from Hacker News

Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

by sleepyshift on 5/1/21, 8:38 PM with 210 comments

  • by obviouslynotme on 5/1/21, 8:57 PM

    I don't want my car to be a software platform. I want it to be like my microwave. It might have software, but software is only incidental to its operation. I do not want to tweet from my microwave. I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone.

    I don't care what I have to do to attain that. If that means replacing the radio. I will do it. If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio, I will go rebuild some grandfathered antique car.

  • by alwayshumans on 5/1/21, 9:16 PM

    This just feels like the latest in a long line of industries trying to build a recurring revenue model fueled by greed.

    Looking at the uproar from moves by Circut[1] and others makes me question how out of touch some of these companies are.

    I think companies need to realise a subscription needs to deliver constant tangible value to the consumer.

    1.https://connpirg.org/blogs/blog/usp/angry-crafting-moms-blow...

  • by crooked-v on 5/1/21, 9:10 PM

    Tesla's already doing this: https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/23/tesla-removing-content-f...

    > The dealer, United Traders, bought the car directly from Tesla at an auction on November 15, 2019. At the time of that auction sale, the Model S had Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self Driving Capability options installed, which the original owner had paid a combined $8,000 for, as listed on the Monroney that Tesla gave the dealer. On November 18, Tesla ran an audit of the software in its vehicles, including the Model S now owned by the dealership, and removed Enhanced Autopilot. The automaker did not inform the dealer of the changes to the Model S, so the dealer sold the sedan to Alec on December 20 believing the car contained what was on the Monroney.

  • by fouric on 5/1/21, 9:02 PM

    This is very, very bad.

    Music and TV subscriptions? Not great (I want to buy something once and own it), but at least those are luxury purchases.

    Cars? Not ok - that's critical for me (and many others) to get to my job (bad public transit in the area), groceries, etc.

    > “You can easily see a major backlash to all this,” said Gartner analyst Michael Ramsay.

    I wonder how one can maximize that potential backlash, so as to cut this terrible idea off as soon as possible.

  • by michalu on 5/2/21, 7:27 AM

    A friend of mine bought new BMW and the whole thing just shut down half way into the journey, he said he was happy he could get out of it. The more complexity the higher the chance of failure.

    If you're like me you just want a car that get's you from point A to point B reliably and safely. You're probably thinking they will always be an option for a straightforward mechanical machine.

    But that may not be the case. Regulators are increasing demands for more and more electronics and a lot of that is driven (I assume) by car industry lobby.

    Essentially, the best thing a car industry can achieve is to turn your car into a computer or iphone. This way they can release new models every year and increase the the pressure to buy more.

    Right now a 20yo car is still good to drive around and not that much has improved, but what are you going to do it the new software update is no longer compatible with your car? :)

    And obviously, more higher complexity.higher failure means more profits on component sales.

  • by thesuperbigfrog on 5/1/21, 9:01 PM

    It is only a matter of time before there are jailbreaks and free / open source car operating systems.

    For related 'food for thought', see Cory Doctorow's "Car Wars" which combines car software hacking with self-driving vehicles for a unique near-future sci-fi story.

    Edit: downvotes? Instead, you could respond with why you disagree and we can have a discussion.

    Do you think there will not be jailbreaks? It has been happening with John Deere tractors: https://www.vice.com/en/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmers-...

  • by kwyjobojoe on 5/2/21, 12:14 AM

    Can't wait for the deaths during bushfires when the phone network is down but your car won't start because it's time to check the licensing server.

    There have already been examples where hire cars are stuck in parking garages because of no signal to reach their servers.

  • by eikenberry on 5/1/21, 9:15 PM

    IMO the right to repair movement is our best defense against this sort of rent seeking. You can't repair and maintain anything yourself if a subscription is required.

  • by apatheticonion on 5/2/21, 6:47 AM

    Living in a city and having street-parked "rent-a-car" vehicles for infrequent trips while using trains to get to work is an incredible lifestyle.

    I went camping recently, so I rented a 4x4 for a few days. I needed to pick up family from the airport, I'll just rent a car for a few hours. Want to go for a hike up north, rent a car for a day.

    All I have to do is Lime-style, book one on the app, tap my car on the windshield to unlock and it's mine.

    Parking? No problem, the government has designated parking spots for rideshare vehicles.

    It could be cheaper, but with my frequency of use, it's cheaper than owning a car.

  • by whoisthemachine on 5/1/21, 9:02 PM

    For what it's worth, my 2012 Chevy Volt had a subscription plan for starting my car via a phone app. So the subscription model has already been present for some years. What will be offered via subscription will drastically change however.

