by subliminalpanda on 1/23/23, 11:10 PM with 1216 comments
by jacktribe on 1/24/23, 12:31 AM
We've had a few customers baffled by the no-tipping policy, and still insisting that they leave a tip. Some even left cash on the counter or on the table. We had to chase a few of them down to return their money. Also, some customers seem to think that the screen froze at the very end because it didn't ask for a tip.
While it has been strange to see some customer's determination to leave a tip, I think overall it was well received by the great majority of people that just didn't say anything about it and made a mental note that the prices they see on the menu is what they'll actually end up paying.
We will probably need to highlight that we pay a higher wage for baristas & cooks to account for the lack of tips, and give customers an option to donate to a charity if they still wish to part with additional money.
I do believe that the incentive tips provide for employees to "act" friendly to customers can be transferred over into a review/feedback program, which is what we will be testing out. If customers rate their order and interaction with the barista to be satisfactory, a bonus payment will be made to the baristas on shift. Once we introduce this, I'll share the results.
by yafbum on 1/24/23, 5:50 AM
Add to this various "surcharges" and other mandatory fees added for this or that (my favorite: mandatory "resort fees" for hotels - seriously why is that not just rolled into the price of the stay?), and the service industry in the US has a serious price transparency crisis. It is quite literally impossible to predict the final cost of service, so as a rule of thumb I have come to generally expect to be out of pocket about 50% - 80% more than the listed price.
Any other country would call this fraud.
by adam_arthur on 1/23/23, 11:33 PM
Plus many restaurants with placeholder tip icons that start at 25%+
You also don't know what the tip is really going towards in many cases. In the classic restaurant/waitstaff case you can reasonably expect it to go to the workers, in the random knick knack or general goods stores ???
Tipping in general is a system to transfer wealth from the charitable to the uncharitable (high tippers pay more and subsidize the business, low tippers pay less).
I believe in the spirit of tipping rewarding better service, but by and large it doesn't actually function that way. Most tip ~20% on everything outside of extreme circumstances.
Much better for everything to be baked into the price of whatever good or service it is.
by godelski on 1/24/23, 12:06 AM
The followup argument is often "well they are still being under paid." While I can buy this argument, I do not think the solution is tipping. Because if they are underpaid so are non-tipped jobs like the fast food worker, janitor, grocery worker, or movie theater employee. All tipping does is divide these people and reduce the pool for a larger collective to bargain for a higher minimum wage.
I feel we have this collective belief that tipping is bad (it sure confuses my foreign friends, who sometimes get dirty looks because they didn't tip), but once we've effectively created the criteria necessary to abolish it[3], we still maintained the cultural aspect of it: that we __need__ to tip (often thinking we'll get our food spat in if we don't). I've had others get upset with me for these opinions (I do tip btw) but I don't understand how we can think tipping shouldn't exist but continue in this direction. It's also interesting that in early America we thought of tipping as akin to bribery (I still believe this and I think this is common). It also has a history with slavery[4]
[0] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped
[1] Obviously the argument no longer holds outside Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington
[2] When I was a kid (some 20 years ago) 10% was common for a standard tip. Now most places have an 18%/20%/25% option on screens. Some even higher! The second image in the article even shows a 30% tip
[3] I wouldn't completely abolish it, but I'd say it shouldn't be a standard.
[4] https://www.npr.org/2021/03/22/980047710/the-land-of-the-fee
by johnp314 on 1/24/23, 1:03 AM
Many of the comments here have discussed how without tips paying a living wage would compel higher prices. I ask, what's the difference between a higher up-front price on the menu for the item or a lower price with the expectation that at payment you'll pay 20% more? I prefer the simplicity and less pressure of a bill with no space for "tip", that the price you see on the menu is the price you will pay when finished eating.
by exabrial on 1/23/23, 11:22 PM
This last one is going to be to hear, but if you pay your employees below mimimum wage and allow for tips to make up the difference, well.....
Always tip, in cash, direct to the employee.
by eslaught on 1/24/23, 4:20 AM
At a certain level I think this is just dishonesty. They want to raise prices, but they know some people will stop coming, so they try to hide it in extra fees instead. I don't mind tipping per se, but the hidden fees and tip inflation make me think that if this keeps going, we may need to pass some price transparency laws.
by post_break on 1/24/23, 3:44 AM
by hooby on 1/24/23, 10:29 AM
I don't know why here in the west it's common practice to actually not pay employees enough and rely entirely on tips. Without those tips, many job offers in the service industry would not be attractive, as they don't pay enough to make a living. Without tips, many of those positions never could be filled, unless wages were raised.
