by terseus on 6/28/21, 10:23 AM with 644 comments
by lbriner on 6/28/21, 11:27 AM
Gone are the days where you bought something from a shop with no stickiness other than good service brought you back. Now there are far too many Marketing Managers who see stickiness as a win, even though the win is only to the supplier and not to the customer.
It is similar to those web sites who ask you whether you want "notifications" from them in your OS! Nope.
by shantnutiwari on 6/28/21, 12:19 PM
Around 1-2 years ago, I upgraded MS Office on my Windows laptop. It asked me for my username/password-- which I didnt think strange, as I assumed it needed it to upgrade.
And thats when I got a message "Good news! Your Windows machine now uses your Microsoft to login."
W.T.F.
I was never asked, never warned, just tricked into replacing my local login with an online one.
Took me 10-20 minutes of Googling to get my original setting back.
I have now turned off ALL updates for Windows-- it is my backup machine, for a few programs that only run on Windows.
Every update on Windows scared me (and still does), as I dont know what dark pattern they will try this time.
by fouric on 6/28/21, 1:07 PM
I have no reason to believe that Microsoft will not pull a Google and start spuriously locking people out of their accounts (as happens every few months on HN), which may then prevent me from logging in to my own computer.
In fact, I've already been locked out of my Microsoft account for "suspicious activity" (which was literally just purchasing Minecraft) and was required to enter a phone number to unlock it. Literal theft - I was compelled to either give up additional personal information or lose access to the software I paid for.
by itronitron on 6/28/21, 11:51 AM
Product companies should take note, I'd probably own a few more electronics if they didn't require that consumers 'create an account' or associate an email address in order to use the thing.
by acapybara on 6/28/21, 12:23 PM
Having used Microsoft OSes since DOS, this was the straw that finally broke the camel's back.
After dabbling in Linux for years, this was motivation to commit 100% to using Linux as my main OS. It was mildly painful at first, but after sticking with it, I would never go back.
by DrBazza on 6/28/21, 1:47 PM
I can understand from a company perspective that this kind of thing reduces piracy (and losses for a $2tn company), potentially improves the Windows upgrade route in future, and has minor benefits to some customers (cloud storage + 'take your account anywhere').
But there's exactly zero technical reasons to push this onto customers.
I mostly use Linux all the time now so it won't be a problem to completely ditch Windows, but it's a shame that it's come to this.
by HumblyTossed on 6/28/21, 1:36 PM
Yes, you will. Eventually. They'll continue to beat you down until you submit. Because, here's the secret. Even though you built the machine from the ground up, hand selecting all the parts, once you install Windows, the machine belongs to Microsoft. No, really, it does. They certainly think so. And they're a rich powerful organization, so it must be so.
by w4rh4wk5 on 6/28/21, 12:04 PM
And no, I am not going to remember that, or change it to something simpler. (Yes I know about entropy and correct horse battery staple!)
by sfgweilr4f on 6/28/21, 2:39 PM
I don't know the actual answer because I don't work for Microsoft but I'm lazy enough to assume it is about money. Its financially rewarding for Microsoft to have hordes of Home users online. That telemetry is valuable. Those eyeballs are valuable. That level of engagement is valuable. Its telling that Pro and Enterprise versions operate without the same level. Home users always online is worth Microsoft either enforcing or in the very least "encouraging" this state.
That is a sufficient theory for me. I might not have the full picture but its accurate enough to form opinions and predict Microsoft's future behavior. I'd expect multiple pathways around leveraging that online presence even further. You haven't seen anything yet. This is just the beginning.
by brushfoot on 6/28/21, 11:57 AM
- Screen tearing. I Googled around and installed the Nvidia drivers for my laptop, but it never went away.
- No detection of tablet mode.
- No auto screen rotation.
- Slow Blender rendering. Probably a PEBKAC with my driver setup, but it just worked in Windows and it was easy to select Nvidia vs. integrated graphics.
- MS Teams shared my desktop as a giant blur.
- LibreOffice is still bad and incompatible with what my company does in Office, though that may matter less with Office Online.
Is there a distro that Just Works more so than Ubuntu? I'm sure I could have solved all of the above with enough time and effort, but I'm not in a good position to do that right now.
by codecalec on 6/28/21, 11:03 AM
by nickjj on 6/28/21, 12:19 PM
Short of not connecting to the internet first the only way I saw where it was possible to create an offline account was to first attempt to sign in using an incorrect password with a hotmail account. It was only after failing that where an option appeared to create a local account.
