by penetrarthur on 11/5/22, 3:11 PM with 249 comments
Laptops are getting there with the compute power, but the 27" monitors aren't getting any smaller. Meta Quest Pro(which seems to be the top of the line now) has been just released and even tho it is somewhat pricey($1500), it still costs as much as three good 27" monitors.
Does anyone have any useful experience to share on working in a VR headset? Is it comfortable for longer periods of time? How is it on the eyes?
by grogenaut on 11/5/22, 7:56 PM
I tried for about 18 hours each device to work in VR. Many things are not there yet. My vive is attached to a 5 monitor dual GPU beast that drives a central 144hz 4k HDR 43" and 5 2560x144 monitors. The vive couldn't touch the physical setup for comfort or resolution or just non-fussiness. I constantly had to adjust virtual monitors. In real world I just scootch a quarter inch on my rolly cHair. It's like the first time you setup a physical workspace every time you use it for me. Vive gets warm.
The quest 2 is too low resolution and too laggy. Battery too weak. It was a joy to take it off. Quest is more sweaty.
With the quest I worked from a RV for 3 days. It sucked.
What worked better was just 2 pelican cases with monitors and a discounted ups rate. In the RV I just shoved them in the corner and pulled them out when we parked. When I visit my mom or airbnb I just ship them to where I'm going. Was a massive relief. Maybe in a few years.
It's not just pixel density, it's software, weight, latency, fiddlelyness.
by mellosouls on 11/5/22, 3:30 PM
"I Spent Hundreds of Hours Working in VR"
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29978036
and
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28678041
The latter discussing this classic "Working from Orbit" article (below) has been linked before, but it's from a clear fan, which is not necessarily representative. But it demonstrates it works for some - and that's with the Quest 2.
https://medium.com/immersedteam/working-from-orbit-39bf95a6d...
I haven't tried it myself extensively, but personally I think the tech and software is not quite there yet for full comfort and practicality (eg text legibility) - at least on a plug-and-play level - for the average interested user.
by jedberg on 11/5/22, 4:41 PM
There are upgrades that you really need: A better head strap, ideally one with an adjustment knob at the back to easily loosen and tighten the headset. Also one with an extra battery that both gives you longer unplugged time but more importantly balances the headset front to back.
And a better headset/face interface. You can get one that is much softer and thicker, which puts less pressure on the face and moves the screens a few extra mm away. They also have vented interfaces, which help cut down on the problem of getting hot face.
And lastly, you know how all the experts advise that when you're working you stop and take a break to look away from your screens every 20 minutes or so? It's more important in VR to heed that advice. All you have to do is slip off the headset (you got the easy to adjust one that just slides right off, right?), take ten seconds to look at something far away our out the window, and then put it back on and keep working.
If you do all that, there are a lot of great products out that that will give you great virtual monitors and keyboards.
by AndrewOMartin on 11/5/22, 10:48 PM
The experience was flawed but many things worked surprisingly well. I was getting fed up with just having one screen and having four low-resolution screens was really useful for some things. I could have slack on one screen, VSCode in the centre, my calendar or documentation on the left and my personal recreational browser and music Windows on my right (I eventually moved this to the top because otherwise it was covering the corridor where family members walked past and I preferred to see them using pass-through than being completely oblivious to the outside world).
Is it a very small screen for an IDE and is text blurry? Yes both. But text right in front of your head is quite clear. You have to scan your head to read lots, but most of the time a suggestion of the surrounding text is enough to get by. You also have to change your idea of "sharp text" it's better to use something like cool-retro-term or zoomed in browser to get text that's knowingly large and fuzzy.
I wear glasses but have VROptician lenses and a Bobovr headstrap. The batteries would have died before I became uncomfortable.
The most important observation is that I didn't jump back in to VR once the batteries were charged or the next morning, but I'm glad to have a multi monitor option that fits in my cabin luggage, and cost a free hundred pounds, for when I'm doing a task that would be a total pain on one monitor.
by canuckintime on 11/5/22, 6:53 PM
by yummypaint on 11/5/22, 8:55 PM
One thing i didn't anticipate is how hard it is to do the equivalent of alt+tabbing to a reference document or similar and then jumping back to the main program in use in VR. Context switching is important for productivity and probably can't really be done right without remaking the whole desktop environment for vr. I would wait at least 5 years before expecting anything to be viable as a full monitor replacement.
by clnq on 11/5/22, 5:40 PM
I bought the entry level Quest 2 to evaluate the feasibility of this about a year ago. These are some of my insights (that might not apply 100% to Quest Pro):
- The resolution was too poor to comfortably read anything on two displays arranged about the same way as two horizontal 27" monitors side by side. This ultimately killed the whole effort.