Of course, if wages were raised, the increased cost would ultimately have to be passed on to the consumer. So instead of paying €9 for your order, and placing a €1 tip - you might end up being billed €10 instead. At the bottom line, on average, this would work out to the consumer paying the same with or without tips, and the worker earning the same, with or without tips.
But with tips, that's just the average - while in actuality, some patrons will tip a lot more than others. And some workers might earn a lot more tips than others.
If you assume that workers are unfriendly by default, you could see this as an incentive to make them behave more friendly in an attempt to earn a tip. If you assume that workers are friendly by default, you could see that as a green-light for them to be unfriendly to those customers who don't tip. Not sure if creating a competitive environment between your workers is a good thing...
What tipping does, is make things more uneven. Some customer will pay more, some customer will pay less, some workers will earn more, some workers will pay less, some patrons will be treated more friendly, other patrons will be treated less friendly. The average stays the same, but the variance increases.
Without tipping, things would be more even. Individual cases would stay closer to the average.
by tkuraku on 1/24/23, 12:09 AM
by floren on 1/24/23, 12:45 AM
Thought: Somebody should cook up an "AR" app that reads a menu and adds 20% tip plus local sales tax to every price. I'm just as guilty as anybody of visiting e.g. European countries and thinking everything's expensive, but that's because the prices on the menu are exactly what you'll pay, not 70% of what you'll actually pay.
Yes I realize I can just do basic mental math, but not everybody can do it, and it'd be kinda neat to point my phone at a menu and see all the prices instantly reflect what I'll actually have to shell out.
by Jedd on 1/24/23, 12:35 AM
I hate tipping. It's an unwanted cognitive intrusion with no upside for me whatsoever. It also reflects a broken (wage / reward) system, and obviously my preference is they fix that.
In Australia I may tip - iff the service is really good. And only at sit-down / eat-in restaurants. Cafes, cabs, ubers, couriers, hotels, etc - these are not tipping places. If I'm tipping at a restaurant, in addition to exceptional service / food, it'll be a) only if I feel there's zero guilt or implied obligation to tip, b) 5-10%, and c) cash (ie. not via the EFT / POS device).
by zuminator on 1/24/23, 9:29 AM
by holistio on 1/24/23, 11:48 AM
If we receive exceptional service, we pay a little extra - usually 10% or less.
Staff doesn't expect to be paid from tips, business owners don't expect their staff to be paid from tips, customers don't have a guilt trip because they feel like if they don't tip generously the staff will be underpaid.
U.S. tipping doesn't make any sense from a European point of view.
Just set the prices of things at a level where you can afford to pay your staff from your revenue.
by plantwallshoe on 1/23/23, 11:45 PM
Full waiter experience (seated, handed menu, food brought to table, plate cleared) gets 20%.
If the level of service is less than that, the percentage starts to go down proportionally.
Counter service is flat-rate $1 per person served.
This is the same every time regardless of quality of service (unless something truly malicious happens, but I’ve never experienced that.)
by AussieWog93 on 1/23/23, 11:46 PM
I suspect enough people, when prompted with these uncomfortable requests, paid it reluctantly then just never came back. At least, I know I've never been back to any business that asked for or expected a tip.
I'm sure this showed up on the metrics as an immediate spike in revenue, followed by a large downturn some months later.
Honestly can't think of a quicker way to ruin your business.
by alwaysanon on 1/24/23, 6:01 AM
I moved to Australia from the US in 2006. I swear that when I left the tip was more like ~15% (as the sales tax where I was was 7.5% and the rule was that you doubled the tax to work it out). Every couple years I'd go back and it would seem to creep up. All of the sudden it was 20% and, then when I was back last year, somebody told me 20% was minimum and 25% was really more expected if the service was good.
The last time I was there I was out with 6 people and the bill was $500 and I watched them tip $150 (and then expect us all to evenly split it). The service was not exceptional - if anything I remember waiting ages to get the second drink and the bill. I am sure that person was working at least 5 tables (likely more) and you'd think at least a couple sittings so they'd be making some quite good money for a night at those kinds of numbers.
