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Ask HN: What Is Happening in the UK?

by m33k44 on 9/29/22, 9:19 AM with 226 comments

With recent news about market melt-down, I was wondering what really has happened? Anyone with the knowledge please ELI5?
  • by hunglee2 on 9/29/22, 10:04 AM

    In simple terms, the Bank of England and UK Gov are pursuing conflicting economic policies, BoE trying to take money out of circulation through hiking up interest rates, whilst UK Gov is putting money into circulation by proposing massive debt funded tax cuts.

    The obvious incoherency of this then led to the markets losing confidence in the UK economy, crashing the value of the pound, which in turn makes the planned UK debt funded tax cut plan even more expensive than it already needed to, leading to even more loss of confidence.

    We are now in cascading crisis, from which there are no good option, only worse and terrible ones.

  • by scrlk on 9/29/22, 10:17 AM

    The Bank of England's announcement that they will restart QE (a.k.a. money printer goes brrr) on a "temporary basis" was driven off the back of UK pension funds facing massive margin calls due to the spike in gilt yields.

    There's a good article in the Financial Times that explains the mechanics behind it ("LDI: the better mousetrap that almost broke the UK"): https://www.ft.com/content/f4a728a5-0179-48bd-b292-f48e30f86... (archive link: https://archive.ph/vRrGk)

    tl;dr from the article:

    "Well, the cruel irony is that pensions needed collateral for margin calls on leveraged trades hedging against big moves in . . . UK government bond yields.

    So pensions sold bonds (among other things) to raise that cash, pushing yields up, making hedging trades even more expensive, and requiring even more collateral.

    If the BoE hadn’t stepped in to arrest the declines, pensions may have defaulted on those contracts, which would have been very bad. That isn’t the same thing as going bust – it’s not like all the investments disappear overnight – but it does risk tying up the pension in a knotty legal fight over settling the default."

  • by gerikson on 9/29/22, 9:51 AM

    The government announced a combination of tax cuts and deficit spending, and the global bond market decided there's a large risk the UK won't be able to service the debt it will be incurring.
  • by pyb on 9/29/22, 9:32 AM

    In a few words, PM Truss's first economic measures indicate that she's ideologically-driven and has no idea what she's doing. Namely, cutting taxes for the rich in hope that maybe some economic boost will "trickle-down" to the middle class and the poor. This idea is utterly discredited in economic circles.

    The UK central bank, the BoE, is forced to take measures to counteract what Truss and her government are doing !

    The market is also strongly reacting against Truss by selling the pound.

  • by JonChesterfield on 9/29/22, 10:07 AM

    Our government announced new economic policies that have been judged extremely harshly by everyone. The public perception of them is also severely negative which increases the risk of the alternative party gaining control next time around.

    I really hoped the new leader would be the one with an economics background instead of the friendly optimist. Navigating out of brexit and covid is difficult and the leader sets the tone for how we're going to approach it.

    The market deciding the UK is financially unsound seems a legitimate response to our strategy of copy the wise ostrich. Hopefully the people who chose Truss have made enough of a loss this week to reconsider their priorities.

  • by neximo64 on 9/29/22, 10:23 AM

    You never go into expansionary fiscal policy during periods of inflation. The UK did that, it wasn't so much about the tax cuts, it was that they weren't matched with spending cuts.

    Came as a surprise, in a nonscheduled budget & was the opposite of what was expected.

    That got the gilts (uk bonds) to drop, and that got the currency shocked as the gilts were force liquidated. I wouldn't read too much into the currency bit, as every other currency is down against the USD, including the euro, yen and aud.

  • by sixhobbits on 9/29/22, 10:11 AM

    If you look at the graphs for GBPUSD and EURUSD on year timeframes they are very similar. I am not an economist but to me it seems like the various Europe crises around energy, war, covid etc have the main effect and the media is just focusing on UK specific politics and monetary policy because it changed recently and gets clicks.
  • by emptyfile on 9/29/22, 10:16 AM

    Having austerity during low rates and fiscal expansion during high rates is a pretty bad idea.

