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What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

by mediocregopher on 5/30/22, 3:53 PM with 163 comments

by krisoft on 5/30/22, 4:33 PM
> Moreover, ethylene in the concentrations that cause trances is extremely flammable, and there’s no historical record of any explosions or fires.
That doesn't seem to be true. Herodotus 2.180:
"When the Amphictyons paid three hundred talents to have the temple that now stands at Delphi finished (as that which was formerly there burnt down by accident), it was the Delphians' lot to pay a fourth of the cost." [1]
I'm not a student of the Classics so I can't verify from the original. This source [2] seems to imply that the world choice implies as if the place burnt down on its own.
1: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%...
2: https://erenow.net/ancient/delphi-a-history-of-the-center-of...
by goto11 on 5/30/22, 6:50 PM
The final point about positivism is important. Geeks love naturalistic explanations of mythological ideas, however far fetched. Trolls are really cultural memory of Neanderthals. Dragons are dinosaurs. The witch craze was due to ergot poisoning etc.
If anyone is interested in what actual historians think about such theories, read for example this: https://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2018/06/delphic-oracle.ht... Tl/dr: The oracle speaking cryptic prophetic verses from a trance is a literary construction. So the ethylene theory is a trying to provide a naturalistic explanation for a fiction.
by photochemsyn on 5/30/22, 5:33 PM
Our question is: Why did the Pythia go into a frenzy?
The major theory you hear about this is that the Oracle was ingesting some kind of drug, possibly a psychedelic derived from rye fungi - but who can say with any certainty? Maybe it was just similar to the 'speaking in tounges' religious phenomenon, which has examples from all over the world:
https://www.skeptical-science.com/religion/speaking-in-tongu...
by dr_dshiv on 5/30/22, 7:20 PM
The only picture of the Pythian priestess is a red figure drinking cup from around 430 BC. She sits on a bronze tripod, holds laurel leaves and a bowl or water or wine.
She would, apparently, listen to the rustle of the leaves— scry into the ripples of water — and feel the resonant vibrations of the tripod. All in order to channel the wisdom of the god Apollo.
Sources of randomness to support creative inspiration. Seems plausible.
by pyuser583 on 5/30/22, 9:30 PM
Prophesying was a common function for ancient priests.
The flights of birds, the guts of sacrificial offerings. E All sorts of things.
The prophesies were usually very pragmatic and politically conservative (not edgy).
It’s not hard to do. Many modern magicians do the same thing. Fortune cookies, etc.
It’s not hard to do this, but being intoxicated makes it harder not easier.
by lordnacho on 5/30/22, 8:28 PM
Cynical me thinks the simplest explanation is it was all just a big show they put on. Similar to when my aunt went to a fortune teller who guessed she had six kids. The fortune teller was probably just well informed about the local environment.
If you're running an Oracle business, your customers are already locked in. It's a long pilgrimage to get there, so you've probably got something important to ask about. The sales people will know roughly what kind of relational data is precious to you, and your branding makes Oracle a natural choice, despite what the techies of the time might say (it's expensive! There's a free and open source that we can get high at!). Once they're there, you keep the magic going by offering associated services. Maybe a bit if consulting on what the old lady said. Of course the consulting will always include coming back for more prophesies.
Most of the business is knowing what kinds of things people want to hear, and feeding back a few things you found. After all it's only once a month there's a seance, the rest of the time can be spent hanging around finding out what the customers want.
by murbard2 on 5/30/22, 5:11 PM
This isn't asking the hard question though: how did the oracle see the future?
by Alex3917 on 5/30/22, 4:37 PM
There is a good Religion for Breakfast episode about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IJfmaGs72c
by boxed on 5/30/22, 7:41 PM
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind has a very interesting answer to this question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in...
by heavyset_go on 5/31/22, 12:07 AM
Temporal lobe epilepsy is hypothesized[1][2] to be a contributing factor towards the visions, fits, etc that various prophets throughout history experienced. Something like half of those with temporal lobe epilepsy experience hyperreligiosity or salvation[3] with their condition, along with religious hallucinations, delusions, etc.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_lobe_epilepsy#Effects...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschwind_syndrome#Hyperreligi...