I made a bit of a comment about how it felt generous and they said "if you can't afford to tip like this you can't afford to go out to eat in America" - and I remember feeling things had gone way too far. It is a bit of a strange flex?
by rapht on 1/24/23, 11:36 AM
In Europe, laws basically mandate that what you as a customer see on a price tag or price list, is what you ultimately pay.
You don't have to do any guesswork, looking at the fine print, compute anything in your head. You pay the price that is displayed, and there should be no expectation from any one that you pay anything above that.
When I go to a restaurant, I'm not like buying the food on the one hand, and the service on the other hand, and everything that the taxes cover above all that. I'm paying the restaurant for dining, which includes the food, the service, and whatever taxes the restaurant has to pay.
The details are none of my business... and I shouldn't have to do any contorsions to compare prices between restaurants!
by xiphias2 on 1/23/23, 11:52 PM
It is funny how words change meanings depending on which meaning is better for the person who says it.
by plasma_beam on 1/23/23, 11:39 PM
by temporallobe on 1/24/23, 12:27 AM
I was just in Europe and it was refreshing to eat in restaurants and never have to worry about tipping. If a meal was €50, that’s exactly what I paid and not a cent more. Even though prices in many places were more expensive than in the US (also considering the USD to EUR exchange rate), eating out ended up being a lot cheaper than in the US in the end.
by teekert on 1/24/23, 8:18 AM
That said, the "need" for a tip does make the waiter/ress a lot more pro-active and helpful than in my country where waiter/ress's can be cranky even. In the US they introduce themselves ("Hi I'm Jerome, I'm excited to be your waiter today!" Made me smile every time), make sure you are ok, the level of service is pretty high.
We do tip here (Netherlands), but it's more when service was really good. But personnel won't bat an eye when you don't. Of course, we learned from Reservoir Dogs [0] that tipping is basically part of the income in the US. Is that still true? In the Netherlands we generally agree with Mr. Pink, minimum wage is higher here though (I think).
by borroka on 1/24/23, 12:48 AM
Over the past two years, I have greatly reduced the purchase of coffee and the like in coffee shops and the times when I eat outside because I am turned off by the tipping and the murkiness of the final price. When I see $10 as the price of the item I am buying, I expect it to be the final price. Instead, surprise! I have to add taxes, tips, and the cost of the air I breathe.
On the one hand, I don't want to be "culturally inconsiderate" and not tip; on the other hand, I don't have the same bovine acceptance toward money and spending issues that unfortunately many Americans seem to have -- see, for example, health care spending. I have therefore decided not to contribute to something that makes me uncomfortable. I wish many more people would say no.
by kaiwen1 on 1/24/23, 11:32 AM
Tipping has become a burden and nuisance for most Americans. We need a plan of action to remedy this.
by fishtoaster on 1/24/23, 12:12 AM
Instead, I feel like the only ethical option available to me is to preferentially frequent no-tip restaurants. Unfortunately there aren't too many of those and although I hate the tip system, quality of food is usually more important except at the margins.
It seems like the sort of thing where maybe there's a regulatory answer, but I'm hard-pressed to think of one. California already takes the reasonable step of mandating minimum wage before tips, but that doesn't seem to remove the tip expectation.
by jackson1442 on 1/24/23, 12:14 AM
It's built into the price (bonus points if they add sales tax as well), so you just pay what it says on the menu, and the servers stay happy.
Or you can just pay a good hourly wage, but no one really seems interested in making that happen.
by crossroadsguy on 1/24/23, 4:10 AM
> Schenker says it’s hard to sympathize with consumers who are able to afford pricey coffee drinks but complain about tipping.
How will it reflect upon tipper if they in turn judge Mr Schenker for being in this position in the first place?
> Tipping is about making sure the people who are performing that service for you are getting paid what they’re owed
This just sounds ignorant because the comment is pointing to the wrong entity - as in “who owes”. This is barking up the wrong tree. But society has enabled and allowed business establishments to create a situation like this. At the same time this is also entitled — the thought that the tipper is supposed to pay for service provider’s bills above the cost of the item purchased.
This is sad and outrageous. A person is driven to think like this. Is it society, or the culture and tradition? Or the businesses collectively doing this?
> Moore said she believes consumers shouldn’t be asked to tip nearly everywhere they go — and it shouldn’t be something that’s expected of them.
This is what I do. I leave a tip if I feel like. I exclusively do not tip if an establishment points to it, or asks me to tip. I say a simple no and that saying no is difficult but I always say no in this situation.