    However, if your currency is NOT the US dollar, then its a catastrophically bad idea.

    In short: Truss and Kwarteng are intellectual lightweights whose economic ideas make for funny reading* but in reality are a recipe for disaster. Their line of delusional thinking can be traced directly to Brexit, when the UK lost their collective minds.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Unchained

  • by bvoq on 9/29/22, 11:14 AM

    What’s really happening: Liz announced to remove the 45% tax bracket for people who earn more than 150K£ a year. This means that roughly 50 billion £ will be missing from the government. That money will have to be printed, decreasing the value of the pound. More pounds -> Less value.
  • by fffobar on 9/29/22, 10:18 AM

    Where is that market meltdown? The FTSE 100 is down a whopping 1% today, and down 3% over the last 5 days. Looks absolutely normal to me.
  • by andy_ppp on 9/29/22, 10:10 AM

    I thought this was quite a good summary from Jonathan Pie, even if it’s meant to be comedy… https://youtu.be/w-V5FVludFk
  • by guilhas on 9/29/22, 1:19 PM

    The banks/markets are in failing mode since 2012, with constant bailing out, quantitative easing. In USA, UE, UK... Causing banks addiction, and inflation

    2020 was record money printing, causing inflation, so Liz Truss set a plan to reform quantitative easing to try reduce inflation, and the markets reacted bad

    The age old question, are banks to big to fail? What will happen to saving, mortgages, pensions etc... if you start restricting bailouts? Maybe some will just take their money to EU where they still have a cushion, in the always win casino

    But no doubt reform is needed

  • by caoilte on 9/29/22, 10:07 AM

    un-costed tax cuts and an open ended promise to pay for the spike in energy prices spooked investors and caused a run on the pound and (worse) a collapse in the value of UK debt. This threatened to cause a run similar to the 2008 US mortgage backed securities crash because a lot of investors (including many if not most UK pension funds) used their UK debt as collatoral for more loans. If the price falls to far too fast they have to sell their UK debt at distressed prices to meet margin calls and this drives the price down further. The Bank of England has stepped in to prop up the market by printing more money (which means more inflation).

    Interest rates are now expected to triple to 7% to cope with this fiscal event and as most UK home owners borrow money on revolving short term loans to buy houses many people are looking at a $1,000-$2,000 / month increase in interest payments and a 20% collapse in the value of property.

    Most major businesses have gone into crisis mode (hiring freeze, paused expansion plans) which will have its own knock on consequences. If we're very very lucky it won't spread to other countries.

  • by thewarrior on 9/29/22, 10:00 AM

    The UK imports large amounts of energy and other things essential to its prosperity. The UK has a current account deficit which means it does not have enough of the dollar to cover for its imports.

    It has solved this problem over the years by borrowing and becoming a haven for investment to cover up the shortfall.

    Now we have a bat shit government that says we need to lower taxes and borrow a boat load of money to tide over the energy crisis. The markets don’t see how this borrowing will improve the UKs ability to earn more dollars (or the govt to raise more taxes).

    In essence the market realizes that the UK is going to repay its loans by printing money.

    Hence the pound tanks in anticipation of it. One way to stop this is to raise interest rates and pull pounds out of circulation but the government is terrified of popping the real estate bubble.

    TL;DR - The pound will keep falling and the UK will lose its social services but don’t take this as investment advice.

  • by Al-Khwarizmi on 9/29/22, 10:21 AM

    Related question: in what metrics is such a market meltdown visible? The FTSE 100 is down like 4% or so in the last two days, and the pound lost 2% to the euro, those don't look like scary figures to me compared to past volatility. I guess I'm looking at the wrong metrics, so what are the relevant ones?
  • by yieldcrv on 9/29/22, 10:18 AM

    In addition to what others said about the Bank of England monetary policy being in mismatch with the UK Goverment's fiscal policy, there was an issue with pension funds.

