM
After viewing the comments I see a few things that stand out.
People are mass sending their resumes. I think this shotgun approach doesn’t really work given the state of how many people are submitting resumes. You will get filter out.
The idea is to get you in front of hiring managers.
This is where recruiters come into play. Working with recruiters that has continuously placed candidates at job x is a better approach.
Write cover letters to the hiring manager. Your resume has to be tailored to the role. Write follow up letters showing your interest for the role.
Companies are willing to hire a less experienced engineer over someone with more due to their greater interest in the role.
If you think your experience alone is going to get you the interview or job, think again, FAANG engs are having a tough time securing roles.
You need to make it sound like there’s no other place you would rather work at for the next five years than there. However do this without sounding desperate but with great interest and a desire to contribute and offer something.
In a flourishing or surplus market, I wouldn’t normally do any of these as it’s not required. In the previous market anyone could get in front of managers without much effort.
However we are in dire times where companies are careful who they hire and one has to really stand out to be picked.
Be picky and don’t just chase anything, even if you’re desperate.
Gluck.
by petetheheat on 4/11/23, 8:12 PM
I recently made the jump from FAANG and am very content with the decision.
Feel free to msg with questions.
by ok_dad on 4/11/23, 6:42 PM
by sys_64738 on 4/12/23, 12:09 AM
by nataliamc on 4/12/23, 12:10 PM
by mancerayder on 4/11/23, 6:43 PM
by goddamnyouryan on 4/14/23, 11:14 PM
by yoav on 4/12/23, 12:42 PM
AI is getting people past initial screen and then ghosted and the “right fit” people not even getting looked at.
It’s self fulfilling and will eventually resolve itself when the market picks up and standards are lowered. (Assuming that happens before GPT5.
If you can sit this cycle out for 6+ months and work on your own stuff or take a sabbatical you can help accelerate us out of this period of chaos.
by nick_modeselekt on 4/12/23, 4:13 PM
by nomoretrash on 4/12/23, 1:54 PM
by alien8472 on 4/14/23, 3:24 PM
by jstx1 on 4/11/23, 6:36 PM
by hsuduebc2 on 4/11/23, 7:00 PM
by BWStearns on 4/11/23, 6:26 PM
by b212 on 4/12/23, 1:29 AM
by 0xDEF on 4/11/23, 6:48 PM
Try customizing a few of the applications for the specific position you look to fill.
by whiplash451 on 4/12/23, 11:20 AM
Because many candidates are now readily available without notice period, companies can hire much faster and as a consequence decide to hire more slowly because their hiring budget for H1 is almost entirely spent already.
by echelon on 4/11/23, 6:13 PM
This lull might be a good chance to launch something or find a scrappy team to join.
Hardly advice if your situation demands something more stable. I just wanted to speak to the possibility.
by mathverse on 4/11/23, 6:36 PM
There is a high possibility you are applying to jobs where you are not a good fit (i.e overqualified).
by gicraulo on 4/15/23, 9:44 PM
by 1letterunixname on 4/12/23, 12:12 AM
Government jobs tend to be the safest.
Making less and downsizing is sometimes necessary.
If you have the talent, always be doing something on the side.
by paxys on 4/11/23, 6:38 PM
by zihotki on 4/11/23, 7:40 PM
by dormento on 4/12/23, 1:43 PM
by tennisflyi on 4/11/23, 6:55 PM
by lionkor on 4/11/23, 6:45 PM
by livinglist on 4/11/23, 6:54 PM
by ivanstegic on 4/11/23, 6:31 PM
by 0zemp1c on 4/11/23, 6:32 PM
if the market is lousy, its lousy...even if you get something, the offers could be lowball or inferior positions
no one judged me or questioned this, it seemed sensible to take a time out during a crappy market
not everyone can swing a "sabbatical", but if you can, I doubt anyone will judge you for it
by throwaway5959 on 4/11/23, 6:13 PM