The last thing I want is this outrageous tipping culture, especially like USA, where I live.
by paxys on 1/24/23, 3:55 AM
by jerryu on 1/23/23, 11:33 PM
by jmugan on 1/24/23, 12:06 AM
by bbarn on 1/24/23, 5:17 AM
This is why tipping still exists in America. Because there are urban restaurant workers, and busy bartenders being tipped absurd prices not because of their stellar service, but because they are lucky enough to work in a place with high prices and the cultural percentage mindset benefits them so much they will fight against a "living wage" because they are making more than that, and most of the time, not reporting it as income.
It's inequality disguised as being the "hard worker" when in reality, the shitty diner selling 8$ meals has servers working just as hard, or harder, than the upscale place selling 50$ meals.
by moomin on 1/24/23, 12:00 AM
by getoffmyyawn on 1/24/23, 11:51 AM
If you think any of the following points are incorrect, please look for a study that reflects this. I'm willing to bet you won't find any.
Studies show that tipping is inherently biased in favor certain races, genders, and phenotypes.
Studies show that tipping is not strongly related to service quality. In fact most people in the USA tip even when they judge the service to be bad.
People in tipping professions are more likely to be living in (or close to) poverty than people in other professions.
Tipping on price makes no sense. A bottle of wine may cost $15 or $1500 but the effort to serve it will be the same.
Expected tipping is a scam to artificially lower menu prices and nothing more.
by michael9k on 1/24/23, 10:27 AM
Actually tipping is making sure that the owner of a café can get away with paying a too low salary to the employee.
So best advice: don't tip! You are keeping alive a system where it is up to you, the customer, to (maybe) ensure the employee is making a decent amount of money. That is flipping the issue of money on the head. This should be a matter between the employee and the business, using a contract, you know, like every other normal business relationship works!
by nwah1 on 1/24/23, 2:37 PM
You use them when you are getting takeout, or when you are at a fast-casual place. If there is waitstaff, then they take your card and you never see a terminal. But tipping is only customary when there is involvement of waitstaff. Complete disconnect.
Printing receipts with a tip line in a circumstance where there is no involvement of waitstaff is also pretty sketchy.
They should just ban it on these terminals and on the receipts. Tip with cash if you want to. Let businesses set fair wages and prices accordingly. End of story.
by xs83 on 1/24/23, 10:24 AM
To be clear - I will tip for exceptional service or if we have been a particularly difficult table (dietary requirements, number of people etc), but its an exception rather than the rule and its rarely more than 10%.
However often in these cases a surcharge is already added or the meal has been altered in such a way as to negate these issues (Set menu only for tables of 5 or more is common).
Asking me to tip for basic service is going to be refused.
by friend_and_foe on 1/24/23, 1:17 AM
I have a set of rules, I will not tip, regardless the social consequences, if a drink was not poured, food was not delivered to my door, my hair wasn't cut, a hostess didn't seat me and a waiter didn't come around and hand me a menu and ask me what I want, or someone didn't roller skate to my car. And then, the tip starts at 15%, it goes up for above and beyond service and goes down for sub par service. Everywhere else I proudly push no.
by saghm on 1/24/23, 7:12 AM
by wiradikusuma on 1/24/23, 4:40 AM
They should complain to their employer. If it doesn't work, to government as policy maker. As mentioned at the end of the article, "If you work for a company, it’s that company’s job to pay you for doing work for them"
by Invictus0 on 1/24/23, 12:02 AM
by jurassic on 1/24/23, 5:00 AM
by cratermoon on 1/23/23, 11:29 PM
by kderbyma on 1/24/23, 12:19 AM
I see no benefit from the tipping, and the staff are not thankful nor do they seem to notice. and in most cases they do not do anything at all to benefit the tips..
by thepasswordis on 1/24/23, 6:15 AM
During the covid pandemic instacart times would go as high as several days, but if we would tip $100 or so, we’d get our delivery within hours.
I like free markets, and I like being able to bribe service workers. In fact, I wish there were more people I could tip.
by gwnywg on 1/24/23, 1:42 PM
I quite often order food through apps like wolt or glovo and always think twice when going through "tip" section. First- the app asks for a tip before I receive service (even though uber eats used to state that tip can be cancelled). But what makes me more curious is if courier knows about tip, or is the tip included in fee collected so higher the fee more couriers are interested to take the call..
