from Hacker News

Twitter 2.0: Our continued commitment to the public conversation

by a9ex on 11/30/22, 6:59 PM with 478 comments

by andreyk on 11/30/22, 7:20 PM
TLDR: this post is entirely to calm advertisers, it can be boiled down to "don't worry, we still prioritize brand safety like before".
It does have this gem in it:
"What has changed, however, is our approach to experimentation. As you’ve seen over the past several weeks, Twitter is embracing public testing. We believe that this open and transparent approach to innovation is healthy, as it enables us to move faster and gather user feedback in real-time. We believe that a service of this importance will benefit from feedback at scale, and that there is value in being open about our experiments and what we are learning. We do all of this work with one goal in mind: to improve Twitter for our customers, partners, and the people who use it across the world."
What a weird thing to say... A/B tests are a thing, does anyone buy that experimenting with new things by rolling out new features to all users at once is a good strategy?

by latchkey on 11/30/22, 7:48 PM

  Our Trust & Safety team continues its diligent work to keep the platform safe from hateful conduct, abusive behavior, and any violation of Twitter's rules

Should have prefixed that with "What is left of our trust & safety team..."

by CrypticShift on 11/30/22, 7:18 PM
> What has changed, however, is our approach to experimentation
including I suppose Elon's experimental approach to management.
I hope that in 10 years, we will look back at this twitter 2.0 (= musk's debacle) as the impetus that lead to more widespread adoption of social media 2.0 (= federation)
I already see the snowball effect getting momentum with all this coverage (NPR, NYT...) and big name exits (Apple...)
by Imnimo on 11/30/22, 9:21 PM
>First, none of our policies have changed. Our approach to policy enforcement will rely more heavily on de-amplification of violative content: freedom of speech, but not freedom of reach.
Sounds like a change in policy to me.
by borbulon on 11/30/22, 8:00 PM
> First, none of our policies have changed
uh
https://transparency.twitter.com/en/reports/covid19.html
by WallyFunk on 11/30/22, 7:15 PM
'Town Square' is a misnomer on their part. The town square is the Internet at large and not some single silo'd gatekeepery app.
by felipesoc on 11/30/22, 7:52 PM
> First, none of our policies have changed. Our approach to policy enforcement will rely more heavily on de-amplification of violative content: freedom of speech, but not freedom of reach.
They recently unbanned many controversial accounts based solely on Twitter polls. Who do they expect will believe these statements?
by monero-xmr on 11/30/22, 7:23 PM
First Twitter was going to crash in a week, then it was everyone would flee to Mastodon, now it’s that all the advertisers would leave.
Maybe Twitter really didn’t need 7500 people, and maybe having more voices speak is a good thing (there is always block button), and maybe advertisers won’t flee forever. That seems more likely to me than Twitter imploding.
by VikingCoder on 11/30/22, 7:36 PM
> Our Trust & Safety team... remains strong and well-resourced...
> ...impressions on violative content are down over the past month...
I think both of those claims are demonstrably false.
by listless on 11/30/22, 7:17 PM
It reads like a hostage letter - "Everything is fine, please don't remove our app from your store".
by Macha on 11/30/22, 7:17 PM
> First, none of our policies have changed. Our approach to policy enforcement will rely more heavily on de-amplification of violative content: freedom of speech, but not freedom of reach.
"Nothing has changed, except..."
> Our Trust & Safety team continues its diligent work to keep the platform safe from hateful conduct, abusive behavior, and any violation of Twitter's rules. The team remains strong and well-resourced, and automated detection plays an increasingly important role in eliminating abuse.
It's undeniably less well-resourced than it was a few weeks ago, and people's experience indicate it's clearly less effective as a result.
What a non-statement. I doubt advertisers will react the way Elon hopes they will.
by Communitivity on 11/30/22, 7:29 PM
I do not see how they can say they still prioritize broad safety when there is reportedly only one person left on the child safety team.
by frob on 11/30/22, 7:20 PM
The biggest problem Twitter now has is that I'm not fully convinced someone didn't just pay $8 to publish this as Twitter.
by alkonaut on 11/30/22, 8:12 PM
We can only speculate what Twitter 2.0 will be but I suspect Twitter 3.0 will be a very small company trying to emulate Twitter 1.0.
by rcarmo on 11/30/22, 7:30 PM
I thought they had sacked the entirety of the Trust & Safety team. Especially considered I got added to something like 30 spam DM threads over the last week, and that reporting them did exactly nothing.
by tbrownaw on 11/30/22, 7:39 PM
> Our approach to policy enforcement will rely more heavily on de-amplification of violative content: freedom of speech, but not freedom of reach.
