from Hacker News

The downfall of smart TVs: From promises of seamless viewing to ad tool

by PretzelFisch on 8/22/22, 12:05 PM with 561 comments

  • by xoa on 8/22/22, 12:56 PM

    FWIW, it is still possible to get TVs without this stuff, albeit at a premium. TVs are still made for business usage in areas like conference rooms, wall displays etc. They're often found under labeling like "commercial digital signage" or "business display" or the like, they seem to often try to avoid using "TV" (if being cynical maybe to make them harder for normal people to discover and confuse them if they do). But they're often nice panels aimed at serious running hours, without this sort of junk (which would give enterprise IT conniptions) and can have very useful feature support like 802.1x authentication which so many devices still lack. Players like NEC will even advertise their use of an RPi compute and wink at lack of spyware [0] for some of their products, but lots of major "smart TV" providers also have a commercial lineup.

    I think they're well worth considering, particularly for the HN crowd, granted I suppose for people who truly want built-in netflix or the like without connecting something like a Roku or Apple TV maybe it's less optimal. But even they might change their tunes back to the concept of separate boxes and normal panels if they dislike all the ads and data tracking.

    ----

    0: https://www.sharpnecdisplays.us/products/displays/me501

  • by rendall on 8/22/22, 12:47 PM

    > Some may argue that there's no need to be dramatic and that there's nothing wrong in seeing an occasional ad every now and then.

    Oh, no, I am very dramatic about this. I will go to any lengths not to see advertising. I will entirely forgo any platform that shows me even one ad, especially when I pay them. Amazon Prime video is already pushing it with their preroll previews. The second it's something else I'm canceling and going back to P2P. Fuck 'em.

  • by uptown on 8/22/22, 12:46 PM

    At home, I've never connected my TV to my network. The few firmware updates I've needed to do were applied using a thumb drive, and I use an AppleTV as my interface.

    When I travel, I bring along an AppleTV and plug the HDMI port into their set. This lets me keep the services I subscribe-to and use them with their display. This has worked great until my most-recent rental, which had a RokuTV -- presumably setup on Wifi.

    When content was streaming from my AppleTV, Roku would overlay a panel along the bottom-part of the screen proposing that I can watch what I'm currently watching from a variety of other providers. This must mean that the TV set is analyzing the video or audio signal to fingerprint what the content contained, then matching it against a library of content to feed into its profile of my use.

    This is the first time I've seen something like this. I'd always assumed that if you used the TV's UI and if it was connected to the internet, then you'd probably be subject to their ads and data analysis, but it never crossed my mind that they'd perform the same data-analysis over any signal passing through its silicon.

    Is this commonplace or is Roku the first of what's likely to be many doing the same?

  • by cube00 on 8/22/22, 12:44 PM

    The new Google TV launcher complete with ads on an expensive TV or a Shield is getting a hammering in the ratings, shows how little they care about customer feedback.

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and...

    Bonus points for making the preview images in the store not show the ads you'll see. If any other app tried to mislead users like that they'd be banned from the store.

    Although it's not like we have a choice, they've also disabled the option to change the launcher on the newest Android TV version as well to coincide with adding the ads on the home screen.

    I get we need to have ads to pay for services but come on, the TVs they're doing this to are not your cheap Aldi ones, they're high end Sony Bravias. Most of the ads are even for other paid services like Disney+ and Netflix.

  • by candiddevmike on 8/22/22, 12:26 PM

    Downfall implies a failure or ending, it seems like they're still selling like hotcakes. This is why we need regulation to save us from surveillance, most consumers want cheap and don't understand/care that they're selling their privacy instead.

  • by DethNinja on 8/22/22, 12:26 PM

    There is a much better option for HN crowd:

    Buy a large/modern computer monitor and connect it to your homelab’s media server.

    Literally there is no need for a smart TV so long as you are capable of setting up a small homelab.

  • by buro9 on 8/22/22, 12:23 PM

    Not mentioned: Samba(dot)TV... who are probably THE single most aggressive surveillance company operating in the Smart TV space.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/05/business/media/tv-viewer-...

