by a_brawling_boo on 1/12/22, 5:06 PM with 145 comments
1) Microsoft dev stack is really a dead-end, any new startups or even large corporations starting new initiatives are more and more are moving away from any kind of MSF tech or Azure cloud development, and 2) no developer really wants to work with MSF tech.
I have lived in the Microsoft world my entire career, although MSF is increasingly open source/polyglot. Also, I spent a couple of years doing node.js, react, salesforce dev and integrations, Heroku, etc. I found it a breath for fresh air in some ways but lacking in others. And I have to say that I do 'like' working with C# and Azure and the rest, but I am at the point in my career, and with the market the way it is, that I could still possibly make a move and not take a major hit salary-wise, but I probably not for too longer.
For context I am approaching 40 and live in a major US city in the southeast, and I do not have an interest in going into management.
by onion2k on 1/12/22, 5:18 PM
Secondly, some recruiters are liars who will tell you literally anything to try to get you to apply for jobs they're recruiting for. A recruiter saying MSFT stack is a dead-end just means they don't have many MSFT stack jobs on their books. If they had one they'd put you forward for it, and not tell you that they think the stack is a dead-end.
MSFT's stack is not going to disappear any time soon. It's growing just like all the rest of the industry. There's definitely no harm in learning other things, but don't write it off if you want to carry on with it either.
by WorldMaker on 1/12/22, 5:54 PM
One of the key complaints about "Dark Matter Developers" is that you mostly don't hear from them (especially on HN): they don't have splashy startups to advertise, they aren't exciting recruiters with the things they claim to be doing. They are getting jobs done and clocking out.
That continues to describe a LOT of the jobs using the Microsoft stack, they are Dark Matter Jobs: they are in almost every industry in the world. They pay well enough, but not too well. They aren't exciting. HN and sometimes Big Shot Recruiters generally have no reason to hear from them (because they hire more directly, or because they only need a couple developers at a time).
The Microsoft Stack jobs will probably always be like that. Just quietly out there (and all around). Numbers and statistics (and revenue) all suggest that there are a lot of them. They just sound like a "dead end" mostly because they are "stable" and "boring".
[1] https://www.hanselman.com/blog/dark-matter-developers-the-un...
by vsgzusnex on 1/12/22, 5:39 PM
From what I can see Microsoft stack is used mostly by enterprises that are not engineering centric.
For all of the largest engineering centric companies that pay top of market only one heavily uses Microsoft....and that is Microsoft. Furthermore most VC funded startups also tend to shy away from Microsoft stacks. (Exception being parts of Azure compatible outside of the MSFT stack and other polyglot tools like VScode)
So while I don't think you need to worry about employability I wouldn't recommend investment in the stack to new graduates. Obviously my perspective is limited so I'm curious to hear counter points.
by martinald on 1/12/22, 5:32 PM
By conservative I mean not rushing into new shiny things all the time, finding out later down the line that it isn't fit for purpose and having to rewrite it. If anything they are the other way round (too much .NET framework dev still going on IMO). The JS ecosystem is terrible for this and I find it really frustrating.
I would agree though that it is seen as quite an uncool stack and I don't see many startups use it, which is a shame as .NET core really changed the equation for me on the whole stack (I really disliked having to use windows server before).
However, there are still an enormous amount of corporates and SMEs that use it, so I can't see the work drying up. Often the pay is better as well at these firms than startups (but probably less chance of a big equity payoff).
by acdha on 1/12/22, 5:51 PM
I would certainly make sure you have experience with multiple options in different categories so you have a good baseline for comparisons (e.g. AWS is the most popular so you’re not going to regret learning it but Azure isn’t exactly nothing). Beyond that, look at what’s popular in your area — e.g. if it’s mostly Java, you might want to learn that, move to a bigger market, or survey the remote options. I would be surprised if you didn’t have C# openings in any major metro area but all employers aren’t created equal and it might be a good red flag to heed if there isn’t much and/or they don’t have a good reputation.
by gregors on 1/12/22, 6:19 PM
C# is a Microsoft's Java, Azure is Microsoft's AWS, Surface is Microsoft's MacBook, Teams is Microsoft's Slack, Codeplex is Microsoft's Github - well ok I'll give them that last one they paid enough for it. But remember Github is rails.