Switching from normal bans to something even shadowier than ordinary shadowbans?
by ilyt on 11/30/22, 10:26 PM
> What has changed, however, is our approach to experimentation. As you’ve seen over the past several weeks, Twitter is embracing public testing.
"Everybody calm down, the building is not on fire, this is just a test of our fire suppresion system. After we fired staff handling it. Also due to miscommunication someone filled it with diesel.
by arnvald on 11/30/22, 7:38 PM
Musk's actions since joining Twitter board have been so erratic it's hard to believe a single word in this announcement:
* first joined the board then quit immediately
* made a purchase offer then almost immediately tried to withdraw it
* fired people then tried to rehire some of them
* claimed 20% of Twitter users are bots then let users decide to unban Trump
* announced absolute free speech then got angry when advertisers used their free speech to tell him they don't like how he runs the company
* allowed everyone to get verified checkmark then pulled it
* supported unlimited free speech then started banning people saying parody needs to be marked explicitly, then banned parody accounts anyway
And now they claim the moderation teams are well resourced and able to do their job just as before. How can anyone believe it?
by UncleOxidant on 11/30/22, 10:55 PM
> Our approach to policy enforcement will rely more heavily on de-amplification of violative content: freedom of speech, but not freedom of reach.
This is the only part of the statement that might possibly be referring to the algorithms. I think the worst thing twitter (and FB as well) has done in the past was to use algorithms to boost outrage and thus boost engagement. Are they saying they're going to change how this works? I'm skeptical.
by Arubis on 11/30/22, 7:45 PM
As a reminder to developers and tech workers that are accustomed to the benefits of working in one of the more flexible and well-compensated fields for traditional employment, if Elon succeeds with his management style at Twitter—nay, even if he doesn't terribly and visibly fail—many folks managing large tech organizations and corporations in general will conclude that that management style is acceptable and sufficiently effective.
tl;dr: if Twitter doesn't get seriously hurt over the medium and long term, this entire industry is going to be a lot less fun to work in as management concludes they can put the squeeze on.
by jacooper on 11/30/22, 9:14 PM
These official statements are worthless when Elon decides everything based on a poll on his private account and by his circle of yes-men.
by seydor on 11/30/22, 7:15 PM
Doesnt really say much. I will wait for Twitter 2.1
by NelsonMinar on 11/30/22, 7:29 PM
Isn't this an outright lie? "First, none of our policies have changed." I don't mean just generally.
Specifically, their policy around Covid misinformation changed November 23. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/29/twitter-stops-policing-covid...
by staunch on 11/30/22, 7:47 PM
There's no way to run a platform supported by ads that upholds anything resembling free speech.
The advertising model is Twitter's fatal flaw. It puts the fate of the platform in the hands of a tiny corporate mob that are themselves subject to larger mobs.
If "the mission" was truly driving Twitter, they'd drop all advertising and build enough value that some decent percentage of users would pay for it. In a few years, with a lot of work, I believe they could build a $10+ billion/yr business using paid accounts and features. With zero advertising. Twitter is an incredible "channel" for information, marketing, customer support, etc.
But unless they kick their addiction to ads, it doesn't matter if they do or don't believe in free speech, because their advertisers (customers) most definitely don't and they're in ultimate control.
by yalogin on 11/30/22, 7:54 PM
Nothing new here except that it's not signed Elon, which is a surprise to me. Looks like someone convinced him to put out a sane message out there placating advertisers.
by MentallyRetired on 11/30/22, 9:43 PM
Sorry, but no. I'm currently disgusted with Twitter's new management and their treatment of developers. It's the fediverse for me, thanks.
by O__________O on 11/30/22, 7:48 PM
Twitter ban me few years ago for not providing a phone number for SMS verification and that account is still ban. Literally only used that account to access another website, which I was not ban from and still use via direct login. Later, Twitter was discovered to be illegally using SMS numbers to profile users even though they explicitly stated they were not; they were fined for it. — Yet they have unban accounts for users that literally broke rules and were actual threats to safety of others.
This linked blog post is full of half-truths, if not out right lies — and company is literally run by Elon, who has lied so many times about his plans for Twitter than it’s beyond me why anyone is still using it.
by bastardoperator on 11/30/22, 7:20 PM
