by imalerba on 3/7/23, 11:57 PM with 309 comments
by lchengify on 3/8/23, 2:03 AM
I was a HP customer for decades. I had models going back to perforated paper dot-matrix printers. Finally last year I had a down-and-out fight to get my HP to do a basic task, and I bit the bullet and ordered a Brother at the recommendation of my friend.
My mfc-l3750cdw Brother printer is a bit of a beast, but it does it's job amazingly well. It's 2x the size, weight, and price of my old HP but it's worth every penny for the peace of mind. It prints when I need it to print. It shuts down when it's not printing. It connects to wifi and doesn't try to serve me an ad while doing it. It uses ink logically. And I don't feel like I'm trying to resolve a problem that was effectively solved in 1995.
The hard fact is that printers and copiers as a market has been shrinking (outside of China) for years now [1]. It's gone from a necessity to a niche need, and even then people have kinkos / WeWork / their parents house as a backup.
HP isn't going back, just switch. Save yourself like I did.
[1] https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/co...
by Algemarin on 3/8/23, 2:10 AM
User-hostile features are created by people.
Just once, I would like to see an AMA by someone who was directly involved in creating a user-hostile feature - whether it's locking down printers or any of the countless other examples that come up on a weekly basis. (Being careful to make a throwaway account and obfuscate any particulars, of course).
I would like to know, direct from the horse's mouth (and not from bike-shed bystanders), what goes on in the heads of the people who make these kinds of features.
Do you just treat it as a source of income, with it not meriting any real internal ethical debate? ("Who cares, these are printers, not chemical weapons")
Do you attempt to justify designing the features somehow? ("If people want to use HP printers, they should use HP cartridges")
Really, I just want to understand why other people engage in behaviors which are explicitly designed to inconvenience, if not outright harm, other people. I have my own theories of course, but I really want to hear it from the people involved.
by BiteCode_dev on 3/8/23, 5:56 AM
- In 2005, they had one printer that refused to print if the cartridge was past a certain date, even if full. Several also underestimated the volume of ink in cartridges and told you it was empty when not.
- In 2007, HP refused to honor hardware warranty if you install any other OS on their laptop.
- in 2010, HP refused to provide drivers for the new windows Vista for its old ScanJet scanners (linux worked fine though).
- in 2020 they hardcoded the path to the EFI of their laptop to be windows only.
That's just the examples I could easily google, I remember that HP was having one scandal every 6 months in 2000, and we didn't have twitter back then.
So if a brand has been very publicly misbehaving for 2 decades, how does it still have customers?
Well, Facebook has still a billion users. Microsoft is now considered the father of unicorns and rainbows. Oracle is still making banks, one of my biggest client just migrated to it.
So the so-called cancel culture seems very superficial to me: lots of noise, but very actual consumer behavioral change. The brands can get away with anything and thrive. Maybe they'll get a little bit of heat for a few months on social media, so what?
But the bottom line is: if you are a big company, just do whatever makes you money. You don't need reputation.
by wanderingmind on 3/8/23, 3:10 AM
by ChuckMcM on 3/8/23, 4:14 AM
That said, a really interesting startup would be an open source inkjet printer. (All the necessary patents have expired ones that are current revolve mostly around cartridges or cleaning systems). I suspect it is a kind of niche market as my kids tell me that "nobody prints things, we have it on our phone!" which I kind of understand, but point out you don't need multiple monitors to do code development if you have listing printed out :-).
by neilv on 3/8/23, 6:35 AM
1. be using open source drivers (e.g., one of the CUPS PCL drivers, preferably on Linux or BSD) on all possible clients;
2. isolate the printer from direct network access (e.g., don't connect printer's Ethernet or WiFi, and instead run CUPS on a RasPi, which talks to the printer only via USB); and
3. consider limiting which devices can access your print server (i.e., via routing VLANs and/or authentication/authorization).
This isn't perfect:
* there are still ways that the printer can get firmware changes against your wishes;
* still ways that it can leak information to HP;
* still ways it's vulnerable to attacks by others; and
* might be awkward to explain when a visitor to your home/office needs to print something.
But I decided the headache of isolating the HP printer a bit (especially from HP), was less than the likely headache of trusting HP more.
