by hoop on 8/17/11, 6:26 PM with 111 comments
by nathanb on 8/17/11, 7:33 PM
You can argue that if the culture shifted such that these individuals were marginalized and forced out then they would change out of necessity. I could see this argument--idealistic to the point of fallacy though it is--presented at other venues. However, those who frequent Hacker News should know that these people will find talented others who are capable of dealing with their social immaturity and will end up co-founding their own company and, unencumbered by the enforced social niceties of this fictional society, may very well end up becoming a dominant player and returning to the status quo.
by reduxredacted on 8/17/11, 8:10 PM
I work for MegaCorp. We have developers here that are incredibly difficult to get along with and a few that are great. There seems to be this sense that the more capable and intelligent a person is the more frequently they're jerks to deal with. I haven't found this to be true. There are plenty of good devs that aren't "holier than thou" (and one of the best devs I worked with was clearly on the extroverted side, though most of them land on the introverted side of things).
I will say, though, that more people have ended up being let go for attitude, rather than work quality where I am employed. To put it plainly, in a large corporation where you have to work amongst imaginary and real bureaucracy, it doesn't matter how skilled you are, if you can't work with people you won't get anything done. Your fantastic project/work will not be looked at because nobody will care to see it and your manager (often non-technical) won't want to show it off because you keep aggravating him or putting him in the awkward position of defending your behavior to his superiors.
by sbarre on 8/17/11, 8:48 PM
No one is asking engineers to be salesmen or glad-handing PR people. But as so many others have pointed out, any mature adult, no matter their vocation, should have the basic social understanding of "this is ok to do/say" and "this is not ok to do/say" for most given situations.
i.e. tact..
And to all of you who hide behind the "that's not learnable for me, I'm awkward/nerdy/shy/neckbearded" excuses, I call bullshit. Grow up.
I was the epitome of awkward, shy and socially inept (since childhood) as a developer, and in my mid-20s I made the conscious choice to overcome these things. To become more professional and to learn how to communicate and interact properly with my co-workers, superiors, reports and YES even customers.
And I did it by just throwing myself in the fire. It was hard at first, but I figured it out. And it has opened so many doors and opportunities for me.
The combination of my technical competency as a developer and my professional communication skills has been a huge asset for me when looking for work and new opportunities.
Plus, on the lighter side, it eventually helped me with my inter-personal communication and social skills as an added bonus! (i.e. it got me laid more) :-)
by araneae on 8/17/11, 7:29 PM
Well fuck me, then. I'm sorry, it's already hard enough for me to find jobs as it is.
Frankly I'm glad we live in a society that has a place for us social retards. I really do believe that social "skills" can't be learned, at least not well. I'm glad there's a place for us, just like I'm glad there's a place for people who are short, black, or ugly. Yeah, there are fewer employment opportunities, and our salaries are handicapped consequentially (tech skills + people skills = high payed manager!) but telling us we should be out on our asses for something we can't help is cruel.
Obviously the guy should have been fired though.
by Jach on 8/17/11, 7:38 PM
by Wilya on 8/17/11, 9:29 PM
"All it takes for someone to be good at customer service is: [...]".
This sounds so simple. And it misses quite the point. Lacking "social skills", is precisely this : not knowing how to behave completely "normally" (whatever that means) with other people. Like, not grasping the effect of your words, or not being able to think them through fast enough before saying them. Of course, I want to be helpful, and to answer the person in front of me (or on the phone). That doesn't mean that it is what the person will see or hear.
by CapitalistCartr on 8/18/11, 12:42 AM
When I handle a project from beginning to end, it goes smoother. I find any mistakes I've made myself; I know what assumptions I made at every step; I don't have to get my head around the job over and over again; it's all-round easier.
When a team does projects, it requires rules, with some rigidity. Each person has to act somewhat like an object-oriented sub-routine, with guaranteed input, guaranteed output. This does add some overhead, but it allows each person to function with relative freedom in his own space.
Social rules and conventions are the rules for the team comprised of a culture doing the project of living. They allow us to get through the day using hundreds of social shortcuts; assumptions about each other's behavior, needs, wants, expectations.
by lsc on 8/17/11, 10:24 PM
I mean, one of those things is just being rude. The other is going out of your way to damage someone else.
Personally, I would put up with a lot of the first. Rude people, of course, shouldn't be in customer service, but on the back end, eh, if they are good enough, I think they are worth keeping around. Especially if they are the extremely direct, blunt and honest kind of rude, I think they can actually be better back end people, sometimes, than people who try to twist things to look better than they are.
But people who destroy things when they are angry or insulted? yeah, those people should not be let anywhere near a root prompt.
by mekoka on 8/17/11, 10:24 PM
Imo, most socially-inept tech people are simply individuals that are more sensitive to the hypocrisy and nonsense one is exposed to when dealing with the public.