Twitter is totalled. There is no recovery or any amount of repair that will convince anyone that the platform is worth consuming or saving.
by GaryNumanVevo on 11/30/22, 7:38 PM
Concerning to say the least: https://www.wired.com/story/twitter-child-sexual-abuse-mater...
by boplicity on 11/30/22, 9:31 PM
If I had the time and resources, I would build a Twitter clone and focus on just getting journalists, editors, reporters, etc on the platform. This is a powerful community that is quite established on Twitter, but I suspect they would be willing to migrate. Maybe something like, Manuscript Wishlist or QueryTracker, but specifically with a Twitter vibe.
by hn2017 on 11/30/22, 7:51 PM
Twitter 2.0 is not going well with advertisers and he knows it. This is a desperate plea. Will only get worse as more controversies arise
https://theintercept.com/2022/11/29/elon-musk-twitter-andy-n...
by MKais on 11/30/22, 9:12 PM
Musk might be feeling the heat, among other things, from the EU's commissioner for internal market.
https://twitter.com/ThierryBreton/status/1598015892457426944
by Aaronstotle on 11/30/22, 7:20 PM
Hard to take this seriously when the CEO keeps peddling right-wing conspiracy theories and calling out advertisers who have reduced their spend due to concerns about the platform.
by Razengan on 12/1/22, 8:02 AM
Maybe online platforms should just stick to how social interactions work in meatspace:
You choose where and with whom you want to converse.
If you're indoors, you converse with your family/coworkers. If you're outdoors, you converse with friends or service providers + some public noise.
Privately, people can talk about whatever they want. If someone starts bothering someone, the "host" of the place can ask them to leave, kick them out, or call the police.
IRC almost figured it out like 900 years ago, but no then the centralized Hutts decided they want to control everything and "mOnEtIzE" all our interactions so now we have proprietary BS each trying to reinvent the damn wheel in its own broken half-baked way.
by Barrin92 on 11/30/22, 9:34 PM
One thing that I don't see talked about a lot is that this approach of experimentation which is effectively Musk conducting twitter polls, de-facto excludes the majority of users on the site.
Surprisingly enough there's almost as many Japanese users as Americans on Twitter, not to mention everyone else, do they also get an input on the style of the public conversation?
Apparently he's having trouble with the EU now as well because he's shuttered the office in Brussels. Is this a global public conversation, a local one, is everyone going to live by one standard, pretty hard to figure that all out if you've reduced the workforce to keeping the servers running.
by liquidify on 11/30/22, 10:06 PM
"Freedom of speech but not freedom of reach". Sounds like tyranny of a different form. I believe that any platform that enjoys protections of the federal government should be required by law to have 100% open moderation policies, regardless of whether it is reach or speech. Those policies should be required to be "legally" oriented and not based on platform preferences. Let the actual police handle policing.
by bertman on 12/1/22, 9:04 AM
>to improve Twitter for our customers, partners, and the people who use it across the world
The order of the list says everything you need to know.
by Apocryphon on 11/30/22, 10:52 PM
For some reason I think of this cheesy watered-down focus-group tested Pepsi portrayal of social consciousness when I see the word "conversation" in corporate PR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9x15lR9VIg
by theCrowing on 11/30/22, 10:23 PM
I don't get it why lie in a PR fluff piece when everyone can see what's going on. Vox ......
by lcnmrn on 11/30/22, 7:26 PM
I recently introduced Subreply 9.0 with super fast, sub 100ms response times. Beat that, Elon!
by malshe on 11/30/22, 9:56 PM
Probably complete OT but is this correct grammatically?
"First, none of our policies have changed."
I think it should read "none of our policies has changed" instead. But I might be wrong as I get confused about this often.
by m-p-3 on 12/1/22, 3:16 AM
> Our Trust & Safety team continues its diligent work to keep the platform safe from hateful conduct, abusive behavior, and any violation of Twitter's rules. The team remains strong and well-resourced, and automated detection plays an increasingly important role in eliminating abuse.
And yet they lock accounts for tweets like "Elon Musk should pay taxes"
by b0sk on 11/30/22, 8:55 PM
This is to appease Tim Cook. He just tweeted a video of him in Apple Campus
by etchalon on 11/30/22, 7:58 PM
I don't know why anyone would take seriously anything Twitter says, beyond acknowledging they said it.
Everything is currently a moving target, and subject to their owner's whims.
by UweSchmidt on 11/30/22, 8:25 PM
I think he'll make it.