It doesn't stop there too. Now once in a while when they turn the machine on and reach the login screen, there's a big banner that says something along the lines of "Hey, you're missing out on very important features and are less secure by not registering an account with Microsoft..." with a call to action to link a MS account. This also hides the login screen by default and the only way to ignore that and get to the login screen is to click somewhere in the empty space but for a non-technical user this isn't intuitive. They always try to click the only thing that looks clickable. It's so shady.
Sadly I had to make a MS account for them in the end to unlock Windows "S" mode into a regular version of Windows 10 Home so I could install an app that wasn't in the app store on their machine. The only way to do that was to make a MS account for the Microsoft Store but fortunately you can still login to Windows itself with the offline account. It never ends.
by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on 6/28/21, 1:21 PM
Yes, these decisions annoy myself and most users on this site, but we are in the minority here. Most people do not care and just want to be up and running. They want security/configuration to be easy. They don't want to have to think about it. I think that a lot of this will be good in the long run for security.
by null_object on 6/28/21, 11:49 AM
by 1337turtle on 6/28/21, 12:15 PM
by GekkePrutser on 6/28/21, 11:10 AM
Edit: Thanks @yourusername, I had missed the part where it's only for the home edition. I'm glad there is still a way.
by qalmakka on 6/28/21, 12:16 PM
by eddieroger on 6/28/21, 12:31 PM
by sandworm101 on 6/28/21, 11:31 AM
by dzonga on 6/28/21, 4:40 PM
Then also owned a macbook pro 2018 with mojave, that crashed every 2 days like ol' windows. switched to ubuntu for my thinkpad, still hibernate wasn't reliable. end up putting win 10 pro on the thinkpad, n stability from hibernation is amazing. it feels like the old os x.
so yeah, win 11 for me is a moot point - no need to upgrade
by bitL on 6/28/21, 12:58 PM
by prirun on 6/28/21, 2:15 PM
by phendrenad2 on 6/28/21, 1:28 PM
by 29athrowaway on 6/28/21, 2:05 PM
You created this problem. You kept buying Windows when they added telemetry, ads and other forms of privacy invasion, so you emboldened to go one step further. And when they are done with this they will invade your privacy more and more.
If Facebook can require Facebook login for the Oculus then Microsoft can require Microsoft Login for Windows. It works. You made it work.
If wolves accept the convenience of eating leftovers from human camps what is the worse that can happen? Yeah, they got domesticated. That just happened to you. By using a Microsoft account now you are living inside Microsoft's data farm as marked cattle.
It is not your computer anymore. You gave computing away by being complacent just like the wolves were.
Your decisions matter, and your decisions have consequences.
by orangegreen on 6/28/21, 2:19 PM
by dethos on 6/28/21, 12:41 PM
The current trend is making "personal computers" less personal.
by cesarb on 6/28/21, 1:49 PM
by cheese_van on 6/28/21, 1:33 PM
I just can't imagine a team of smart techs cheering this on with "Great idea!"
What pressures transpire to induce really smart teams to make such extravagantly poor decisions? It's a mystery.
by Causality1 on 6/28/21, 12:49 PM
by _trampeltier on 6/28/21, 11:26 AM
by streamofdigits on 6/28/21, 12:11 PM
by 41209 on 6/28/21, 2:05 PM
At this point why not just make the OS free ? I actually like office 365, by far it's the easiest way to backup my data
by xyst on 6/28/21, 1:21 PM
Some commenters report heavy dark patterns when trying to create a local account, but the experience is somewhat less burdensome on the “Pro” edition of Windows 10. If I recall correctly, I was immediately given the option to choose between an “online” vs “local” account after install. I opted for the local account and then immediately disabled all of the telemetry.
I have to recheck telemetry settings after updating to make sure they haven’t sneakily re-enabled it. I recall at least one time the existing settings were still disabled but they added a new telemetry setting which was enabled by default after an update.
by robomartin on 6/28/21, 3:09 PM
For the average consumer it is likely that a MS account is a good path. No different from connecting your iPhone to the App Store and iCloud, which most consumers do.
For the average consumer such things as automatic updates and some degree of management is a good thing.
Profesional and enterprise users are a different matter. In this case what is being presented here is a nonexistent problem. If a professional or enterprise user can’t figure out how to install and run Windows with the degree of control they desire, well, they might not actually be pro users. Using Hone edition? Please.
This is not a problem.
Something to gripe about for fun and entertainment? Sure. Have a blast. A problem? Nope. Never has been and never will be. MS has always provided professional users with the flexibility they require. Not doing so would destroy their business.
by CountDrewku on 6/28/21, 1:29 PM
by slumdev on 6/28/21, 2:25 PM
The Windows 11 changes will enable this plan by tying every computer to a real identity and using that identity to watermark all content.