The tech isn't bad. It can and does power anything and everything. There are some interesting fintech companies built on .NET. It's not an issue with the technology, it's an issue with the culture of the companies that use that technology.
Look at Stackoverflow - that's the epitome of an unapologetic .NET shop. I feel that the culture at Stackoverflow was extremely different than most .NET shops I've dealt with. Maybe you should find cool companies building cool things that are in your stack? Check out https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/platform/customers for some ideas. If you're not finding what makes you happy, do what I did and look elsewhere. Best of luck.
by AdamN on 1/12/22, 5:35 PM
MS stack will be high quality and used by clients with $$$ for the rest of your career.
With that said, any serious non-MS shop will be happy to have your experience and so switching up stacks shouldn't be a problem either if you find a good team.
I would just apply broadly and go from there.
by ripberge on 1/12/22, 5:58 PM
I was actually bearish on MSFT about 10 years ago, but since Ballmer has been gone I have seen a big improvement in cloud, developer tooling and a clearly different attitude towards Linux and open source software. Very confident in .NET now.
by bob1029 on 1/12/22, 6:49 PM
MS "development stack" (assuming .NET/C#/VS2022/AspNetCore)? Never.
You can safely disregard this recruiter's advice. Presumably, it's based on some bullshit statistical survey or other meaningless waste of time.
If you were to use HN submission statistics to determine which tech stack would be the best fit your business or career, you are probably going to fail really badly.
I've been doing pure Microsoft/.NET/C# tech stack for ~8 years now at a small startup. We solve complicated problems for other businesses. The simpler our operations are, the more $$$ we can make. You better believe that if there was some tech stack that provided a better TCO, especially in a B2B setting, we would have already been on top of it years ago. Some of the paths bandied about in popular hacker culture today didn't even exist when we started this product.
If you want popular/shiny/fun, listen to your recruiter and the broader tech community. I don't even mean this pejoratively. Some people have enough money and just want to do work that feels fun and exciting. C#/.NET is fun & exciting to me, but I can see how it's not "shiny" enough for many.
by wenc on 1/12/22, 5:54 PM
MS stacks tend to get used in companies where the final product is not software, but things and services.
2) Also not true. MS dev tools today are far better than they used to be and C# is a pleasure to write in.
That said Azure still has complexity and reliability issues. It’s getting better but I executed a one year long project on it recently and it was difficult getting permissions right plus there was a lot of unexpected complexity working with App Services.
by indymike on 1/12/22, 5:59 PM
This market is still huge. That said, the real question is what do you like building and working on? Do that. Besides, retooling isn't really all that bad, anyway and there is not an extinction event on the horizon for MS.
> no developer really wants to work with MSF tech.
Says every one about the tech they are not using in their product. There are plenty of devs that absolutely love MS stuff. What really matters is what you like working with. Do what you like to do. It makes getting up and going to work a lot easier.
by belfalas on 1/12/22, 5:33 PM
by closeparen on 1/12/22, 5:34 PM
But there are plenty of solidly middle-class developer jobs in the IT departments of traditional companies, and a robust ecosystem of small consulting firms all around the country; I would guess that your best bet for optimizing lifetime earnings on the Microsoft stack is to grow some business savvy and start one of those.
by niffydroid on 1/12/22, 5:38 PM
Likewise C# has been around for a while, sure companies may move away from it, but it will always be used, but again someone who can do C# are probably in a good position to pick up another language as well.
by dehrmann on 1/12/22, 5:51 PM
by gigel82 on 1/12/22, 5:43 PM
C# for non-backend scenarios is a different story; no charts but IMO it's been going downhill since WinForms (WPF, UWP, Blazer, etc. all dead in the water).
by tw04 on 1/12/22, 6:27 PM
As Amazon moves to compete directly with more and more of their customers, you'll find more and more of those customers fleeing to Microsoft and Google and IBM. At this point there is basically 0 chance MS gives up on Azure and very little chance they are not around indefinitely. They run their own services on Azure so there will always be a reason for it to exist as long as MS exists. MS is too big to be acquired, and short of government intervention of some sort are too diversified to have a bad quarter, or even a bad decade put them out of business.