(Which is kinda sad, since the company previously known as HP was great.)
by rwaksmunski on 3/8/23, 1:52 AM
by userbinator on 3/8/23, 2:42 AM
Who remembers the Epson chip resetters? Those were glorified EEPROM writers and the chips on cartridges back then were simple EEPROMs. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25054177 )
Now, I believe there's nontrivial crypto involved; but just like other attempts at locking them out, expect the aftermarket to already be hard at work cracking this. It's probably legal to do so, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_International,_Inc._v.....
by haylem on 3/8/23, 7:58 AM
I've had and installed only 5 home printers over my entire life (excluding professional printers at works)
One was an already refurbished dinosaur from Xerox. 1 was a canon (would have to look for the model). The other 3 are HP LaserJet 100 Color MFP M175nw.
All 5 have lasted over 10 years, the MFPs being the youngest at 12 years. That Xerox one was still going with after 20, it was just slow. And 1 of the HPs may be replaced for that reason, as apparently waiting 20s for a page is now too long for my family members, which I can't fathom for a single page of paper once in a while.
Not a single technical issue with any of these.
Not a huge test sample, but that makes me wonder:
1/ What do you people do with their printers?
During the most active period, I printed about 2000 pages / year, which was already too much, and was mostly because of the kids when they were younger and when someone I knew had to deal with a lot of paperwork with an administration, and maybe one year when finishing my studies where I printed a crap load of reports.
2/ What's the failure rate on these things??
3/ When did we decide that "over a decade" is an achievement to be noteworthy for any piece of equipment worth a decent amount of money?
EDIT: My only gripe was the disappearance of ChromePrint. That bugged me quite a bit. Unrelated to the printers, though. Those MFPs work fine with HP Print, default print drivers, CUPS, etc... on Windows/Mac/Linux/Android/iOS.
by nawgz on 3/8/23, 1:42 AM
Does the EU have defenses against this kind of behavior? I feel like monopolistic is the wrong word. Creating captive markets?
by acd on 3/8/23, 9:53 AM
The Sherman Antitrust Act would prohibit printer manufacturers from engaging in anti-competitive practices such as locking out third-party printer cartridges. Under the law, monopolistic or anti-competitive practices are illegal and may be subject to government enforcement.
To quote the sherman act "Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal" (Shermanj Antitrust Act, 15 U.S.C.A. § 1).
Sherman anti trust act: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act
https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui...
by saidinesh5 on 3/8/23, 3:58 AM
by nipperkinfeet on 3/8/23, 2:24 AM
by sundvor on 3/8/23, 1:54 AM
I'm on an old Epson Artisan cartridge based printer currently for colour photos, but want to replace it as they are just too painful and expensive. So meanwhile I have a cheap Brother laser printer for my black and white printing, which TBH is great for the occasional use. It's on an ultra low power sleep mode most of the time, and comes to life when it needs to.
by inamberclad on 3/8/23, 2:23 AM
by leetrout on 3/8/23, 1:46 AM
Is it just that unprofitable to even try? Or the hardware too difficult or tricky? Or the driver software?
Seems like there are zero good alternatives for home printing.
HP doing this stuff or making you subscribe to HP+.
Brother offering basically zero support.
Is epson or canon even competitive for a home printer?
by arprocter on 3/8/23, 2:04 AM
https://i.imgur.com/Xp4tElX.png
Apparently some printers can be downgraded via USB
https://lucatnt.com/2022/06/downgrade-hp-pagewide-pro-477dw-...
by mydogmuppet on 3/8/23, 3:07 AM
Got the shock of my life at wifi printer hardware prices. Expensive.
I've an ancient, tank like, Dell 5120cn that I bought new from Noahs Ark or was it eBay in 2005ish? Its lifetime page count has only just exceeded its monthly duty cycle. It will not die. A set of mfg. CMYB toners costs under $100 if purchased carefully. That's once every 3 years or so.
The back up laser is a donkey slow but reliable HP laser jet 2605dn. Solid, dependable. It was donated to me, free with a 1200 page count. The mfg. toner prices are still steep, so I avoid, and go for 3rd party cartridges. A set of CMYB is $60. I've only just put one set in since 2010.
I'll use these lasers till they or I die. Or I forget their lan IP address. Wifi connectivity is for the very rich.
I'm of the opinion that if printer manufacturers in the EU try pulling any 'use only my ink or toner' stunts they'll be facing a very very expensive showdown with Brussels or Strasbourg.
by egberts1 on 3/8/23, 2:08 PM
Somebody needs more consumer money to pay for all that salary (cows). So, of course, they would need to milk that skinny cow even harder while making it look prettier with a lipstick. Even has a leash (software) that is too long and cumbersome to manage.