I'm switching to Linux.
by mensetmanusman on 6/28/21, 2:32 PM
You do it by serving corporations, owned by a few of the ultra wealthy, who have captured all the economic productivity gains that MS-like software has brought the world economy.
by sys_64738 on 6/28/21, 6:57 PM
by PaulHoule on 6/28/21, 11:18 AM
My fear is that Microsoft is going to wreck it all in a fit of mindlessness. I wrote them a letter when they were in danger of impulsively stealing TikTok. So many of us depend on their products that we’d be devastated if they destroyed their ecosystem for no good reason. (Someday Microsoft may need to pick a fight with the CCP, but it had better do so for a good reason.)
by api on 6/28/21, 4:04 PM
They do try to encourage you to log in with an Apple account, but they don't seen to use dark patterns to do this. You can use a Mac without one but you will miss out on the store and any iCloud feature... but the machine still works fine.
There is an "allow your Apple account to unlock your local account" feature, but again no dark patterns. You can just uncheck it.
by Agentlien on 6/28/21, 3:19 PM
At the same time, I worry this might mean I may no longer be able to work from home, if my employer "upgrades" to Windows 11 and introduces some dependency on it. I guess if this happens I may need to accept commuting for two hours a day, again.
by jp0d on 6/28/21, 1:07 PM
by 6d6b73 on 6/28/21, 2:57 PM
by blumomo on 6/28/21, 1:43 PM
"Body activity data may be generated based on the sensed body activity of the user. The cryptocurrency system communicatively coupled to the device of the user may verify if the body activity data satisfies one or more conditions set by the cryptocurrency system, and award cryptocurrency to the user whose body activity data is verified."
I guess this mining technology requires the mining user/body to be connected to the internet, hence this move by Microsoft to require an active online account facilitates to role out this patent technology.
[1] https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO20...
by geranim0 on 6/28/21, 4:12 PM
by oolonthegreat on 6/28/21, 11:04 AM
by alyandon on 6/28/21, 1:59 PM
by xtiansimon on 6/28/21, 5:17 PM
At work I’m constantly updating registry to take videos, pictures etc out of my explorer window. Fracking clueless. Why should any of this be in Windows Pro is beyond me.
by masswerk on 6/28/21, 10:18 PM
Otherwise, I can't see, how this masquerade of pretended ownership may continue.
by Lendal on 6/28/21, 12:42 PM
> dir C:\Users\giantsfan123@yahoo.com\Downloads
Seems ridiculous to me.
by SavageBeast on 6/28/21, 2:06 PM
by haolez on 6/28/21, 1:09 PM
by syshum on 6/28/21, 1:27 PM
by gexla on 6/28/21, 1:26 PM
There's a difference between "supported" and "possible." Add a layer of marketing and UI magic and you get a lot of confusion.
Edited to add: Just because it's a new OS, doesn't mean the guts of the thing went through huge changes. The ways you create an account is probably the same from 10 to 11. It's just the GUI which is changing.
by okareaman on 6/28/21, 7:34 PM
by glandium on 6/28/21, 11:14 AM
by deregulateMed on 6/28/21, 12:58 PM
Things are fine in here as long as you stay in line and stick to the rules.
by spywaregorilla on 6/28/21, 12:29 PM
by intrasight on 6/28/21, 7:01 PM
by denkmoon on 6/28/21, 12:20 PM
by villgax on 6/28/21, 11:31 AM
by Woodi on 7/1/21, 6:37 AM
by jimnotgym on 6/28/21, 3:30 PM
... don't then. I thought I read Pro editions will still let you use a local account?
by blablablub on 6/28/21, 8:42 PM
by bradhe on 6/28/21, 4:17 PM
by bawana on 6/28/21, 1:18 PM
by _pdp_ on 6/28/21, 12:50 PM
by a3n on 6/28/21, 10:23 PM
by executesorder66 on 6/28/21, 3:57 PM
by haecceity on 6/28/21, 5:16 PM
by ddtaylor on 6/28/21, 12:59 PM
by ttt0 on 6/28/21, 11:44 AM
by FridayoLeary on 6/28/21, 1:44 PM
by rendall on 6/28/21, 12:41 PM
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by ChuckNorris89 on 6/28/21, 11:07 AM
I don't like this move either but you need an account to use a Mac, iPhone or Android and nobody seems to fuss about it.
So why only target Microsoft for doing what their competitors have been doing for a along time and why not protest against Apple and Google for making this practice the norm in the first place through their monopoly in the mobile space?