You will have no issues finding a job learning the MS stack IMO, it'll likely just be more focused on the corporate world than the startup world. If you want the startup lifestyle, you'd probably have more opportunities with another stack. If you want a stable, well-paying job pretty much anywhere in the world, the MS stack is just fine.
by balls187 on 1/12/22, 5:55 PM
Is MSFT stack the darling of Silicon Valley? No.
Is it used widely? Yes.
MSFT and Google had no interest in losing cloud market, so you will be fine in either ecosystem.
At 40, with no interest in management, my suggestion would be moving towards principal architect / principal software engineer roles, where you are considered the defacto company expert in X. Sounds like you have a lot of MSFT technology experience, and I have to imagine you will find work until you no longer wish to work.
Also, I would consider marketing your skillset; MSFT makes good products, and teams/companies may not be aware. I wouldn't say "Why are you using Javascript and not .NET" as that is not a wise question, but rather, show how investing in MSFT toolchains would benefit their org.
by marmarama on 1/12/22, 6:37 PM
Azure is huge and increasing market share. AWS is reaching some limits to its growth and some of its underlying architecture, and while it is far from perfect itself, Azure is very well placed to take advantage. It is considerably more mature than it was even 2 years ago and is a pretty decent platform to work with. It is also in no way tied to "the Microsoft stack".
I work with AWS, Azure and GCP regularly, and the node, Python, Ruby and .net ecosystems, and honestly I prefer working with .net and Azure than node and AWS. Node is a real mess of bad code, bad ideas, and inconsistent and often bad design. AWS is failing to fix serious architectural issues, and feels like none of the product teams talk to each other at all.
That said, if you've been stuck in Microsoftworld all your career, make a change.
by octobus2021 on 1/12/22, 6:14 PM
- Recruiters are basically sales people. Some (not all) will try to convince you that the stack they're specializing in is the best one in the world and the rest of technologies are almost dead (nothing personal against recruiters btw, they are people and need to put the food on the table too).
- Microsoft has a higher barrier to entry, and makes it more difficult to leave. So you won't see many 3-people startups but more established companies who've been with MSFT since Windows 95/2000.
- Cannot speak for the front-end (I'm assuming .NET/etc), I've been specializing in MSFT BI for a number of years (since pre-Azure). Definitely see that the space somewhat stagnated, new companies are not starting their BI/data analytics projects with MSFT toolset, new entrants mostly go with AWS (Amazon throws a lot of money to continuously improve it and beef up their consulting arm) and other vendors. AWS seems to better suit rapid development philosophy as in "let's get all the data we can get in one place and see what we can do with it". MSFT tools are better suited for traditional data warehousing (as in "Enterprise Data Warehouse") concept which is currently (deservedly) frowned upon. Yes I know MSFT has the Data Lake, Spark, Kafka, etc etc but they are essentially playing catch-up with AWS and all the smaller guys, while incurring higher cost for their customers.
[Edit: formatting]
by smhinsey on 1/12/22, 5:22 PM
by mypalmike on 1/12/22, 5:47 PM
by jeffwask on 1/12/22, 5:22 PM
by friendlydog on 1/12/22, 6:55 PM
I am pretty familiar with the North American US job market and have participated as an interviewer and interviewee.
After 40 expect discrimination in the job market, you shouldn't have to, but you will. Consider what makes your personal brand unique and play up your experience and current trajectory of upskilling.
by rzimmerman on 1/12/22, 6:24 PM
When companies are small and the engineers choose the tech stack and tools, they choose the ones that they like best: Slack vs Teams, G Suite vs Office, AWS or GCP vs Azure. At least in the circles I work in.
When companies are larger and/or the management and IT teams choose the tech stack, it's Microsoft's game. They are experts at selling to the business world. If you're in charge of purchasing you see that Office + Teams + Windows is much cheaper than Macbooks + Slack + GSuite. Microsoft is very good at meeting all the same requirements at a lower price, even if the experience is worse for the user.