I also have local pizza shop, whenever I order pizza there I tip delivery guy even though he does not, in any way, makes me to do so. I do it more eagerly if there is bad traffic outside or bad weather, basically being happy not having to drive/walk to collect the food..
by dcormier on 1/24/23, 3:42 AM
The checkout page asked if I wanted to tip the employees, with buttons for preset percentages, and an option to enter a custom amount.
I considered aborting my order.
by irrational on 1/24/23, 6:40 AM
by andyvesel on 1/24/23, 7:34 AM
by rhplus on 1/24/23, 4:56 AM
So we can say that 15% was more than generous in 1996 according to the NY/LA TV writer set.
by justinpowers on 1/24/23, 12:32 AM
Many of the newer POS systems were first developed with the hospitality industry in mind. In those cases, tipping is on by default. These POS systems have since expanded into retail and convenience stores, leaving tipping on by default. The shop owners have little incentive to turn it off, or may not even know how to turn it off.
Additionally most older POS systems were not operated by the customer and so did not display set percentages. They relied upon manual input based on a signed receipt. So percentage norms were mostly word-of-mouth. Nowadays, with customer-facing POS systems, it’s easier to just provide a percentage button. And the owner or manager or even the lowly register attendant, can adjust as needed. And of course, higher defaults are better for all of them (within reason).
by baron816 on 1/24/23, 4:46 AM
by zupa-hu on 1/24/23, 6:55 AM
by figassis on 1/24/23, 11:43 AM
by conaclos on 1/24/23, 9:43 AM
It is much better to make direct donations to associations.
by alwaysanon on 1/24/23, 6:49 AM
I have gotten used to not having to carry/worry about cash and the idea I need all these $5 notes whenever I stayed in a hotel in the States stressed me out a bit.
Is this a thing?
by musicale on 1/23/23, 11:30 PM
by syngrog66 on 1/24/23, 12:20 AM
Here's my take: I might already be doing charity work or donations elsewhere, and I'm at my limit. And I went to Panera for food and a place to sit a while. If Panera's ownership or rich executives want to donate somewhere as individuals, do that. If they want to make the biz itself donate, do that. If you want to pass this cost on to customers then simply build it into the pricing. But DO NOT hassle each customer and waste everyone's time with cognitive clutter. If anything it feels like a form of intentional guilt-tripping or griefing. What Panera offers isnt unique enough that a person cant go choose an alternate service.
Anyway, not a rant on tippping itself, but a very similar structure. I believe tipping too should just be built into the prices a business charges. Massively simplifies each transaction and reduces griefing and psychological games. (Really, its another case of a more general rule, imo: simplify, simplify, simplify...)
by canibal57 on 1/24/23, 2:08 PM
by samwhiteUK on 1/24/23, 11:03 AM
Shouldn't that be the employer's job? I'm not exaggerating when I say this tipping culture is a major reason why I wouldn't move the US. It's ridiculous.
by kgbcia on 1/24/23, 12:54 PM
by tmnvix on 1/24/23, 12:10 AM
by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on 1/24/23, 12:35 AM
by Pxtl on 1/24/23, 12:23 AM
But now since there's been no formal "end" to the pandemic, it's hard to say when/if you change that.
by dig1 on 1/24/23, 1:10 PM
Seriously? If I have $10 in my pocket and want to buy something good for $10, why I'd choose something cheaper just to leave the tip?
> “Tipping is about making sure the people who are performing that service for you are getting paid what they’re owed,” said Schenker...
This does not make sense to me. If I'm a CEO, manager, or working for Google, Ford, or any company, behind the desk, should I be expected to be tipped for my service? If people are working for below minimum wage and expecting tips to compensate for the difference, they should be negotiating a higher paycheck. Some things in USA do not make sense to me.
by jeffwask on 1/24/23, 1:38 PM
"Is companies not paying a fair and living wage getting out of control?"
by CM30 on 1/24/23, 1:58 PM
But that's never been my experience. Over here in the UK, I almost always leave a tip when eating in a restaurant, as well as when getting food delivered or having a haircut. None of these folks are paid under minimum wage or rely on the tips to survive, they're just offered as a bonus for their service.
And most others I know act the same way. They'll tip those who provide good service almost regardless of the kind of job that's involved.
