from Hacker News

We will not ‘walk out’ of UK, nor comply with any request to bypass encryption

by ghostDancer on 2/28/23, 11:51 AM with 219 comments

• by francis-io on 2/28/23, 1:02 PM

  This was one of the few times I emailed my MP, Peter Gibson. I laid out all the reasons why backdooring encryption was a bad idea.

  I got a response (on very nice thick, embossed paper and green ink) telling me he agrees with me that protecting children online is important and that's why he supports the bill. He clearly didn't read, understand or care what I said.

  Something needs to be done. When only the stupid, ignorant or corrupt are the ones willing to go into politics then we are doomed.

• by TamDenholm on 2/28/23, 12:40 PM

  > If the UK government really wants to follow through with their plans, they need to set up a Great Firewall - just like China - to block their citizens from accessing encrypted services like Tutanota.

  We (the UK) already have a great firewall. Try to access thepiratebay.org or other pirate sites, or other sites that the UK gov deems inappropriate (CP obviously), etc. Its just a case of encroaching that same system just a little further, step by step.

  People only tend to fight back when large sweeping one-off changes come in. If you consistently and repeatedly wear the other side down, you eventually get your way. How many times did the house of commons vote on brexit? How many times did the US congress vote on Kevin McCarthy becoming speaker? Yeah, as long as you just keep on and on about it, you get your way.

• by comice on 2/28/23, 12:53 PM

  Refusing to comply and threatening to walk are just two different approaches to protesting this and it's not clear to me which is the most effective.

  But I think I trust Signal to know the better approach (whichever they ultimately take - they actually said they'd walk "if the alternative meant undermining our privacy commitments".

  I don't think it is practical to just refuse to comply with a government like this - especially if you need to charge money (which Tutanota do) and especially if you're nearby, legally speaking (Are Tutanota in Germany?).

  And given that Signal has "walked" from other authoritarian regimes but people in those countries still have ways to use Signal, I'm still betting on Signal.

• by Yizahi on 2/28/23, 3:53 PM

  Pfft, when did that stopped autocrats from doing whatever they want? /s Here is what will happen - bill will pass, then no politician will say anything about it, or at minimum won't say the word "ban". But mysteriously Tutanota will see connectivity degradation all across UK as a warning shot. Any inquiries will be met with silence or generic non-answers writing which is a profession of all politicians. Then some kind of whitelisting will start, which will include everyone, except rebels like Tutanota, Proton, Signal and others. E.g. no gov. service will accept their domain as non-compliant. There would be a lot of clever barriers invented for this. And at no point Tutanota would be able to claim they are banned because some traces of access will be left deliberately. Journalists won't pick on this topic and neither would common people. Access will die the "natural" way.

• by mwagstaff on 2/28/23, 6:02 PM

  Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see where the bill explicitly recommends backdooring encryption?

  The relevant paragraphs appear to be as follows, but the guidance looks quite vague...

  257. The Government needs to provide more clarity on how providers with encrypted services should comply with the safety duties ahead of the Bill being introduced into Parliament.

  258. We recommend that end-to-end encryption should be identifed as a specifc risk factor in risk profles and risk assessments. Providers should be required to identify and address risks arising from the encrypted nature of their services under the Safety by Design requirements.

  Source: https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/8206/documents...

• by pattyj on 2/28/23, 12:32 PM

  Living in and operating out of Germany must make this stance easier for Tutao GmbH. What options are available to organisations in the UK?

• by Maxburn on 2/28/23, 12:39 PM

  I like the attitude and parallels to similar actors; "he must block access to Tutanota - just like Russia and Iran are already doing."

  But I'm thinking Signal was more along the lines "we don't want to invite litigation".

  Both send the same message.

• by say_it_as_it_is on 2/28/23, 2:13 PM

  Does anyone remember LavaBit? The founder of LavaBit refused to comply when the government demanded Snowden emails. It didn't go well for him.

• by izacus on 2/28/23, 12:50 PM

  I mean... Apple will remove them from AppStore and that will be that. It's not like they have a choice of actually bypassing Apples store control.

• by IanCal on 2/28/23, 1:17 PM

  > the encrypted email service Tutanota, says: "We will not 'walk out' of UK.

  Would they in any way be required to?

  > Email services

  > 1 A user-to-user service is exempt if emails are the only user-generated content (other than identifying content) enabled by the service.

• by Jiro on 2/28/23, 4:46 PM

  They're not going to walk out of a jail cell either.

  When the government bans something, that's not a polite request. It's backed up by men with guns. How they could possibly think they could get away with just not obeying the government is beyond me.

• by pastacacioepepe on 2/28/23, 1:34 PM

  Western "democracies" at work. Constantly criticizing foreign dictatorships only to hypocritically play their same game, just a bit slower.

• by cbeach on 3/1/23, 9:27 PM

  I wonder what connected vehicle manufacturers will do about encryption being compromised in the U.K.?

  I’m nervous at the prospect of my Tesla communicating in (to all intents and purposes) plaintext with the mothership. The API for that car covers sensitive features that would make the car unsafe if compromised

• by FpUser on 2/28/23, 1:20 PM

  >"just like Russia and Iran are already doing."

  Nice. I like it. They have forgotten longer list of countries that are doing or going to the same thing though. I guess not to dilute the impact of the statement.

  I do not condone what UK is going to do of course. Just find the argument fishy.

• by majortennis on 2/28/23, 1:18 PM

  Never heard of Tutanota but I respect the stance

• by RcouF1uZ4gsC on 2/28/23, 12:40 PM

  My guess is the more bravado a company shows, the more they are in bed with the security apparatus and have back doors. No CEO wants jail or crippling fines. The honest ones will leave. The dishonest ones will talk a big game and try to attract more users while secretly backdooring. The security services will complain for effect but actually won’t really punish the company since the more people they can drive to the company, the better for them.

• by r3trohack3r on 2/28/23, 2:17 PM

  I love this approach, reminds me of the approach in Atlas Shrugged: make them show up with guns.

• by kytazo on 2/28/23, 2:54 PM

  In tutanota we trust

• by thr0wnawaytod4y on 2/28/23, 12:34 PM

  Very clickbaity but leads to some good links

• by samjmck on 2/28/23, 12:46 PM

  Weird attempt at bashing Signal.

• by TheRealDunkirk on 2/28/23, 1:05 PM

  I like the part where anyone thinks that western leaders are going to be dissuaded from implementing totalitarian restrictions on civil liberties and freedoms by comparing them to "the bad guys." These people didn't get where they are by listening to popular sentiment or upholding integrity and ethics in modern political liberalism. They got there because they were willing to work with their country's "deep state," and what the deep state wants, the deep state gets.

• by bsaul on 2/28/23, 12:27 PM

  judging with what happened with covid lockdowns i don't think the west is afraid anymore to apply authoritarian measures as long as it's correctly advertised in their mind as "for the people's own good".

  (just like what every dictator ever said all the time as justification)

• by jokethrowaway on 2/28/23, 1:47 PM

  How many more violations of our freedom do we need to fathom before we realise governments are not an efficient way to structure society?

  Every country is just going to drift towards socialism until it collapses, making sure that the bullies with guns can extract as much value out of the population on the way out.

  They will take your money and shelter it in some other country poor enough that they still need to offer freedom to attract capital and business.

  This is not fixable, democracy is a horrible machine that doesn't stop under the disguise of virtue. Your only options is to move to a freer country before it's too late.