I strongly prefer to work at a non-MS shop because the tools are better for me. But the dev stack is by no means a dead-end - there are tons of jobs and work to do in C#, .NET. Also Azure is fine, VSCode is actually very good. But you won't be an obvious fit at a small tech startup. When I see a bunch of MS stack on a resume I'm honestly skeptical of fit.
by mindcrime on 1/12/22, 6:44 PM
That said... I would not say that Azure is a dead-end at all. The rest of the MS dev stack, I am less sure about. But Azure as a cloud provider seems to be pretty much neck and neck with AWS, and I've seen plenty of evidence of big companies continuing to invest more and more into Azure migrations.
I haven't done any scientific comparison or anything, but from where I sit (live/work in a major tech area in the Southeast US) I get the vibe that Azure is pretty popular and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. Note however, I don't intend to suggest that using Azure means anything about using any other MS tech. Most of what I see is people running Java based apps in containers on AKS backed by Linux instances.
YMMV, HTH, ETC.
by MattGaiser on 1/12/22, 6:11 PM
My last company used Azure for everything. The languages of development were overwhelmingly JavaScript, Python (Django and Flask), with a tiny bit of Java. c# did arrive, but only after the development team mostly all quit and they had to rehire.
by apohn on 1/12/22, 6:05 PM
A lot of customers would hear "We are on AWS" and immediately follow up with "Are you planning on Azure? We have standardized on Azure." So many customers asked about running one of the PaaS products on Azure that the company was basically forced to build an Azure version. These were all well known Fortune companies in the Fortune 100/500, not some failing big-corp.
That being said, the customers were all large non software companies (e.g. Volkswagen). We definitely didn't sell to startups outside of some marketing BS.
I don't think Azure is a dead-end. But from a pure job flexibility standpoint, AWS obviously gives you the largest set of employers to choose from if you want to work for a startup or software company.
by smt88 on 1/12/22, 5:15 PM
by k4ch0w on 1/12/22, 10:35 PM
Would I go hard learning C#, kernel32, IIS and MSVC today? No. I would bet against a windows desktop environment in 15 years time, however that’s just me. We also see a shift from Active Directory as well for managing your users.
It’s still in demand and useful however. One thing I will say from personal experience, overseas clients use Microsoft more than the US ones. In Israel, I swear every company was using Microsoft’s stack.
I would just go in with a I can learn anything attitude in interviews and not get stuck on being boxed into A Microsoft environment.
by activitypea on 1/12/22, 5:44 PM
To the recruiter's second point: It sounds to me that, like most recruiters, they only interact with people inside the zoomer web dev bubble. Sure, MS and Azure aren't sexy, knowing them won't get you free drinks at Silicon Valley parties, but the software development world is much bigger than that.
by vamega on 1/12/22, 6:27 PM
My personal take on this is that companies predominantly that work in other languages tend to pay more, and hence C# is a less desirable language to learn. This is especially true of the current crop of high paying companies (FAANG + some unicorns). None of them seem to be deep into the C# stack.
However Azure and C#/.Net aren't necessarily tied together. I've seen a lot of companies deploying other languages on top of Azure.
It's a bit of a pity with C#. C# is an excellent languages with great tooling. F# is IMO an even better language which needs a little more investment in tooling.
by wayoutthere on 1/12/22, 5:32 PM
In short, Microsoft has the best B2B software sales engine that has ever existed. This has been true for at least 30 years. It’s the main reason for their success — they know how to get people to pay for their products. It’s not the flashiest tech but it’s enough of what their users need, and the sales engine makes doing business with Microsoft easy. AWS has a lot more friction in their enterprise sales process, so they rely a lot more on developer inertia and word of mouth.
by joezydeco on 1/12/22, 5:15 PM
Your recruiter only cares about fields that can get candidates placed. Of course he needs to drop hot buzzwords to get people interested.
by NicoJuicy on 1/12/22, 5:38 PM
And i thought dot net has never been as popular as now.
Simple search: https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-this-old...
:)
by mrj on 1/12/22, 5:31 PM
The node/react world tends to be more popular with younger companies and startups.
