from Hacker News

Payments down 20% in my SaaS after EU introduced PSD2

by rokkk on 5/10/21, 8:45 PM with 117 comments

  • by Denvercoder9 on 5/10/21, 9:07 PM

    This article would be significantly better if it introduces what PSD2 and 3DS actually are, for those unaware of the abbreviations.

    PSD2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_Services_Directive#Rev...

    3DS - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-D_Secure

    Furthermore, I want to note that the author works for a company that sells products that "eliminate unnecessary 3DS friction" (in their own words).

  • by morpheuskafka on 5/10/21, 9:01 PM

    > The first thing that can reduce conversions is the higher rate of 3DS triggered user abandonment. Since many consumers are not familiar with the 3DS process, there is a higher chance of abandonment during the authentication process.

    This would presumably go away once PSD2 is fully implemented and all purchases require it, which is a benefit of requiring it by law rather than letting merchants choose whether or not to require it. Requiring it is a common good in the sense that it reduces the economy's overall loss due to fraud.

    Additionally, as the article mentions, using 3DS shifts liability for charge not authorized disputes from the merchant to the bank. Thus, the decreased rate of conversions must be compared against decreased losses due to chargebacks.

  • by hocuspocus on 5/10/21, 9:11 PM

    So, some VP at a fraud prevention company recommends merchants to avoid using 3DS and use a fraud detection platform, got it.

    I don't know if we can find better data somewhere else but I would assume that abandonment rates will decrease thanks to PSD2:

    - SMS tokens are finally on their way out; more and more people are installing their bank's mobile app, which is used as the second factor (you get a push notification, you have to unlock and accept the transaction).

    - We'll see some harmonization across EU/EEA merchants. No more cases of "the German website doesn't trigger 3DS but the French one does".

  • by dr_faustus on 5/10/21, 9:17 PM

    EU did not "introduce" PSD2 this year, it was/should have been in effect since Sept 2019!

    However, the member states (and therefore the EU) have cut the banks an inordinate amount of slack to get their shit together, even though they have been heavily involved in the writing of PSD2 and had since 2015 (!) to implement everything. Here in Germany, in September 2019, which should have been the hard end of a one year grace period, practically no bank actually had a working PSD2 API or had implemented 2 factor authorization properly.

    So all the whining about PSD2 six years after it passed is ridiculous. Everybody had plenty of warning and time to get their site prepared and checkout processes optimized. And quite frankly, unless the author of the article is running some kind of one-click order scam, I find the drop of up to 50% in conversion highly unlikely. From my experience with dozens of e-commerce site, the drop is negligible. And considering the rampant credit card fraud, 2FA was long overdue.

  • by WesolyKubeczek on 5/10/21, 9:17 PM

    The practical outcome looks more like:

    → Customers who have had their card on file will fail the next subscription payment. Many are going to discover they have been paying for months/years for something they didn't really need, and walk away.

    → Incorrect 3D-Secure integration will cause payments from EU to fail straight away. Even some payment gateways didn't understand how it worked back when the enforcement loomed for the first time, and this is literally their job. The solution is to read the documentation carefully and fix your stuff.

    It's a misconception that people are going to get confused by PSD2. We in Europe, depending on the bank, have had it for two years now. We got used to it and if we really want to pay, we will.

  • by estaseuropano on 5/10/21, 9:18 PM

    Consumer protection legislation protecting consumers. I don't see the issue.

    > Since many consumers are not familiar with the 3DS process, there is a higher chance of abandonment during the authentication process. Users may also choose to abandon a transaction simply because there are additional steps to complete, giving them more time to contemplate their purchase.

    The data here is not really provided so we have no way of verifying they are stating e.g. simply that conversion in Germany went from 80%+ to 40%+ just due to PSD2 requirements to verify identify. 50% of consumers stop their purchase because they have to verify their CC? That seems absurd.

    If the reason as cited above is unfamiliarity this means it is a purely temporary impact. If its birthing issues of implementation that too should be temporary. If consumers stop their biy due to reflection or realising that they don't trust the shop that too is a good thing.

  • by WesolyKubeczek on 5/10/21, 9:04 PM

    Then make your service compelling enough for me to go through the motions of confirming the payment in my banking app.

    Or integrate with Android Pay/Apple Pay.

    Cry me a river, but I rather prefer to be in control about who gets to withdraw money from my card, and how much.