- Without good passthrough, using a keyboard and mouse is a bit difficult.
- There is finger tracking, but I found the controllers to be more accurate. So I needed to keep the controllers on my desk.
- There is a bit of motion sickness that either goes away after a few days of use or reduces a bit. For me, I could never get over the motion sickness. But it wasn't very bad after a couple days of use.
- The screen door effect was very noticeable for me on Quest 2.
- It was possible to up the resolution and refresh rate of Quest 2 using developer options on the PC with some third-party software. With that, the headset might become uncomfortably warm to wear.
- The WiFi 6 wireless VR was surprisingly much better than expected. But it will definitely not be a good experience with typical hotel Wifi - not even close.
I was pretty happy to spend about £300 on a Quest 2 to try it for work. I then sold it for about £250. £50 to try this work mode for a few weeks was worth it. I chose not to go with VR for work at the time. I would suggest trying it yourself in some way similar to this. Perhaps not buying it but borrowing someone's VR headset for a bit, or going to one of the VR venues and just seeing how comfortable it is and what kind of resolution you might get?
by WithinReason on 11/5/22, 5:07 PM
by gravenimage on 11/5/22, 5:06 PM
by throwaway413 on 11/5/22, 4:43 PM
I was a complete Meta disbeliever and long time Quest owner, having put a few dozen hours into working in Immersed last year before putting it down and accepting it wasn’t good enough.
Fast forward to last weekend, give it a try with the setup described above instead. Proceeded to do a 9hr shift fully in VR. Went out, got the Pro, and now I am all in. We are there. Give it a shot, you can always return it right?
Also +1 to everything jedberg said in their comment, great advice.
by clolege on 11/5/22, 4:45 PM
I embraced a single-monitor workflow early in my career after experimenting and finding that having multiple monitors often makes me less productive than just switching workspaces with ⌘+tab. Now it's extended to a single-laptop workflow that's given me incredible flexibility to travel and move around the office.
When do people really need multiple monitors? My only guesses are if they're using Windows, or have a really short feedback loop workflow between two apps that are too big/awkward to share a screen? Which, I guess OP could be in both boats.
by TexanFeller on 11/5/22, 8:05 PM
by gotrythis on 11/5/22, 4:45 PM
I setup a login just for working in VR. I get MUCH more done as I'm totally distraction-free, and it's much better for my neck, as I'm looking at the screens in front of me, instead of down at my laptop. Looking down at my laptop for years has become a source of chronic pain, and working in VR removes it.
Setup is a Macbook Air M1, Quest 2, elite strap, and over-the ear headphones. I use Immersed, which is free, and put up a big screen in the middle to work on, with two narrow screens on either side for reference material.
by peteforde on 11/6/22, 6:43 AM
What you're really looking for is the Varjo Aero: https://varjo.com/products/aero/
The Aero has 35PPD, automatic IPD adjustment and incredibly good eye tracking. It is on an entirely different level than the Quest Pro.
It's also significantly more expensive, but it is the only VR headset that I've ever been able to work comfortably in (coding) for long periods. You can use it with a laptop that has a sufficient GPU.
The Quest Pro confuses me because I don't think the perfect customer exists. Anyone who needs it and can afford it is going to be 10x happier with an Aero.
The only thing more expensive [at this part of the market] than an Aero is buying a Quest Pro first.
by ilaksh on 11/5/22, 7:08 PM
It's going to depend 100% on the specific device. General experience is useless. Especially if it's not from a new model.
If you really just care about 2d monitor simulation then check out Nreal.
by Nathanael_M on 11/6/22, 12:25 AM
Something I’ve been thinking about is tooling, though. Like if I had a browser and file storage in an environment with infinitely scalable windows/resolution I could do a lot of my work.
It’s hard to wrap my head around. Like an OS running in an OS. The answer can’t be just a horrific amount of manual labor porting a bunch of open source utilities over to some new VR based OS, right? I need to be able to connect my headset to my computer and use my existing tools in a VR environment. It’s almost like emulation. Unless Microsoft and Apple make VR compatible OS’s?
