from Hacker News

Compostable fast-food packaging can emit volatile PFAS

by john-titor on 4/2/23, 3:58 PM with 155 comments

  • by agtech_andy on 4/2/23, 5:10 PM

    The reality is that US regulatory agencies have been extremely permissive for many years. Many other nations piggy back on their findings. We need a massive increase in enforcement.

    What we will see with cheaper and more available testing is that PFAS are everywhere. It is hard to find waterways or soils, even in remote areas, that are not contaminated. It is really tragic and the extent of the pollution can make you crazy.

  • by throwaway892238 on 4/2/23, 4:50 PM

    You know, we really don't need this disposable culture. Everyone just expects to get a disposable container everywhere they go (in the West, anyway). But we don't need disposable everything. People can carry their own set of utensils, and even their own food packaging; it's not uncommon for people to bring their own tupperwares to restaurants (wrap it in a decorative cloth to be fancy). Restaurants could also give out more robust packaging that costs more, or take a deposit to encourage returns. Personally, I keep the stronger plastic chinese take-out containers.

    Back in the day, the disposable container was food. You'd get a portable pie (meaning a meat pie, usually) in what was called a "coffin" - basically a bread bowl or pastry shell that was mostly thrown away after you'd eaten the inside of the pie. Summer rolls and spring rolls have their own wrapper. Meat on a stick was pretty common. Rice balls could contain fish or vegetables. Samosas would have vegetable or meat fillings.

  • by janosdebugs on 4/2/23, 5:08 PM

    So, when you order from the average restaurant, you get a meal made of pre-portioned frozen ingredients containing sometimes questionable substances and you also get poisoned by the packaging. And the restaurant industry is complaining. Makes sense. (If you are a German-speaker, ZDFbesseresser is a worthwhile channel to watch. We basically all but stopped going to or ordering from restaurants.)

  • by friend_and_foe on 4/2/23, 9:51 PM

    That's because they were never designed to be enviroentally friendly. They were designed to be able to be marketed as environmentally friendly. Big difference. If someone sees it disintegrate they'll think "good, biodegradable" even if that's not actually what's happening. The manufacturers don't care. They know, most of the people raising the hubbub about it don't take the 5 minutes to understand what theyre screeching about, they don't have to appease the environmentalists, they have to appease the pantywads, the kind of people who don't buy animal tested cosmetics but flush them down the drain all the same.

    Just use paper for Christ's sake and quit it with all these shenanigans. Brown, recycled paper, maybe some wax. And glass for bottles and things. It's all you need.

  • by amluto on 4/2/23, 5:25 PM

    If you believe the leading manufacturer in the US, they phased out PFAS in compostable bowls in 2021:

    https://www.worldcentric.com/leafplus/

    I assume the new coating is some kind of polymerized plant material.

  • by rgrieselhuber on 4/2/23, 4:35 PM

  • by samwillis on 4/2/23, 5:22 PM

    I believe one of the other issues with compostable packaging is when it ends up in landfill, rather than being composted. It breaks down significantly quicker than other packaging in an anaerobic environment resulting in a spike of methane emissions.

    Obviously, many landfills now collect and use the methane, but many don't and it contributes to greenhouse emissions.

    Like many innovations to go green, it's complicated and often hijacked by corporations to sell products.

    Compostable packaging isn't the solution, reusable packaging is!

  • by jacobsimon on 4/2/23, 4:40 PM

    Dumb question but…why do humans keep using toxic chemicals for cooking and storing food? Surely we can find something edible.

  • by justinator on 4/2/23, 4:37 PM

  • by uejfiweun on 4/2/23, 5:07 PM

    Looking at a lot of what you folks posted, it seems like PFAS are in just about everything, and there's no realistic way to avoid them without an absurd amount of effort. And they are unlikely to be regulated soon.

    So realistically, what's going to happen to people? We're all inevitably going to accumulate a bunch of PFAS, so what exactly can I expect for the future of my health?

  • by noreiley on 4/2/23, 5:27 PM

    > Packaging manufacturers typically don’t reveal what’s in their products

    It seems crazy to me that they don't have to disclose this.

    If it's in contact with the food, it will leak into the food and then in our system. We have food ingredients listed on stickers, why not packaging materials?

    I can understand keeping secrets about the manufacturing process in the name of competitive capitalism, but at the end of the day the material ends up in our hands (and mouth), so we can always send it to a lab and get its composition.

    We could skip this whole "let's do studies to analyze what we were eating daily for all this time" if the industry had to give us the list. If they don't know either, have them do the studies before releasing the product.

  • by phoenixreader on 4/2/23, 5:42 PM

    There has been a lot of food packaging toxicity research news lately, for some reason. For example, just two weeks ago, "BPA-like chemical seeps from labels to food" https://www.futurity.org/bisphenol-s-bps-bpa-plastics-chemic...

  • by nayuki on 4/2/23, 4:36 PM

    Speaking as a complete noob here, what are some alternatives to PFAS linings? Wax? Plant-based plastics?

  • by steponlego on 4/2/23, 5:10 PM

    We’ll yeah they have to spray cancer poison on the stuff so it’s water and grease resistant. Wax is way too expensive, especially beeswax which wouldn’t have this issue.

    You ever wonder what the ingredients are in a paper straw? Don’t look it up. You won’t like it.

  • by pacomerh on 4/3/23, 2:44 AM

    Consumer reports has an analysis of several restaurants, it's from 2022 but maybe worth a look, https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/dan...

  • by dbg31415 on 4/2/23, 5:18 PM

    I use these, are these horrible?

    https://www.costco.com/snapware-pyrex-18-piece-glass-food-st...

    What should I use instead?

  • by sizzle on 4/3/23, 1:24 AM

    They need to fine these companies and mandate they disclose the chemicals they are impregnating the fibers with to make it “grease resistant”

  • by carabiner on 4/2/23, 6:27 PM

    Just serve everything in banana leaves at this point.

  • by tingletech on 4/2/23, 4:47 PM

  • by modzu on 4/2/23, 5:50 PM

    if canada banned single use plastic, why doesn't that include fluoropolymers?

    does the legislation have a formal definition for "plastic"?

  • by tectonic on 4/2/23, 4:44 PM

    Just. Stop. Putting. Teflon. On. Everything.

    Figuring out what does and does not have PFAS on it to protect my family is exhausting and infuriating. I’ve emailed with manufacturers, sent stuff to labs; basically, no one seems to know how much materials like this are used on every day products.

  • by blondie9x on 4/2/23, 5:27 PM

    Pick your poison. Micro-plastics or PFAS. All consumption has a trade off. Some are worse than others. Micro-plastics are causing major endocrine system disruption in youth. Testosterone levels and estrogen levels are getting all our of whack and causing gender related diversification issues that will grow exponentially over time with micro-plastic consumption levels increasing.

    I would pick PFAS.