So is that uncommon or something? Are there really folks here who just... pay exactly what a restaurant charges and no more? Or am I missing something with these whole 'no one tips outside of America' discussions?
by underdeserver on 1/24/23, 8:48 AM
I always consider tips part of the entire price. If dinner is $30 and the customary tip is 20% then the dinner costs $36, not $30. Yes, it's annoying that the price you see is not the price you pay, but then in the US there's tax you're adding anyway.
This makes tipping good: If there's some sort of problem - someone's rude, they took their time, something's wrong with the food and they won't replace it - you can actually just legally pay less.
By the way - 10%, 15%, 20% are easy calculations to do: divide by 10 and multiply. Let's say your order is $35. For 25% halve twice.
10% = 35/10 = $3.5 15% = 35/10 * 1.5 = 3.51.5 = 3.5 + 1.75 = $5.25. 20% = 35/10 2 = $7 25% = 35/2/2 = 17.5/2 = $8.75
It's easy math once you get used to it.
by speby on 1/24/23, 8:09 PM
by biglost on 1/24/23, 3:54 AM
by FrontierPsych on 1/24/23, 8:46 AM
For all the other places like coffee shops, I never pay, I take pleasure in not paying a tip on the digital pad, because don't try to jam me up. I so when there's a tip jar at those places, but now I make it a point never to tip on digital. And when it does happen, I start looking for an alternate location where they don't have that crap. I might not find one this month, or for six months, but I'll be low-level looking for alternatives.
by jl6 on 1/24/23, 9:54 AM
by ugh123 on 1/24/23, 5:00 AM
by blahedo on 1/24/23, 8:20 AM
It is a mind-blowingly terrible system, but until we fix it, "tips" (in the US, in industries that are traditionally tipped) are not a bonus, they're part of the base wage, and if you don't pay them you are absolutely freeloading.
by soupfordummies on 1/24/23, 2:35 AM
Surprisingly, bartenders told me they don’t get the tip at:
An MLB stadium
2 large outdoor LiveNation venues
by jrockway on 1/24/23, 3:25 AM
What sort of mortgage activity involves asking for a tip? The article didn't really go into this, but I'm very curious.
by xwdv on 1/24/23, 4:30 AM
by pronlover723 on 1/24/23, 6:25 AM
On top of that, in SF, prices are off the chart. Went to a bread store. One loaf of bread + 1 canele + 1 coffee + 1 sandwich, $47. Got chinese dumplings. 3 people 3 plates of dumplings and 3 side dishes, $135 (with tip). That same thing would have been < $30 in Singapore, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Taipei. Even Japan
by photochemsyn on 1/24/23, 4:00 AM
This is good for the business as it encourages the server to provide good service (as long at they clearly understand the importance of the return customer), and also rewards them when the business gets really busy (the result of continually providing good service & good products).
It does eliminate the ability of the customer to play the role of generous or stingy aristocrat, but if they don't like it, they can just not come back.
by eweise on 1/24/23, 12:32 AM
by DragonL80 on 1/24/23, 6:48 PM
by encryptluks2 on 1/24/23, 11:17 AM
by iansinnott on 1/24/23, 4:29 AM
I recently visited Australia and realized that each transaction at a cafe/restaurant was very quick, perhaps an entire 10x quicker than an equivalent transaction in the US. You just tap your card and go.
Transaction time at cafes can compound against people waiting in line as well, especially if the customer wants to tip but the default on-screen amount is too high.
Would be curious to know how much time is collectively spent on these minor transaction decisions in countries with tips. I'm sure it's substantial.
by akomtu on 1/24/23, 12:47 AM
by jhoechtl on 1/24/23, 6:16 AM
If you don't tip its because you were not satisfied with the service. Sure, recipients expect it and will look at you in dismay if you don't.
In countries like Italy or spain it's not common at all.
I tip more of late as unfortunately the US habit of earning less than being able to make a living became the rule and so service personell is dependent on the extra cash.
by vbezhenar on 1/24/23, 11:11 AM
And if the service is bad, I'll require to fix it or decline to pay at all.
I guess that cultural thing.
by dav_Oz on 1/24/23, 2:45 PM
From a non-US/middle European perspective[0]: the US-tipping system is weird[1] to say the least and easily exploitable.
Combine those two and yeah, "service" gets ugly on both sides.
I can understand why so many are upset in their experience about their respective situations (especially in the US) and trying to think about solutions to counter the "exploitation"/"inefficiency" in this new context. But it is also easy to get caught up by the dynamics at the ground exerted by the pressure from above (macroeconomics).