I don't know if being a tech person is a cause or an effect of that bullshit sensitivity, but as a programmer who used to be a bouncer in a bar a few years ago, I can tell you that some of my non-tech colleagues were by far very quick at losing their temper than I was.
Now, there's a difference between being bullshit intolerant and being malicious. I am of the firm opinion that the actions of that Tech support guy (deleting data out of pure spite) are certainly not characteristic of the tech-guy stereotype as we know it.
by hong on 8/17/11, 7:58 PM
by mrcharles on 8/17/11, 7:49 PM
Stop letting writers get away with technical ineptitude!
by ori_b on 8/17/11, 11:43 PM
by ulisesroche on 8/17/11, 7:41 PM
by jarin on 8/17/11, 9:33 PM
by methodin on 8/17/11, 7:37 PM
"A compassionate, helpful, and courteous attitude" - See above.
"The knowledge of whatever their supporting" - An understanding of the technical side of a product is vastly different from the functional side as its easy for a developer to say "This is sample. You hit X, then Y then select Z and find Q" which does not translate in any way to a client understanding a product and the frustration of dealing with "simpletons" shines through - thus leading to outbursts like we've seen.
This is of course the standard. I would imagine entrepreneurs and such do not follow this guideline, but for a generic programmer these traits are not something that are a typical side-effect of the craft unless you start moving up in rank.
The fact that the author would be offended by the statements mentioned really reiterates the point that most developers take things entirely too personally. I know I did for the better part of 10 years.
by tedkalaw on 8/17/11, 7:21 PM
It seems like there will always parts of "geek culture" that just don't care. Perhaps they're even proud of social ineptitude? But those aren't engineers I would want to work with.
by Rantenki on 8/17/11, 7:43 PM
Cure: Management should be offended by engineers and flush THEIR livelihood (job)
Seems symmetrical, but perhaps over-simplifying the problem? Of course I realize that the article above doesn't directly advocate firing the engineer, but many high-functioning technical people just cannot realistically be trained to be social animals too. Those abrasive nerds are really productive outside of a customer service role, so wouldn't a better solution be to fix the mis-allocation of tech staffing resources to customer facing roles?
edit: and yeah, maybe the problem is that this particular engineer was just a dick, and we shouldn't use him as an example in the discussion of technical vs social roles in our companies.
by duggan on 8/17/11, 8:52 PM
Here's a thought: anyone in a position of "power" is susceptible to this dynamic; if "social" relationships were described as an equation, then power (P) would be inversely proportional to the effort or energy (E) you need to expend to maintain any given social relationship (R),
P = R/E
The more power/authority you wield, the more of a jerk you can be (not should be or are), because the value of the relationship is lopsided - you don't need to spend as much energy on it.
The power an engineer holds is that they are often quite valuable within an organization, and tend to have an easily transferable skill set.
by drivingmenuts on 8/17/11, 7:58 PM
by cruise02 on 8/17/11, 7:36 PM
by cHalgan on 8/18/11, 2:51 AM
In order words, "tact" is something you need to learn. Especially in internet world where doing something stupid is just a click away.
by mrcharles on 8/17/11, 8:16 PM
And that's before you get a customer-facing role.
by dsl on 8/17/11, 8:32 PM
This seems like a whole lot of attention over what seems like one guy who is an asshole.
by mahmud on 8/18/11, 4:14 AM
by joshu on 8/17/11, 11:35 PM
by badusername on 8/17/11, 7:52 PM
Can anyone post up a copy? Seems like a sensational title - would love to see the argument.
by sdfjkl on 8/17/11, 7:50 PM
Someone needs a socially inept engineer to fix their website.
by kahawe on 8/17/11, 7:48 PM
I do think the (stereo-)typical techs can be said to prefer focusing on interesting problems and on their computers rather than having to deal with people all day long - possibly angry or even downright abusive customers demanding support. I don't see the (stereo-)typical techs as slimy and very skilled at playing the political game and manipulating people and advancing the career ladder through it. (which is something I would see as very specific but definitely STRONG people skills, no matter how repulsive.)
But that doesn't mean all techs don't have any manners or empathy.
by ldar15 on 8/17/11, 8:46 PM
Stopped reading right there.
"I am a technical person who also has ability Y, therefore all technical people should have ability Y."
This is the thinking that would sit Magic Johnson down and say "Your ball game is pretty good, but your golf game is awful. Stop working on your basketball skills and start golf training."
Bottom line: customer support requires ability, certain personality traits, and training. Do not let anyone (technical, non-technical, CFO, anyone) handle customer support if they are not qualified. It will end badly.
by jpr on 8/18/11, 9:31 AM
by sabat on 8/17/11, 7:28 PM
by recoiledsnake on 8/17/11, 7:53 PM
There are tons of geeks who are really personable.
Taking one example of an engineer who may have had a bad day because of people being rude/confrontational and extrapolating them to social ineptitude of engineers is missing the forest for the trees.
by russell on 8/17/11, 7:52 PM