  • by codethief on 5/10/21, 9:13 PM

    I absolutely hate 3DS, for two reasons:

    1) I now have to do the 3DS procedure for amounts as small as 1,80€

    2) My bank's 3DS "website" requires me to enter my online banking PIN (the one for my entire account, not just my credit card PIN!) and since that website gets opened in an Android WebView I can't even be sure that the app invoking the WebView doesn't actually obtain my PIN through a key logger. Fantastic.

  • by vineyardmike on 5/10/21, 9:03 PM

    Very interesting to hear about the impact of this regulation on industries many here work in but I have many questions that were answered…

    What is PSD2?

    What is 3DS?

    Why do these exist and what did they solve?

    Edit: Thanks for the responses everyone!

  • by globile on 5/10/21, 9:15 PM

    We developed an internal 3DS attempt strategy to try to remedy this [0], but it is not ideal.

    Basically, try 3DS (with no authentication), then try regular charge (NON 3DS), then if all else fails try a full 3DS charge. You'd be surprised by the disparity, especially internationally, and we do recoup some charges at the expense of triggering some unintended blockage.

    When asking our provider (Stripe in our case) about the best strategy for this, it always comes down to , "Let SCA (Strong Customer Auth) rules and logic handle everything", but this simply doesn't work well.

    I really wish the likes of Adyen, Stripe, etc...would help out with better decline ratio strategies.

    I think we are all plagued by "do_not_honor" and "transaction_not_allowed" codes that do little to move us in any direction...

    [0] https://medium.com/@globile/using-stripe-to-sell-internation...

    EDIT: Fixed the order of actions...

  • by unilynx on 5/10/21, 9:12 PM

    How many of these 3DS failures switch to an alternative payment method?

    A drop in EU e-commerce sales between 20% and 50% would be big news we wouldn't have missed, so where are these sales going ? Or are these transactions still a tiny bit of the overall e-commerce value? If users opt for a cheaper (and not easily clawed back) payment method because they can't complete the 3DS challenge, the merchants may still win.

  • by ballenf on 5/10/21, 9:30 PM

    Kind of a side point, but I think it could be argued that some transaction friction is a good thing at a societal level. (So long as the friction is agnostic to demographic or income level.)

    My spending, consumption and general wasteful consumerism is healthier when I don't have Amazon Prime. I'm more thoughtful about what I need and will batch up purchases, often removing a portion of the cart.

  • by thegeomaster on 5/10/21, 9:25 PM

    >Users may also choose to abandon a transaction simply because there are additional steps to complete, giving them more time to contemplate their purchase.

    Good. Means you've manipulated people into spending their money very intensely if they will abandon the transaction once the first rational thought comes in. I would personally add a third factor for good measure.

  • by ojagodzinski on 5/10/21, 9:16 PM

    In Poland we have something called "Blik" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blik) state of the art internet payment system. https://blik.com/en Sadly it has to be supported by bank (to be specific their mobile app) so not usable by all EU customers. But since it is also operated by banks (they share cost of IT infrastructure) commission is much lower than Visa/MasterCard and milion times easier to use.

    In 2020 Blik had 7 million users and processed 424 million transactions. In 2019, the number of Blik transactions exceeded the number of transactions made on the Polish Internet with payment cards.

    In PSD2/3DS world paying with card is real pain in the ass, only advantage is transaction insurance and chargeback.

  • by Merem on 5/10/21, 10:33 PM

    Don't have a mobile phone, so I guess I would count towards those numbers. A shop branch I used to buy at had 3-D Secure for years but after asking nicely, they disabled that authentification for me. However, ever since they merged with the main website earlier this year, it's no longer possible. So theoretically, it would be impossible for me to buy anything anymore...if not for the fact that they now allow you to buy "points" via PayPal with which you can then buy products in the shop. It's more complicated, takes longer and has other disadvantages (such as not buying the products directly) but for now, it works. Other websites which don't have such a workaround will simply end up with an "abandonment".
  • by WheelsAtLarge on 5/10/21, 10:12 PM

    There's always going to be a decline in sales when new friction is added to a process. But, as people get used to the process those sales come back. The idea that nothing can change because it will hurt sales is short sighted. It leads to a stagnated system where competition will beat you out of existence.