    And the Pi-Hole list you want is here: https://github.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist

  • by cerol on 8/22/22, 3:58 PM

    Is there an end to the Data Age ®?

    Sometimes I have this interesting thought, that someday, when even the oldest people alive will not know or will not remebered how things worked back then. Then someone, or a group of people, will suddenly rediscover, or reinvent (as we always do throughout history) things that today still exist. Maybe someone will come up with "shops where you are served by real people", or paying for content you watch. Or a "shopping mall, but without cameras" ("but who will be watching me?"). Or a vehicle you can drive yourself.

    I know it's a silly philosophical thought. But what it points to, for me, is that data harvesting works because it trades privacy for convenience, and even if it's too little, there are ways to opt-out (the trivial case being opting out of convenience). But it's a much too thin line to thread.

    People are aware of the massive commercial surveillance. They just don't care. Human society is built upon trust or its lack thereof. When trust can't be established, surveillance arises. It only becomes a moral problem when it is done asymmetrically, and in an unprecedented scale.

    When is too much too much? When your TV starts showing ads, even when unplugged from electricity? When you have to watch an ad to start your EV car (unless you purchase the Quick Start+ package for 9.99/mo)? You can take a break from ads today. That, in a way, ensures that you can consume ads for longer. But industry seems to be moving in the direction of eventually leaving you with no way to opt out. Then, the convenience might not be worth it anymore. That means either a market demand for ad-free products, and a subsequent return to pay-for-content business model, or some sort of social turmoil.

    Or maybe that's their plan to get us to consume less: just stick everything with insane amounts of obnoxious ads, so we won't buy anything anyway.

  • by api on 8/22/22, 1:13 PM

    One thing I fundamentally don't get: all this endless shoehorning of ads into everything is dependent on there being a seemingly unlimited amount of ad revenue on the table.

    Why? Do ads actually work this well if everyone hates them? What about ads shoehorned into marginal spaces and presented in ways that are barely relevant to the material?

    The only ads I EVER click on are relevant ads that come up from a search in which I am looking for something potentially to buy. In media and platforms (software, OSes) I usually associate the presence of ads with low-end crap.

    Am I weird? Are there tons of mindless ad clickers out there who actually buy based on irrelevant ad spam?

    Why are companies so stingy with wages and willing to outsource their core competencies in exchange for small gains but at the same time are willing to piss endless amounts of money away on ads?

  • by Taylor_OD on 8/22/22, 3:59 PM

    I run an hdmi cable from my laptop and have a bluetooth keyboard with a scroll pad on it. My wife doesnt like it. But its so much faster than a "smart tv". My issue isnt even the ads. Its that half of these tvs feel like they are running on low memory because of how slow they are. Add in the streaming apps that crash just often enough to be really annoying...

    I wish it didnt have to be that way.

  • by guidedlight on 8/22/22, 12:46 PM

    The latest Sony TV's that offer Google TV can leverage "Basic Mode" which disables the 'smart' functionality leaving you with a dumb TV with best-in-class picture quality.

    It's perfect to pair to the device of your choice (Roku, Apple TV, Media Server, Xbox, etc).

    https://support.google.com/googletv/answer/10408998?hl=en

  • by afiori on 8/22/22, 12:10 PM

  • by rubyfan on 8/22/22, 1:14 PM

    I have a Samsung smart TV but have never agreed to the EULA or connected it to the internet. Not sure if this is good enough but I never see ads or really anything unexpected, just good old fashioned TV. I do worry though that some other EULA I’ve agreed to might give them the ability to connect the TV through SmartThings or something similar without my permission. Doesn’t this seem crazy to even have to consider?

  • by SergeAx on 8/22/22, 9:05 PM

    I bought a smart LG TV about a month ago. This is my first smart TV, and I was very cautious about it because of "too smart TV" stories. It is OLED and the picture worth every euro I paid for it (and it was quite a few euro, to be honest). I am downloading HDR 4k movies and playing them from USB stick. I also watching YouTube occasionally, casting it from the phone (TV plays it by itself, not receiving a stream from phone, which is great for quality).

    I didn't see any ads yet (including YouTube, because of Premium). What am I doing wrong?