Historically, the issue of "tipping" seems to erupt in times of hard economical/societal challenges. Like US-Prohibition 1919 or my favorite example during German industrialization in the late 19th century:
>More generally, tipping, is a morally fraught issue in the history of hospitality and public education in Germany (more accurately, nationalen Pädagogik, or national pedagogy), going back to the nineteenth century. The jurist Ihering (more commonly referred to as Rudolf von Jhering, with a "J") argued that tipping encourages vices like begging, greed, false or feigned friendship, vanity, and hedonism among service personnel. He wanted service people to be penalized for receiving tips, and employers to pay enough that tipping would not be necessary. The controversy about tipping continues.[2]
Interestingly through this moral/social debate in late 19th century Germany, "tipping"/"Trinkgeld" didn't vanish (intention of Jhering) but people became more aware of the social situation and a balance has arisen out of it.
[0]https://switzerlandtimes.ch/lifestyle/the-impact-of-credit-c...
[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity
[2]Touwal, Amital: Anthropological Study of Hospitality (2016): The Innkeeper and the Guest, p.70
by jFriedensreich on 1/24/23, 12:40 PM
by spratzt on 1/24/23, 10:22 AM
In the pricing section of the brochure, there was an item described, completely un-ironically, as “compulsory gratuities”.
by revlolz on 1/24/23, 5:24 PM
We need to get rid of tipping all together.
by maxehmookau on 1/24/23, 10:55 AM
With the poor USD/GBP exchange rate, a $20 item on the menu would often cost me £25 or even more after tipping
From what I can see, tipping exists to subsidise awful wages so someone's ability to make a living and pay their bills exists solely on how well someone else perceives their customer service skills. As a brit, that's just wild to me.
by aksss on 1/24/23, 3:15 AM
by Night_Thastus on 1/24/23, 5:37 AM
The problem is that the cost of many things has just gone up, a lot. And the US has bent over backwards to ensure no one has to pay the real cost of gasoline.
If customers were really seeing the true cost of every good and service they bought with no manipulation, hidden fees, shrunken products, etc, demand would fall drastically and we'd go into a recession.
by bilalq on 1/24/23, 10:00 AM
by maxehmookau on 1/24/23, 10:58 AM
When they finished, they still asked for a tip. I said no because I paid a premium them for the very reason that I didn't expect that they'd ask for a tip.
by kris_wayton on 1/24/23, 1:45 PM
by cmason on 1/24/23, 3:13 AM
by kylehotchkiss on 1/24/23, 1:13 AM
by freitasm on 1/24/23, 1:16 AM
Yes, this would be what some call "wages".
It's a terrible system. People are not valued by their employers. Employers distance themselves from employees.
by stefap2 on 1/24/23, 9:16 PM
by nojvek on 1/24/23, 3:49 PM
Regardless of how good or poor the service is. 11% to Uncle Sam, 15% to the workers.
It’s become the fabric of life. I really do enjoy when I don’t have to tip. Even though the amount is slightly higher and the 15% is included in base price.
by FpUser on 1/24/23, 12:15 AM
I do give generously to homeless though.
by qwerty456127 on 1/24/23, 11:31 AM
by biglost on 1/24/23, 4:24 AM
by tevon on 1/24/23, 3:12 AM
Additionally they wouldn't care is the % was standard.
From left to right: 15%, 18%, 20%. Leave it there and stop using dark patterns.
by mikhael28 on 1/24/23, 7:38 AM
by sytelus on 1/24/23, 1:29 PM
by rippercushions on 1/24/23, 6:55 AM
Japan is often called out as a tipless wonderland of excellent service, but while you don't tip in restaurants there, it is fairly common to tip doctors!
by Flatcircle on 1/24/23, 3:44 PM
by c3534l on 1/24/23, 5:13 AM
by ampham on 1/24/23, 3:53 PM
by hkarthik on 1/24/23, 12:12 AM
Then they'd be incentivized to show the tip screen by default, and maybe jack up the default amount to 20-25%.
by yieldcrv on 1/24/23, 12:07 AM
The point of sale system can be shamed or regulated, or have codes for the merchant type that dictates whether they have the option of doing a compulsory tipping screen
The payment processor can dictate all or cut them off, payment processor can also be regulated from on high
We can also make viral articles shaming a random shop for their behavior. This is not normal now but we can make it so.