[3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2654983/
by gfody on 5/30/22, 6:42 PM
our minds are perfectly capable of frenzied hallucinations without any external substance, especially one trained specifically for this purpose probably only had to meditate or chant or indulge some trigger for a moment.
by dahlem on 5/30/22, 5:16 PM
I remember the most exciting book on this topic that I read, was the book on Constantin (the great) by Jacob Burkhardt. While maybe being a bit speculative, at least partly, I had the impression of highly plausible puzzle-solving by someone who actually read and understood the ancient sources. You will find a lot of details on questions like this. I find it most recommendable for anyone who is interested in (the making of) politics and religion now and then.
by throwaway5752 on 5/30/22, 5:55 PM
People speak in tongues at church because they are expected to, have seen it before, and they lie about it. It seems that should be the presumption in the case of Delphi, too, rather than a biochemical mechanism or "antipositivism".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaking_in_tongues#Medical_re...
by rapjr9 on 5/30/22, 5:54 PM
Seems like the author is neglecting the possibility of human intervention. The priests and priestesses may have found a way to collect ethylene gas from the stream and released it intentionally at the right time. A trade secret so to speak. Hidden secrets in religion are not uncommon.
by kwatsonafter on 5/30/22, 4:39 PM
I think it's worth noting-- there's some serious work exploring these kinds of things in the ancient world (Temple of Kykeon, Soma of the Rg Veda, Amrta, Cintamani) and it's still an open subject. Terence McKenna theorized that Psilocybin mushrooms might be responsible for, "mystical visions through substance" but as a practicing, "Hindu" (Chaitanya follower) I've come to find that in the case of the mystical substances of ancient India that there's actually a very involved and very profound philosophical tradition(s) surrounding Amrta (Love of Godhead; Bhakti) Soma (Moon Juice for The God of Heaven) and Cintamani (Puranic equivalent of the Philosopher's Stone) that really doesn't have anything to do with, "psychedelic culture" outside of being generally mind expanding.
tl;dr: She was last holy remnant of the age the Hellenic Greeks idealized about-- The Homeric period before book culture and the Sophists. The time when magic and unadulterated heroism ruled the Earth. Think about Tolkien the next time you trip. The magic isn't in a molecule baby, it's in us!
by itronitron on 5/30/22, 7:24 PM
>> Positivist dispositions can lead to the acceptance of claims because they have a scientific form, not because they are grounded in robust evidence and sound argument.
Interesting that is a form of hallucination itself :)
by zasdffaa on 5/31/22, 8:22 AM
"Originally this was a young virgin, but after trouble with kidnappings..."
Jesus. That's a grim insight into the culture of the time, though perhaps it shouldn't have been given Greek legends.
by noasaservice on 5/30/22, 8:32 PM
I know that magic is poo-pooed and all, but, have you considered that answer as well? Or perhaps they weren't hallucinations, and instead divinations. Calling what the Oracle of Delphi had "hallucinations" puts a bad spin on it from the onset.
Or lets not get hung up with the word "magic". Lets call it a 5th type of energy. Mechanical detection don't work, but a number of humans can feel it. Hard to measure for sure. Some people are more connected to that energy than others. But again, being human-centric at this time makes verification hard/impossible.
What I would adore is a theorem to connect that energy to the 4 other types of energy (EM, strong, weak, gravity). And then, we can start scientifically describing all of those "weird" human issues of stuff we just shouldn't know (I'm thinking of: past life recollections, feeling someone staring at you, parental intuitions that something's wrong with a child, etc).
by badrabbit on 5/31/22, 7:12 AM
Why is OP so sure it was a hallucination? Could be fraud. Or not.
by sfvisser on 5/30/22, 4:32 PM
Language shaping the way you think always feels off to me. Most languages are pretty much universal and unbiased and are capable of expressing an infinite amount of concepts. As easily as their negations, subtle variations, contextual dependencies, nuances, etc.
by UberFly on 5/31/22, 3:24 AM
The Cult of Kosmos of course, until Kassandra did away with those scheming manipulators. Good riddance. ;)
by mef on 5/30/22, 10:33 PM
In this comment section: a hundred people either missing the point, proving the point, or both!
by kingkawn on 5/30/22, 5:26 PM
The voice of the Gods
by benibela on 5/30/22, 7:58 PM
Too much pressure?
by OnlyMortal on 5/30/22, 6:53 PM
Fumes. This has been what is assumed for years.
by misja111 on 5/31/22, 7:18 AM
Tl;Dr; we don't know
by kogus on 5/30/22, 4:14 PM
TL;DR: We have no idea if they were real, and if they were what caused them, and it's ok to be unsure and inconclusive sometimes.
by durpleDrank on 5/30/22, 9:07 PM
I read a long time ago in a book that it was from the steam/vapor of the pit that they would hang out around. I forget what substance was floating out of it but it made them "high".