  • by antx on 8/22/22, 12:48 PM

    Another case in point: my TCL series 5 has made 11K (!!!) DNS requests for scribe.logs.roku.com, just last month.

    As a matter of fact, it's now the top-blocked domain in my pi-hole.

    It's a shame Roku won't allow you to at least opt-out of telemetry.

  • by ilitirit on 8/22/22, 1:07 PM

    YouTube's advertising strategy is pushing me to get rid of my SmartTV, or at least find a 3rd Party solution to completely block the ads. I was completely fine with one or two 6 second ads randomly playing before a video, or during a lengthy video. Then they added 14 second ads, which was very annoying, but bearable since it's about the same length as the two short ads.

    But now they're advertising even if I simply open the app. Furthermore, they're "hiding" 14 second ads behind the shorter 6 seconds. I've even seen 41 minute advertising content. I'm guess they're banking on users leaving the app on "autoplay" to dupe advertisers into thinking that people actually consume this trash.

    These days I just cancel every ad out of principle until the video plays. This takes on average 6-7 attempts. But now more often than not I just quit the app completely. So they are depriving their own content creators of views. And then they have the gall to present surveys asking what my advertising experience has been like...

  • by dabeeeenster on 8/22/22, 1:08 PM

    My solution is https://nextdns.io/ with a special TV profile that has basically all adblock lists added to it, and then some.

  • by mark_l_watson on 8/22/22, 2:06 PM

    Last year I gave our smart TV to a friend as a gift and bought a “dumb” TV for $190 from Walmart. It has two inputs: one for an old fashioned antenna lead, and the other is HDMI.

    I plugged an Apple iTV black box into it, and except for a slightly funky remote, it is a fantastic viewing, navigating, and discovery experience. I did give up image quality but I am much happier.

  • by squarefoot on 8/22/22, 2:05 PM

    Signage displays are the solution, that is, those big screens used in malls, airports, stations etc. they're sturdy built and guaranteed to work 18/7 or 24/7, so don't expect to pay them like a shiny but crappy consumer Smart TV. However pay attention before buying since manufacturers started to add Android based crap and "smart" features to them as well. Usually the lack of any networking, both Ethernet and WiFi, on their technical sheet is the indicator they're dumb enough to be worth of trust. This arrangement of course requires an external receiver since they're essentially beefy monitors. They also make almost-dumb TVs for the above markets.

    As for the brands, I'm aware of Swedx.com in the EU and Sceptre.com in the US. Samsung also makes some interesting products employing the Tizen OS (any jailbreaking available?). I don't have any direct experience with any of those however.

  • by Overtonwindow on 8/22/22, 1:03 PM

    I bought my first TV as an adult last year. I’m 44. I barely use it…

    The problem I had with Smart TVs (Samsung then return to get the LG) are their absolutely abysmal system performance. Jerking, stuttering movement, menus that lag, a counterintuitive controllers, and streaming services usurping the experience; I do not want a permanent Disney+ button!

  • by swayvil on 8/22/22, 12:43 PM

    Raspberry PI + OpenElec + dumb tv + Pirate everything

    Not one single filthy obnoxious advertisement. Ever.

    Access to the WHOLE media library.

    Do it today.

  • by grumple on 8/22/22, 1:50 PM

    This is a hyperbolic article that doesn't reflect reality for most people.

    I use my smart tvs for two purposes: 1) to use the native apps for streaming services (and I never get ads except the internal advertising of the apps themselves), and 2) to connect my personal devices (computers, game systems). The native apps are much more convenient than using an external device for my non-techy partner. I stream to another TV from my devices via HDMI and a switch.

    For most "cord-cutters" that use only streaming services, I expect them to have similar ad-free experiences.

  • by tomkaos on 8/22/22, 12:40 PM

    Both my smart tv are not connected to internet, I just use chromecast and my phone for everything since 8 years. I just hope google never break this.

  • by entropicgravity on 8/22/22, 8:54 PM

    I also am not fond of TV's that snoop on everything in my living room and spew out unwanted ads. But recently I had to buy a new TV. Here's my setup.