Never mind how anemic these "cows" look, they're light and still functional even when infested with bloated features that often contract virus and bacteria.
They'll keep on flogging these "cows" until it looks like a "horse", but just plain non-functional, stomach-bloated, back-arched, and ... dead.
These exec team probably knows no soul worth saving and should not be considered an asset for your budding garage company, lest they become available on labor market.
I am an old foggity whose dreams comprise of hardy folks that started these businesses out of their own home garage and a pair of ungrounded outlets.
To my garage-aspired brothers, stick with a Brothers and you can do no wrong as I've slowly replaced all my HPs with Brothers over last 2 decades.
- former faithful but disillusioned 48-year user of Hewlett Packard printers, former then roommate of former Epson device driver developer, and a device driver maintainer of the wonderful Xerox 1200 "laser" since 1987.
https://www.hp.com/us-en/hp-information/executive-team/team....
by Woodi on 3/8/23, 6:17 AM
by Bhilai on 3/8/23, 2:43 PM
by throwawaylinux on 3/8/23, 11:13 AM
Per-page for basic black text is a lot more than you could do with a laser printer but even a very cheap printer costs more than the combined cost of what I'm likely to ever print again. If my prediction is wrong and I find myself printing vast amounts of things I can buy a printer and eat loss of a few bucks. Feels good to have one less "thing" too.
by dghughes on 3/8/23, 11:55 AM
I think the problem as stated in comments is money obviously. But it's the loss of the home market. The "desktop publishing" craze is gone and now it's older people who have printers. That's a big loss of revenue. Printers at home seem to be alien to anyone under the age of 40.
by reflexe on 3/8/23, 6:55 AM
The issue is that there is a cat and mouse game between an handful HP "alternative cartridges" manufacturers and HP. HP is actively trying to detect and block non-HP cartridges while the manufacturers find a way to bypass it.
What probably has happened here is that HP had pushed a SW upgrade that detects non-HP cartridges a bit better. The manufacturers probably already found a way to bypass it and new cartridges will work on this firmware.
by aetherspawn on 3/8/23, 8:35 PM
If that’s the case, is it evil to restrict cartridges to protect the image of your brand? If I was manufacturing enterprise printers, I would probably say no.
With manufacturers taking the absolute cheapest and minimum effort possible to manufacture things, and yet being nearly indistinguishable from the real deal online (think: all the dodgy portable hard drives on Amazon that are either just interfaces to SD cards or just fake), can you blame them?
by jp0d on 3/8/23, 7:04 AM
by eshack94 on 3/8/23, 4:01 AM
by kidgorgeous on 3/8/23, 1:51 AM
by tracker1 on 3/8/23, 3:17 PM
Brother is probably where I'll go for my next device.
by l8rlump on 3/9/23, 8:25 AM
by laurencerowe on 3/8/23, 12:13 PM
I currently have a cheap Dell I bought for $80 years ago. I was able to put in a new off brand toner cartridge recently but the driver only barely works on a modern Mac and I expect it will stop working completely in a major version or two.
by crooked-v on 3/8/23, 3:45 AM
by bigger_inside on 3/8/23, 3:02 PM
by ornornor on 3/8/23, 7:22 AM
Maybe this is only happening to home office type printers and not to enterprise?
by lynx23 on 3/8/23, 6:10 AM
Never ever will I personally buy a HP product again.
by zeruch on 3/8/23, 6:25 AM
by taylodl on 3/8/23, 4:14 PM
by quantum_state on 3/8/23, 4:06 AM
by mettamage on 3/8/23, 6:45 AM
I feel really clueless
by can16358p on 3/8/23, 2:22 AM
by pabs3 on 3/8/23, 4:43 AM
by indigodaddy on 3/8/23, 3:28 AM
by aidenn0 on 3/8/23, 4:55 AM
by funcDropShadow on 3/8/23, 12:12 PM
by 1970-01-01 on 3/8/23, 1:43 PM
by noja on 3/8/23, 10:38 AM
by voytec on 3/8/23, 7:58 AM
by counterpartyrsk on 3/8/23, 6:28 AM
by mnot on 3/8/23, 8:16 AM
by hgsgm on 3/8/23, 1:00 PM
Stop using inkjets.