Step 1: Headset tech that doesn’t require horrific vendor lock-in (looking at you, metabook)
Step 2: Highly interactive, scalable browser (too many apps are Electron for it to be anything else)
I think with those two things I could migrate a lot of my work. Then you’d need to start fleshing it out. Creating your own little space, figuring out the tech to use your other tools in VR, creating VR focused Linux distro’s, self-hosting instances of your little corner of this new universe, giant statues of Neal Stephenson reciting passages from Snow Crash like scripture…
by UGEplex on 11/6/22, 12:50 PM
They're lightweight, look like Sunglasses , and I've used them for productivity and watching vids for hours daily without eye strain.
In fact I've been using them for gaming on my Steam Deck too and its relieved my neck strain from not having to look down while playing.
With something like Samsung DeX on an S-series Samsung phone you can have a desktop environment, but they also just screen mirror USB-C DP Alt Mode compatible devices including some laptops and tablets, or you can use their AR Space for 3 floating (or pinned) windows.
They also work with M1 Apple laptops directly, and iPhones and HDMI devices in general via an adaptor.
Just note their AR Space feature doesn't work with many Exynos based phones, butnit does with some like the s10e and s21.
Example screenshots I took from Samsung DeX while using my Nreal Air's
https://i.postimg.cc/nrx3WLg8/Screenshot-20221025-094752-Poc...
https://i.postimg.cc/pV0WZcGk/Screenshot-20221021-153844-HBO...
by ge96 on 11/5/22, 4:41 PM
I would not use it for productivity because it's a new environment/more distracting than useful. Also turning your head a lot to look at things.
I like my curved ultra wide monitor.
When the physical SimulaOne comes out I'll try it out again that one is not tethered/better quality eye display.
by BaculumMeumEst on 11/6/22, 5:55 AM
Tried it, returned it.
> Is it comfortable for longer periods of time?
No.
> How is it on the eyes?
Strain.
Any extra screen real estate VR gives you if is vastly outweighed by the negatives. It's a sweaty glowing device right in your face that causes significantly more strain than a laptop monitor. It's cool to think about but I think you already know the answer to this. Try it yourself if you'd like.
by ajolly on 11/5/22, 7:09 PM
Also you can build some small but high powered machines. I've got a mini ATX build with a 12900 ks, and a 3090. Fits in a carry-on, way faster than any laptop.
Also if you're spending that long in each location, it might be viable to just buy monitors at your location, especially if you think of it as the cost for enhanced productivity.
I'm in a similar situation so I've tried to build as capable of the travel setup as possible.
You can also throw desktop monitors in a checked bag, I'm usually only bringing one, but you can fit two to three.
It really depends on how frequently you travel, if you're going to the same locations, if you can store stuff there, and how much additional cost are you willing to pay for a better set up.
The luggage shipping services out there can be fairly reasonable, if you don't want to lug that much gear back and forth with you. Do you have a home base that you go back to, or are you jumping between locations? I used to be fully nomadic, I spent a lot of time optimizing.
by yrgulation on 11/5/22, 4:04 PM
by tchock23 on 11/5/22, 4:55 PM
Many seem to be discounting it entirely without qualifying their comments with the headset and tech setup used…
by tomxor on 11/5/22, 10:16 PM
It doesn't really matter which headset you use or what specs they have, they are all way to heavy and uncomfortable to use for work. And I say that as someone who enjoys gaming on them quite a lot.
John Carmack mentioned the concept of VR for work specifically in his latest presentation on the pro2... something he's clearly interested in and believes will eventually happen but in his words were something along the lines of "this is going to need a lot of painful dogfooding before it's useful". Once they are down to the weight of some very chunky sunglasses - then we can start to be a bit more serious about it. It will happen, in the not too distant future, but if you force it right now I believe you will be in for a lot of discomfort and ultimately bail.
by robotburrito on 11/5/22, 8:06 PM
by georgewsinger on 11/5/22, 7:25 PM
For more discussion, here's a list of HN threads on the Simula One: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=simulavr.com. The most recent one discusses a comparison between the Simula One and the Quest Pro (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33318956).
Pros of the Simula One: it offers native VR computing (i.e. you put on the headset, turn it on, and get see an uncapped number of your Linux Desktop apps running in front of you). Compare this to the Questo Pro, which for VR Desktop provides WiFi streamed screens from your laptop (placing latency and bandwidth constraints on what you can do, and capping the number of screens you can use to 5).