Not only does it look like Twitter will survive (if the mass-migration to another platform hasn't happened yet, when will it? If the site runs stable after the initial shock, why would it run less stable later?), it just might make Musk more powerful than we could ever imagine. Contrasting with other social media founders/owners he isn't shy to use the platform as a very personal thing, to actively shape the discussion and to pick and fight fights. The potential power he could potentially wield makes the purchase, as well as possibly running Twitter as a loss, worth it.
by minimaxir on 11/30/22, 7:06 PM
This post reads as an attempt to appease Twitter advertisers similar to Elon Musk's letter about abuse on Twitter before he officially took over, except it comes after Elon publically threatened advertisers and disparaged their largest one (Apple).
by kgarten on 11/30/22, 10:22 PM
Giving Elon's recent tweets about engagement and other metrics ... Sounds more like Twitter 3.0 to me ... Web 3.0 style.
"the line goes up"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g
Last time I logged in on Twitter, I got right extremists in my suggestions to follow. There are tons of right wing trolls on the platform (check #thenoticing hashtag), one cannot follow the protests in China due to pr0n spam. Yet, everything is FINE. We are just experimenting.
by ilkkal on 11/30/22, 10:07 PM
At this point, why care about Twitter?
by ta890134 on 12/1/22, 3:07 PM
I think liberals should take this as an opportunity to do a fact check on themselves. They are mostly right when they say they are loosing political terrain with Musk at Twitter.
I am m the opposite of a liberal, call it whatever you want. The Internet, media and corporate world is mostly always against my views. Guess what: I am still fine and believe it or not, despite two decades of massive liberal propaganda, my anti-liberal feelings are stronger than ever.
So if you are liberal you probably believe your side is the good one and can hold against facts, contradictions and fights. You should not be afraid of loosing some ground. If you are right, the stupid, opposite and wrong ideas of anti-liberals can't win. You are safe.
You seem to be afraid that allowing a bit of opposite speech will hurt your political stands. I would say: trust yourself, trust your beliefs and spread them intelligibly, and mostly, live by them.
by 0xbadcafebee on 11/30/22, 11:27 PM
Remember, Americans: you don't live in a republic, you live in an oligarchy. When "the public conversation" is run by an oligarch, it becomes a bit more embarrassingly obvious.
by whateveracct on 11/30/22, 7:17 PM
So what is different? Are there concrete goals?
by thdespou on 12/3/22, 11:21 AM
Twitter team or Elon himself?
by SilverBirch on 11/30/22, 10:13 PM
People can read and parse this but face facts: This statement is worthless unless it's personally, and credibly, signed by Elon Musk.
by jacobgorm on 11/30/22, 7:33 PM
This podcast episode by Sam Harris finally convinced me to close my Twitter account. Worth a listen https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/304...
by Zigurd on 11/30/22, 7:53 PM
This is Eon's previous claim that "nothing has changed" rehashed. It is an attempt to gaslight advertisers; "Do you believe all the people complaining about Nazis, racists and misogynists that you see with your lying eyes, or do you believe our policy statement?"
by mrkramer on 11/30/22, 9:13 PM
Mastodon FTW
by bobcattz on 12/1/22, 11:10 AM
I miss twitter with all the lefties
by qwertox on 11/30/22, 8:10 PM
I would really like to see a transparent result of the re-allow-Trump-poll. It might as well have been a bunch of bots.
by _hypocrites_ on 11/30/22, 10:36 PM
A lot of the dogpiling here is sensationalism fueled by the media. People have a very short fuse to comment and won’t bother doing research, or consider alternative viewpoints. It’s either left or right wing - and that sort of thing is blatant indoctrination into an incredibly narrow Overton window that did not come from within someone’s mind. It was put there, through constant reinforcement and propaganda.
by summerlight on 11/30/22, 7:24 PM
Meanwhile it's reviving tens of thousands of accounts previously banned for harassment based on a single poll from Elon's fanboy as well as ending covid 19 misinformation policy. Pathetic attempts to appease advertisers, but it's just stacking another layer of distrust.
by alfor on 11/30/22, 9:37 PM
So much hate here about Musk. I am very hopeful about the future of Twitter since Musk bought it.
I can’t wait to see the evidence of corruption of Twitter, but it was already visible to all conservatives.
I think that in a few months it will be already a great success.
by kilroy123 on 11/30/22, 7:27 PM
Let's be honest – Musk doesn't know what the hell he is doing here.
by SV_BubbleTime on 11/30/22, 8:27 PM
All the arrogant and uncited claims in posts like this... I would for once like to see some honesty.
How many of you were saying "It's a private company, it can do what it wants!!" when it was a public company, and now it does what it wants... "It must be destroyed!!".
Some of you have decent points... Others are insufferable arrogant assholes who know everything about everything. I would like someone to just please admit "I'm mad that Musk isn't using Twitter to suppress the people I don't like".