You'll find overlap in these worlds but it is a hard road to go against the overall direction of a market. It'll limit opportunities but can be done. It's up to you to figure out which is more suitable. But it's not a dead-end. If you're looking around and noticing your peers aren't into the same things you are, you may be trying to go against the direction of the market. You could try changing your peers.
by fareesh on 1/12/22, 5:31 PM
by CottonMcKnight on 1/12/22, 7:04 PM
Those acquisitions in particular are already paying big dividends: very little new tech has excited me the way that GitHub Copilot does.
Conversely, AWS is the standard, and is way ahead, but it doesn't inspire enthusiasm the way that Microsoft tech does. They are laser-focused entirely on expanding their services to every conceivable niche, but (IMO) they are ignoring the fundamentals of developer experience, at their own peril.
by Nextgrid on 1/12/22, 6:04 PM
And of course, Microsoft-based stacks (MSSQL, ASP.NET, .NET including Core) is still a very solid stack that gets shit done. It may not be "sexy" but if you look beyond the "developer" angle and look at the "solving business problems" angle, you can "get shit done" with an MS stack and your clients won't care because they only want the "shit done", regardless of how it is done.
by kgwxd on 1/12/22, 5:56 PM
If the new kids really don't want to use it, specializing in it might be an advantage for the older crowd since we'll happily take the work if they don't want it. I work with some pretty big companies that still run .NET 2.0 based services. I think there will be work in it for a very long time.
by pinewurst on 1/12/22, 5:11 PM
by stakkur on 1/12/22, 5:48 PM
These companies/industries have strongly entrenched attachment to the Microsoft world, its certifications, etc. Microsoft cultivates this, Amazon imitates this, others try to emulate this. Because $$$.
by yokoprime on 1/12/22, 6:09 PM
by keneda7 on 1/12/22, 6:49 PM
Currently working at a company that offers online pre employment testing. We integrate with a lot of applicant tracking systems. Our entire backend is written in dotnetcore. A lot of our partners are also using dotnetcore. There is no way I would classify it as a dead-end job. It definitely is not used as much at the big FAANG but there are plenty of small to medium size companies that rely on the MS dev stack.
by oneplane on 1/12/22, 6:08 PM
Work on having portable knowledge if you want that security, and work on what you like to have an enjoyable job.
by NotVerstappen on 1/12/22, 6:00 PM
Azure is an inferior platform to the alternatives on a technical level, but they make up for it with stronger enterprise relationship-building than AWS/GCP, and they do generally try to keep up with broad AWS capabilities of not the actual quality.
by guilhas on 1/12/22, 7:03 PM
I am from a startup using Microsoft
But I am the opinion that companies doing boring development tend to use a lot Microsoft. Less cutting edge. More standard
Also because their tools are so integrated, the developer mindset kind of gets stuck. And less open to new and experimental. So they might get themselves too comfortable and stale
by LoungeFlyZ on 1/13/22, 6:45 PM
by skeeter2020 on 1/12/22, 6:21 PM
by beaugunderson on 1/12/22, 9:32 PM
by francisofascii on 1/12/22, 6:24 PM
by cols on 1/12/22, 5:40 PM
So many businesses and governments are using the stack that it is going to be around for quite some time even if it isn’t the new hotness.
by golover721 on 1/12/22, 6:13 PM
by ryanmccullagh on 1/12/22, 6:40 PM
by 23B1 on 1/12/22, 7:02 PM
by thrower123 on 1/12/22, 6:17 PM
by epx on 1/12/22, 6:07 PM
by dzonga on 1/12/22, 6:04 PM
by toomuchtodo on 1/12/22, 5:21 PM
by formsauth on 1/12/22, 5:44 PM
by anovikov on 1/12/22, 5:26 PM
by marstall on 1/12/22, 5:33 PM
by tinus_hn on 1/12/22, 5:54 PM
They probably burned people a few times too often, which is one of the reasons people rather stay away. And another one might be that it’s all ‘enterprise’ which isn’t necessarily an inspiring environment.
by pjbeam on 1/12/22, 5:24 PM
by aldebran on 1/12/22, 5:50 PM
by Shadonototra on 1/12/22, 5:43 PM
From a carreer PoV, you'd better experimenting with everything
Being vendor locked is no good, it prevents you from adopting opportunities quicker than your competitors