Cons of the Simula One: it's still in preorder phase, and has a target ship date of ~Q2 2023. Our small scale makes the cost of the headset pretty high (though to be fair we're putting very premium specs into it).
by jstrieb on 11/5/22, 10:05 PM
I set everything up to interface with my computer using a web browser on the headset, which might not match your use case.
by bilsbie on 11/6/22, 1:55 AM
but what if we changed the nature of programming and could represent it as something we could walk around and change things. Get back to working with our hands.
by chrisfrantz on 11/5/22, 9:07 PM
by fiat_fandango on 11/5/22, 8:35 PM
Zero doubts.
If this becomes any kind of norm for tech work I'm throwing my computer out the window.
by iepathos on 11/6/22, 4:35 AM
by usrbinbash on 11/5/22, 8:46 PM
Lightweight AR headset? I would definitely give this a try.
To specify what I am talking about: If the device is much bigger|bulkier|heavier than thick eyeglasses, I won't use it. If the device relies on controllers (aka. something I have to hold), I won't use it (gloves would be okay as long as they don't prevent me from typing or using a pen and paper).
by cjbprime on 11/5/22, 3:48 PM
by OJFord on 11/5/22, 9:53 PM
Unless you somehow know that wouldn't bother you, I'd recommend trying it first (or sufficiently within return window) before getting too set on the idea.
by pnw on 11/5/22, 9:47 PM
I think we are still quite a few years away from VR being a slam dunk for a virtual workstation, and it's going to require continued investments in optics, material science and display technology. There's a reason Meta is spending billions on this, it's an exceptionally difficult problem.
by nl on 11/5/22, 11:18 PM
I'm not a VR fan at all but I tried it for a few minutes and was impressed. The headset is comfortable and light and the tracking is flawless.
It was the first time I've thought VR might have significant applications outside gaming.
by TurkishPoptart on 11/6/22, 12:29 AM
I've never figured out whether this was a user issue or if this hardware is simply crap. In the end, it makes sense that OSHA guidelines suggest that your monitor should be at least half a meter away from your eyes.
Because of this experience, I'm quite pessimistic about VR as a whole, and the Quest 2 is sitting in its box on my bookshelf. I'd like to sell it or give it away, but that would require me putting it back on and de-linking my Facebook account, and I can't be bothered to do that.
by codex_irl on 11/5/22, 9:38 PM
I would love to try this, they have some of the highest resolutions that I've seen but a little $$$
by tchaffee on 11/5/22, 11:11 PM
Full size mechanical keyboard too, and lots of cables and a power strip. I almost always have extra space and end up adding clothes I don't need just to keep stuff in its place.
Weight is the real consideration you might have to manage. One time I had to remove some items and put them in carry-on to meet a weight restriction. After which I bought a very cheap luggage scale.
by aljungberg on 11/5/22, 4:53 PM
I also found it surprisingly frustrating that I couldn’t see the keyboard. Every time I took my hands off it I had to do this blind search for it and get my fingers back to the right starting position. Symbols I don’t know how to touch type because they are rarely used was also more frustrating than I would have thought.
by xtracto on 11/5/22, 11:07 PM
What has worked for me (staying a couple of months within citiies) is to "buy" good used monitors in local pawn shops and re-pawn (sorry dont know the exact English term) them once I've finished using them. I end up paying around $50 usd or equivalent to "rent" a monitor for a couple of months.
I tried asking local internet cafes to rent me screens, but it is becoming less and less common.
by jayd16 on 11/5/22, 5:19 PM
The color passthrough means you can actually have coffee at your desk among a million small things it adds.
by orbit7 on 11/5/22, 10:56 PM
by me551ah on 11/5/22, 4:58 PM
by chaostheory on 11/5/22, 9:11 PM
The Valve Index is better but the resolution still isn’t there
With HP’s reverb G2, it’s definitely possible since it has a higher resolution at a good price point. You can get used headsets for less than $300. It’s not great for games that require moving around since tracking is horrible, but it’s really great for work and sim games
by debrice on 11/5/22, 8:25 PM
For me it’s a no go. The software is kinda ok, the headset are also kinda ok but heavy. Overall the experience was mediocre at best. I lost velocity for the two weeks I tried using it, it was clunky and often not working and needed just too many hacks.
by samstave on 11/5/22, 10:56 PM
https://www.amazon.com/AOC-I1659FWUX-USB-Powered-Portable-19...
by IceWreck on 11/5/22, 6:48 PM
by jedimastert on 11/5/22, 8:05 PM
by contingencies on 11/6/22, 1:39 AM
by clolege on 11/5/22, 5:26 PM
I would be quite hesitant to use it in public, especially in the office.
by mdp2021 on 11/5/22, 4:18 PM
comfortable reading is around the dozen lines of text.