    Pension funds require new investors to pay off old investors - pensioners - until the pensioner dies, we have a word for that concept but it derails discussion.

    Some large pension funds in the UK had borrowed against their investors capital, specifically for riskier speculation, which is necessary to guarantee the returns to the investors (pensioners).

    The volatility in the currency and specifically UK government bonds (GILTs) caused a collateral call on the pensions, which would have first caused forced selling, a cascading pressure on the bonds and currency, and also eventually bankrupted the pension (which could honestly still happen).

  • by roenxi on 9/29/22, 10:47 AM

    This question is ill-posed to the point where it doesn't have an answer. Every economic crisis people carefully step around the fact that phrases like 'economic crisis' or 'market melt down' don't mean anything and most of the people using the terms don't seem to think too hard about what the problem is.

    Typically these slogans seem to mean that a politically significant number of people are losing their jobs, but simultaneously used as cover to print money and give it to the wealthy. But I don't think that is what is meant right now in the UK.

  • by switch007 on 9/29/22, 7:18 PM

    The Government made it to obvious to anyone who can get out, to get out.

    They're quite obviously doing a smash-and-grab on the country for their remaining time in power.

  • by r721 on 9/29/22, 10:31 AM

    The Economist story:

    >How not to run a country - Liz Truss’s new government may already be dead in the water

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/09/28/how-not-to-run-... (no paywall: https://archive.is/QWtQW)

  • by account-5 on 10/1/22, 8:21 PM

    In short:

    The public after Boris went: "thank the gods that idiot's gone, nothing could be worse!"

    The conservative party: "we really need to lose the next general election! We don't think Boris managed that."

    Truss and Kwarteng holding hands: "hold our beers! LEEROY JEEENKINS!!"

  • by markus_zhang on 9/30/22, 10:37 PM

    Public lost confidence. UK Bond got trashed, more bond needed to be sold because of this (most liquid) and good stocks followed. BoE stepped in to save everyone.
  • by BerislavLopac on 9/29/22, 10:32 AM

    What is really happening is that a group of disaster capitalists, including various "think tanks" and hedge funds, have direct control over the PM and the government, which is putting in place policies that directly benefit them. They have made great profits by extracting the public money in various ways, as well as shorting the sterling; there is no "ideology" involved, it's simply pure short-term greed.

    This has been going on for a while, but even Johnson wasn't as directly controlled by this group. They took the opportunity to get rid of him and put Truss to the PM's position, making sure that she will do exactly as they tell her.

  • by kepler1 on 9/29/22, 10:15 AM

    In the short-term, the factors well described by others above.

    In the longer-term, is it the slow accumulation of a thousand cuts?

    -- Brexit

    -- Stagnating physical output of UK industry (aside from finance + healthcare)?

    -- Aging population

    -- Expensive living costs + recent inflation

    I don't know how much each of these factors has contributed, or if there are other important factors missing above. But for me, having lived there and seen the general situation, the question is, how will the UK renew itself as a country from a long century of gradual decline?

  • by viraptor on 9/29/22, 10:08 AM

    If you're ok with a video format, I'd really recommend the TLDR News UK. (https://www.youtube.com/c/TLDRNews) It's fairly accessible but not dumbed down. The last 4 or so videos relate to the problems since Truss. If you want to dig deeper they also have daily summaries and podcasts diving deeper into specific issues.
  • by icare_1er on 9/29/22, 9:57 AM

    Genuine question: why are markets disapproving of the economics policy decided by a ... right-wing governement ?

    I though markets reacted negatively to socialist governments getting into power, not the opposite.

  • by kypro on 9/29/22, 11:01 AM

    If a government runs a fiscal deficit then to balance their books they need to borrow additional funds from the market.

    If your fiscal plan doesn't make sense market lenders may not be willing to lend to you or will at least expect a higher interest rate to compensate for their risks.