    The TV is an LG 55" model OLED55C1 (could be a Costco specific model number), very good color and sound. I expect to keep it for ten years or more as I did with my previous LG plasma.

    Next I got an Asus PN51 Ryzen 3, very cute, small and quiet mini computer (had to add an SSD and memory). I loaded the latest Linux Mint onto it and used an HDMI cable to connect it to the TV. The TV was not happy about not being connected to wifi (that's what the PN51 is for) but eventually it succumbed.

    The final piece is a Logitech MX Ergo wireless blue tooth mouse. The result is fabulous all around as a TV and a computer.

    So all in it's about $2k USD which is a lot up front but given the hours of use by our household over ten years it's probably the best value I've bought since my last TV.

  • by asiachick on 8/22/22, 3:18 PM

    I hate this too. I got a top end Sony TV and it was covered in ads. I left it in Basic mode but it's still covered in an ugly ad to please sign up for Google TV

    Then I finally got a PS5 two days ago. It's also covered in ads with no way to turn them off. I might sell it as I don't want to support such crap and there is nothing I absolutely need to play.

    The thing I find most infruiating is that someone else gets to decide what I see every time I use either of them (well the tv works in basic mode tho it's an eye sore)

    Often what's being shown to me is something I find offensive or hate. I hate sports for example. Or it's a TV show I can't stand or a movie with an actor that rubs reminds me of a bad relationship .

    I get there are lots of situations in life where other choose what I see but for some reason my TV's default when turning it on is one too many

  • by s1k3s on 8/22/22, 12:53 PM

    I feel like these anti-consumer practices by BigCorp can open the door for new companies to emerge on the market: build an ad-free tv, ad-free smartphones etc. Or is it just the effect of me living in a bubble while 99.9% of the customers don't care about this?

  • by jaclaz on 8/22/22, 1:06 PM

    Being very bad at any commercial initiatives, most probably I am way off, but I think there could be a market for some "enhanced" versions of those "universal" TV/LVDS boards to replace the internals of new TV's.

    Something loosely along the lines of:

    https://diy.viktak.com/2014/02/giving-new-life-to-lcd-screen...

    I.e. in a perfect world you could be able to buy a (subsidized by ads) "smart TV" and (voiding the warranty) be able to replace the innards with a "dumb" card.

  • by jerrysievert on 8/22/22, 5:10 PM

    "smart" tv's remind me too much of 3d tv's. those were a fad for a while and the only non-3d tv's you could buy were high end retail displays. they are thankfully gone now.

    I wanted a higher quality display than what a retail display could offer me, so I chose a "smart" tv that has oled with an appletv connected. as long as I never hook it up to ethernet or wifi, it acts as a "dumb" display and I can use only the appletv remote.

    I really look forward to good displays being panel and sound only again.

  • by steviedotboston on 8/22/22, 1:49 PM

    BestBuy has plenty of non-smart TVs in their insignia brand

    https://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?_dyncharset=UTF-...

  • by coldcode on 8/22/22, 12:42 PM

    I need a 4K TV since mine is only 2K but the only non smart TV I've found are at Walmart, the Sceptre brand. Does anyone know of any other?

  • by CivBase on 8/22/22, 5:28 PM

    Is there anything holding back an OpenWrt-style project for TVs? I can imagine something like that becoming popular among hacking communities if TV manufacturers ever resort to installing SIM cards.

    For now I just don't connect my TV to the internet and it works just fine. My laptop, an HDMI cord, and a Logitech K400+ makes for a much better experience than any smart TV interface.

  • by vz8 on 8/22/22, 4:25 PM

    Call me crazy, but I think it's only a matter of time before windows in our living spaces will be monitors with overlaid ads. The in-app purchase will be "allowing us" to remove the ads so we can look at the view in peace.

    In the meantime, all my TVs never see the light of WiFi and have ROKU sticks.

  • by MarcScott on 8/22/22, 4:54 PM

    I don't own a smart TV. If I were to buy one, am I forced to connect it to my WiFi before I use it? Can't you just use one without an internet connection?

    My dumb TVs have Chromecasts attached. I know I'm handing my data to Google, but I don't (yet) have to put up with injected commercials.