We can realistically address the conflict of interest from service workers wanting more tips that are shaming consumers for not tipping a certain amount. We pretend that because they’re closer to the environment then their thoughts should be more privileged, when it is so convenient to just gamble on getting more tips that its a conflict of interest.
And of course the crazier thought of raising wages, but we should stick to things we can control
by xyzelement on 1/24/23, 4:13 AM
Most of the situations in which you tip are already signs of you not being too frugal. If you are eating in a restaurant, buying coffee out, valeting your car - you are not penny pinching so you can give someone a few extra bucks without breaking your bank.
Of course you have to be culturally sensitive. In the US tipping is expected and appreciated. Other cultures don't expect it and would think it's rude.
by dsfyu404ed on 1/24/23, 12:36 AM
by alxmng on 1/24/23, 2:27 AM
by itwontbelik on 1/24/23, 12:12 PM
* Don't tip at counters
* Don't tip the owner of an establishment
* Tip on the quality of the service, not the quality of the food
* Very low tips should be utilized only in case of very bad service. (A penny tip sends a much bigger message than no tip)
* Round up to the nearest dollar for taxi drivers or Ubers, since they are almost all self-employed, and you don't tip bus drivers do you?
Also, I only tip in cash, and only by putting that cash directly in the hand of one of my servers. Otherwise the manager, who is not supposed to be tipped will likely take a cut.
by ForestCritter on 1/24/23, 4:35 AM
by rr808 on 1/24/23, 3:44 AM
by qikInNdOutReply on 1/24/23, 8:53 AM
by crtified on 1/24/23, 12:10 AM
by dgb23 on 1/24/23, 8:44 AM
by riddleronroof on 1/24/23, 12:52 AM
But credit card receipts show 18% off the price + tax, effectively 20-25%
Most don’t do the math, just pay.
by kylehotchkiss on 1/24/23, 12:49 AM
by refurb on 1/24/23, 12:34 AM
by ilyt on 1/24/23, 5:09 AM
by Ekaros on 1/24/23, 12:24 PM
When will police, customs start to accept and ask for them? For better and more personal service?
Or judges and prosecutors. A hundred given at start would sure improve the vital service they provide?
And before that, why not tip at any financial transaction? Maybe some money when meeting some person buying your SaaS product?
by xena on 1/24/23, 12:06 PM
by mensetmanusman on 1/24/23, 1:49 PM
Can’t wait to see this prompt at the back atm!
by brightlancer on 1/24/23, 1:03 AM
But in other cases, I see the tip line and click Zero. It makes the math easy.
by paulpauper on 1/24/23, 3:48 AM
by cmckn on 1/24/23, 8:19 AM
by amelius on 1/24/23, 12:13 AM
by anothernewdude on 1/24/23, 5:50 AM
by major505 on 1/24/23, 1:33 AM
by jalino23 on 1/24/23, 12:31 AM
by ntr-- on 1/24/23, 12:26 AM
Here in AU we call that "wages".
Having to do quick maths while under social pressure and the threat of having your service quality degraded to make up for an employer or state being unwilling to pay workers enough to live might be called "coercion", but certainly it is externalising costs onto the customer.
by pugworthy on 1/24/23, 12:04 AM
by sershe on 1/24/23, 4:58 AM
by zzzeek on 1/24/23, 12:22 AM
if you are a highly paid technology worker, when you go to service establishments where people are working hourly and are desperate to work 40-50 hour weeks just to pay their rent and feed their kids, you *tip*. *generously*.
the US has an insanely out of control income inequality issue that is very intractible and structural. If you are so fortunate as to find yourself on the winning end of it, as is the case for a vast portion of Hacker News members, yes, (WHILE SAID STRUCTURAL INEQUALITY CONTINUES TO NOT BE SOLVED BY OTHER MEANS), you should be transferring to the members of your local community who are not so fortunate (AND ARE EXPLICITLY ASKING FOR TIPS AND/OR WORKING WHERE TIPPING IS CUSTOMARY) and you should be happy to do it.
hi - not as *a subsitute for raising the mimimum wage*, of course not, of COURSE wages should be raised. of COURSE if everyone were paid fairly in the first place, THAT WOULD BE GREAT. however, at the moment, the federal minimum wage hasn't been raised in 14 YEARS, so FOR THE MOMENT, until said inequality issue can be structurally modified, workers really could use tips. that's why they are asking for them.