    The Conservative party in the UK has just elected a new PM who has announced a fiscal plan which doesn't add up - tax cuts financed with borrowing.

    Worse still the PM is doing this in an effort to boost growth which only adds to current inflationary pressures at a time where inflation is far too high.

    Given this the market now believes the central bank will need to be much more aggressive in their fight against inflation and raise their base rate much higher.

    In addition to this the market is also sceptical of the governments fiscal policy and is demanding a higher risk-premium to lend money.

    The result is sky rocketing borrowing costs for UK consumers, businesses and the UK government.

    Pension funds are one of the largest holders of government bonds as they're typically seen as very safe investments (especially within developed markets).

    But of course every investment still has risks and when those risks are underestimated it can leave a lot of investors on the wrong side of the trade very quickly.

    As large holders of government bonds many pension funds found themselves in this position and my understanding is that some have been on the verge of blowing up in recent days.

    Obviously were pension funds to blow up on mass this would have all kinds of negative knock-on effects for the economy.

    It would also mean many of these funds would become forced sellers of bonds and this forced selling would have added even more volatility and instability to an already volatile market.

    Basically the UK was at risk of at risk of a GFC style blow-up so to restore stability the BoE was forced to step in yesterday to buy bonds that no one in the market wants to own right now.

    Interestingly today the PM is doubling down on her fiscal policy. But then she has some fairly controversial economic views, including the belief that higher interest rates is a good thing.

    In my opinion she's too naive and ideologically driven to understand what she's doing. At the end of the day the BoE can't make a broken fiscal policy work, they can only buy time.

    If the government doesn't reverse course the UK economy is probably going to implode, but as I say we have a PM so ideologically driven that she may actually see this as a good thing - it's just free-market capitalism cleaning out the weak-hands, etc.

    Although it's probably electoral suicide my guess is the Conservative party will need to step in at some point and force her to back down in one way or another. If they don't it's hard to see the public will forgive them for this anytime soon. Especially considering many vote for the Conservative party because they're seen as the party of fiscal responsibility.

    Either way as a mortgage holder who's probably going to default on their mortgage due to all of this I don't expect anyone to step in and help me =) This is my mistake, not the governments. And I'm just a pleb with a family, not a pension fund.

  • by yuvadam on 9/29/22, 9:58 AM

    Led by the US, the entire world is in a debt spiral, and just like many of the systems that sustain modern civilization, the global economy itself is in various stages of unraveling from its unsustainable path [1]

    [1] - https://lookingglasseducation.com/whats-a-debt-spiral-and-is...

  • by severine on 9/29/22, 10:03 AM

    Truss and Kwarteng are really fast! As emptywheel said, usually it takes conservatives a matter of years to create the financial crisis they must then intervene to fix.
  • by cbeach on 9/29/22, 9:33 AM

    The pound is low against the dollar, as is the Euro low against the dollar.

    The pound dropped in value a few days ago, but the price has recovered since then.

    The media chooses to focus on the drop rather than the recovery, because the drop coincided with a government announcement of some pro-growth economic policies that mainstream pundits disagree with.

    If you speak to people in the U.K. many would agree that paying less tax is a positive thing, especially during a global cost of living crisis. But some people on the Left are angry that the wealthiest are also getting tax cuts.

    What a lot of those people don’t realise is that the wealthiest 1% are paying 28% of income tax receipts - and this percentage has increased over the last decade.

    In my opinion, I’m glad to see government reduce the tax burden on productive workers, as this stifled well-paying jobs, growth and investment.

    I speak from personal experience. Due to the insidious tax policy of withdrawing the personal allowance when income reaches £100K, there is a marginal tax rate of over 60% at that income level. For that reason I chose to quit my job as a software team manager in an investment bank and instead went to work as a developer in a startup.

    I decided there’s no point in working long hours in a responsible job helping other people advance their careers if I keep less than 40p of every pound I earn at that point. I may as well do less responsible work that I enjoy instead.