  • by brightball on 8/22/22, 12:25 PM

    This type of expectation is why I've always gravitated towards Roku sticks.

    They're cheap, really well designed, centrally controlled on your account and you avoid any need to over-invest in specific TV vendors to have the same experience across the board.

    And it can't do anything that the HDMI port can't do.

  • by torh on 8/22/22, 1:47 PM

    An update to my tv changed it from having a clean startup screen to give me ads for shows on network I don't have, and I hate it with passion.

    Ironically they have a button that says I can customize the screen, which means I can add more crap, not take anything away.

  • by julianlam on 8/22/22, 1:32 PM

    My current main television is a Sony Bravia I got right before the explosion of smart TVs. For all that it is "limited", it does all of those things very well.

    I get much more functionality by plugging in a computer than I do by using any smart TV.

  • by madduci on 8/22/22, 6:14 PM

    Don't connect a smart TV to a network, ever. Instead, use a Google TV, Apple TV or a RPi running Kodi (and maybe PiHole?) for a Smart experience without all the bloat.

    It's cheaper to replace the external device than replacing a TV.

  • by dmos62 on 8/22/22, 1:57 PM

    The downfall of smartness: from promise of power to subjugation via data extraction.

  • by theshrike79 on 8/22/22, 7:22 PM

    Step 1: Get an LG WebOS Tv Step 2: Don't connect it to the internet Step 3: Use a separate device for any smart features, Apple TV, Google TV, nVidia Shield Step 4: No profit for ad sellers.

  • by monksy on 8/22/22, 9:48 PM

    It should be noted that Vizos used to not show ads. But now in a firmware update my tv is now forcing you to go to their smartcast input option that shows ads.

    You can't disable that in the settings.

  • by egberts1 on 8/23/22, 12:03 AM

    Never had a smart TV.

    I have gone the computer monitor route for all my TV needs.

    No need for more vulnerable IoTs in my home.

    By denying them Smart TV manufacturers a piece of my mind (viewing habits), I now have a peace of my mind.

  • by gargs on 8/22/22, 2:10 PM

    Unless you use your television solely to experience encryption-free OTA programming, any cable provider or streaming app has the capability to sell your viewership data to third parties.

  • by sergiotapia on 8/22/22, 12:48 PM

    If you have children you have a moral imperative to pirate content and prevent this from infecting their lives.

    Search for a plexshare. $20 for everything, zero ads. Screw these greedy bastards.

  • by whichdan on 8/22/22, 12:50 PM

    I have an LG C1, which is an amazing TV, but even after disabling every single ad-related option, I'll still occasionally get a pop-up ad when the TV turns on.

  • by LoyCgg on 8/22/22, 12:50 PM

    I am planning to migrate from smart tv to just panel + some android tv box. Any suggestions for the box? Needs to be android for some local tv apps to work.

  • by samgranieri on 8/22/22, 6:40 PM

    I’ll never allow a tv in my house to connect to the internet. I just stream everything via my apple TV set top box. Nice separation of concerns.

  • by acd on 8/22/22, 5:34 PM

    Please lets stop calling devices which spy on people "smart".

    Dumb devices are smart for privacy. Smart devices are dumb for privacy.

  • by ilrwbwrkhv on 8/22/22, 2:30 PM

    That's why Sony TVs have always been ahead of the competition and the only ones I ever buy.

  • by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on 8/22/22, 12:39 PM

    I like it. They keep making it easier to read more books!

    "I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book." - Groucho Marx

  • by blueflow on 8/22/22, 12:09 PM

    The URL is borked

    Edit: fixed!

  • by vonwoodson on 8/22/22, 1:01 PM

    tl;dr; disable Automatic Content Recognition (ACR)

    It also doesn’t help that my privacy is always (*ALWAYS*) wrapped in some platform specific jargon.

  • by wizofaus on 8/22/22, 9:28 PM

    So my genuine question - asking if this post (an advertisement for AdGuard) is within HN rules - got flagged. I've since checked the guidelines and while it doesn't explicitly say product placement posts are verboten, they do seem against the spirit of the site ("Please don't use HN primarily for promotion"). But what guideline makes my comment flaggable?