Surely this tells you that you would go in the opposite direction of the desired one. They are excellent for other applications - as a memex-while-moving, for example. They do not replace a station.
by rspoerri on 11/5/22, 5:13 PM
by i_like_apis on 11/5/22, 9:39 PM
But virtual desktops are cool. The Quest Pro makes it nice because the pass through camera is quite good.
by excalibur on 11/5/22, 11:17 PM
by malux85 on 11/5/22, 4:21 PM
The headset is too clunky and heavy still, after a few hours you get a sore neck and I have trouble with lack of airflow on my skin (where it contacts my face gets sweaty and irritated after long periods)
More importantly: the resolution is too small. Using an IDE to edit text inside VR technically works, but the font size has to be so huge because the resolution inside is so poor, coding becomes an exercise in scrolling and navigation rather than an exercise in problem solving.
I’m the same as you, I like being portable, and when I was a travelling tech nomad for 2 years it meant hauling two monitors in the car everywhere.
One other option that actually worked well was getting a good quality 1080p projector and mounting it on a camera stand, I used this for a bit instead of monitors at the hotels/Airbnbs and it worked well, although that’s just a single 1080p monitor
by chiflando on 11/5/22, 5:08 PM
by spoonjim on 11/6/22, 2:16 AM
by stuckinhell on 11/5/22, 4:08 PM
by zmmmmm on 11/5/22, 9:29 PM
The key thing is that effectively, there has never really been a VR device released with this as its primary purpose until the Quest Pro. So all the complaints of clunky software, lack of comfort, visual clarity, etc are all in part side effects of people repurposing tools that were simply not meant for the job.
I've always been interested in this space and my conclusion with Quest Pro, which I've had for a week or so now, is that its borderline usable for specific tasks. However it's still not quite there for me as a primary working mode. I think about 50% of the issues are software addressable and it will be a big test of Meta to see if they managed to actually address them or not.
The main issues for me are display resolution and refresh rate I think. When looking at black text on white background, it still has a "shimmering" type effect. It's very subtle and not something obvious at first but if I try to work hours in there (like I did yesterday), it eventually affects me. This seems addressable to me but I'm not 100% sure if the approach being taken (compressing the video feed) can solve it completely - we really need something more like RDP where it draws windowing primitives natively in the headset so that there's no "refresh" at all. The resolution would be "ok" if everything else was perfect but literally any other problem makes it an issue.
However, my biggest suggestion here is that this is very personal - both to your own visual / perceptive / comfort context AND what you exactly do. Even within a specific application, "how" you do it matters. Which is all to say, you just need to try this out. I'd guess that prior to Quest Pro something like 5% of people would have found working in VR viable. Quest Pro probably brings it to 20% or so - a huge improvement but nothing like mainstream. The next gen should bring that way up to 50% or so I think - and we'll have line of sight on this, if not actual devices within 6 months - rumors are there will be an announcement from Apple in Jan/Feb (but likely not shipping until June) and then Simula is working hard on their device. If you are in the Apple ecosystem it'd be pretty crazy not to wait until their announcement (I deplore the closed ecosystem that is going to result from this but there's no chance it won't be awesome).
Finally, you'd definitely want to consider the light weight options like Nreal Air [0] if truly all you want is a giant floating monitor or two.
by thedangler on 11/5/22, 11:06 PM
by Sindrome on 11/6/22, 12:33 AM
by bitL on 11/5/22, 11:24 PM
by grepLeigh on 11/6/22, 12:26 AM
by lumost on 11/5/22, 6:38 PM
by lm28469 on 11/5/22, 4:07 PM
Absolutely no
> How is it on the eyes?
Like staring at a tv from 4cm away for extend periods of time
by desting on 11/5/22, 8:23 PM
Personally, I am waiting for eyeball implants.
I heard that Elon Musk is working on something like this, so I might give that a go when it's ready. I look forward to paying hundreds of dollars to restore my vision every time he has a tantrum and shuts off the service on a whim.