    PSD2 is a process that's system wide and needed so if things need to change this is the best way to do it where everyone takes the hit together as a way to move forward.

  • by rokkk on 5/12/21, 7:13 AM

    So, some clarifications..

    This is not my article, I just found it when searching for any data on the subject. I'm aware of the article author's bias on the subject.

    We run a B2B SaaS and 20% is the drop we've seen (comparing to monthly numbers of the last 5 years). This still needs to be analyzed better but it's taking time due to our messy system of multiple carts using different payment service providers.

    Personally as an EU citizen I'm very in favor in these changes. I think the UX will become even more of a differentiator for banks and related products which is great. Banks FINALLY being forced to open APIs is also great for the fintech industry, so I'm not bitter at all. Just curious to see what other SaaS businesses have seen in their Euro traffic.

  • by RicoElectrico on 5/10/21, 9:14 PM

    Meanwhile in Poland I use BLIK [1]. Simple and reasonably secure, the downside being no chargeback facility.

    The bonus is that Przelewy24 is often presented as a payment option in global shops like Steam or AliExpress, so I can use it there as well.

    [1] https://blik.com/en

  • by kristofferR on 5/10/21, 9:05 PM

    I'm really glad my bank got FaceID 3DS right as PSD2 were introduced, it's really quite painless to do the 2FA (just tap the notification, look at your phone and put it back).

    Previously you had to use an ancient SMS based SIM app on your phone or use a dongle to authenticate, took over a minute usually.

    A way for retailers to "bypass" 3DS is to use Klarna or similar (free in-app invoice that needs to be paid within 14 days). Even though it's usually quite simple to use my debit card, it's still more of a hassle than paying whenever I want within 14 days, so that's what I choose when I'm in a hurry.

  • by willeh on 5/10/21, 9:03 PM

    Purely anecdotal but I have never had any problems with increased authentication for purchases. It feels safe to digitally sign every single purchase I make and with a good UX on the store front it can be a great experience.
  • by Jiocus on 5/10/21, 9:46 PM

    Doesn't sound too strange considering it's a change consumers need to adjust to, maybe set up proper 2FA. Just give it some time, if that's the case. Another way to see it, is that 3-D Secure works, but they don't want to see it that way.

    From the tone of the article, I imagine the author was resisting 3-D Secure from the beginning and settled their minds already and so, they will only see their own negativity reflected back on them when trying to make sense of it.

  • by cabirum on 5/10/21, 10:25 PM

    3DS is a type of 2FA that makes stolen card credentials harder to use. It does not replace but augments existing antifraud techniques.

    3DS is merely a positive marker for antifraud system. This means a 3ds transaction is less likely to trigger antifraud rejection, and antifraud declines are the reason for user abandonment - you can't simply retry a payment attempt in that case.

  • by foepys on 5/10/21, 9:00 PM

    I had my first encounter with a PSD2 measure the other day. It was very straightforward with my bank. The shop redirected me to my bank's website where I logged in with MFA and clicked OK. Done.

    A subsequent order worked by just entering my CC details.

  • by gray_-_wolf on 5/10/21, 10:40 PM

    > Users may also choose to abandon a transaction simply because there are additional steps to complete, giving them more time to contemplate their purchase.

    Why is it a bad thing that people have more time to think about things?

  • by the_mitsuhiko on 5/10/21, 9:16 PM

    On the other hand PSD2 improved the quality of 2FA flows tremendously. I can now use face id to approve creditcard transactions where previously I had to go through an awkward text based flow.
  • by opheliate on 5/10/21, 9:24 PM

    Should the title of this submission be changed? It’s not the title of the original article, and the author doesn’t even seem to run a SaaS, it seems like it might be the experience of the OP?
  • by hnarn on 5/10/21, 9:33 PM

    What's the alternative? As a customer, I find the idea of loosening transactional security for the benefit of companies mildly nauseating.
  • by aza05001 on 5/10/21, 9:01 PM

    what is PSD2?
  • by underyx on 5/10/21, 9:04 PM

    This sounds wonderful to me. 20% of would-be buyers were saved from mindlessly consuming and paying for stuff they don't need — by just a tiny little UI friction. Imagine what a mandatory essay about the reason for your purchase would accomplish.
  • by xbar on 5/10/21, 9:36 PM

    Does the EU regulatory environment lead in onerousness or is it working well?