  • by livinginfear on 5/2/21, 8:24 AM

    I'm finding it increasingly difficult to avoid purchasing, and therefore tying myself to, 'connected' platforms. I recently decided to purchase a new washing machine. It was difficult to find one that did not feature some form of wireless connectivity. I know from other discussions on this forum around so-called 'smart' televisions[1][2] that simply not connecting the device to your home wi-fi network, or implementing DNS filtering measures such as a PiHole, may not be effective ways to restrict the access of these devices. Not to mention the various security implications of giving these devices access to your network.

    The idea of a car having the same connectivity is just a minefield of privacy, security and generally anti-consumer issues. I am not optimistic either that pushback against such concerns will force manufacturers to amend these practices.

    [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25934286 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25313480

  • by teeray on 5/1/21, 9:30 PM

    I just want a dumb radio with wireless CarPlay. I want to bring the smarts to the car. It shouldn’t have smarts of its own.

  • by at_a_remove on 5/2/21, 7:42 AM

    You think this is interesting, wait until the CEO of your car subscription company wakes up in a bad mood and decides to "cancel" your car. That whole "In the future, you will own nothing and you will be happy" thing is going to keep you gloriously in-line and silent when not.

  • by olivermarks on 5/2/21, 4:57 AM

    Now is the right time to buy a pre internet car and relevant consumables (belts, alternator, starter etc) of your choice before this becomes an issue. So long as you keep the suspension in good shape, and maintain the drive train properly you will be in good shape to avoid the rentier surveillance culture looming.

  • by GoOnThenDoTell on 5/2/21, 7:18 AM

    1000% don’t want a car subscription, that’s called a lease.

  • by metalman on 5/1/21, 9:30 PM

    I de-computered my older mechanical diesel,led lights all round,modifications to the wireing and removed the alternator and added solar panels. And there are no beeps in my house, mostly older equipment. Also have managed my online life by going wireless with two phones,#1 has lots of data and is de-guggled doesnt send or recieve texts and has no social media,etc. #2 has no data and is wide open ,accessing the internet by wifi from phone number 1 The idea of a car that beeps and wimpers and whines for handouts gives me the cold grue and shudders.

  • by marcodiego on 5/1/21, 9:00 PM

    You don't own your cellphone, you don't own your tv and now you won't own your car too.

  • by slackfan on 5/1/21, 9:07 PM

    "You will own nothing and be happy"

  • by mk89 on 5/2/21, 9:55 AM

    Imagine the fun when you give gas and the display shows that your subscription can only reach 100km/h, if you want to go faster, please subscribe to the PRO subscription :)

    This is/was inevitable. I really think that we will be able to buy a car whose basic features can be locked/unlocked on subscription, and I am not talking about fancy features, but basic ones like speed, types of brakes, etc. It might not be a bad idea to reduce the price of a car considering you produce only one type and customize it at "runtime". And BTW, it's somehow already the case. I bought a Ford with 100 HP and the seller told me that with "some external help" I can get up to 125HP because the engine is the same as the one for the 125HP model. I was like "what the hell?". Of course the downside is that if you get into a bad accident and the insurance finds out, you're on your own. But that's another story.

    A pay as you go model would also be fun. The more you press the pedals the more you pay:)

  • by Dah00n on 5/2/21, 12:50 AM

    Software updates require approval in the EU just like hardware changes if it significantly changes the car. Tesla is already on thin (or rather close to nonexistent) ice by just updating. This won't be allowed in the EU unless new laws are made (and I personally doubt it will be allowed and good riddance!).

  • by mensetmanusman on 5/1/21, 9:07 PM

    We will rent everything, and we will love it.

    https://medium.com/illumination/in-2030-youll-own-nothing-an...

  • by agumonkey on 5/1/21, 9:10 PM

    Smartphone already brought a kind of connection burden, now transport is next.. sociologically it's super weird.

    Can't wait to submit my new business idea to the next YC round: selling isolation.

  • by SuchAnonMuchWow on 5/2/21, 6:22 AM

    Tangentially: does anybody knows good dumb all-electric cars ?

  • by bob1029 on 5/2/21, 1:51 PM

    Cars have been a software platform for well over a decade. We've been cursed with horrendous UX, such as the electronic throttle body and steering, since the late 2000s.

    Every time someone puts a computer between the user and the real world is an opportunity to extract more control and revenue from the user. The incentives to make your life experience shitty are far in excess of the incentives to make it enjoyable.

  • by amelius on 5/2/21, 8:29 AM

    "Tesla is updating your software. Please don't stop the car while your software update is in progress."

  • by pabs3 on 5/2/21, 9:30 AM

    So when will we get a car running a user-installed open source operating system like postmarketOS for smartphones?

  • by cblconfederate on 5/1/21, 9:04 PM

    Wait till you see the NFT licence numbers.

    I'd actually prefer a leased EV. Battery degrades, customization is impossible and privacy is not very relevant, so why own it if they re going to stuff it with in-app-purchases? The EVs worth owning will be custom made/converted cars.

  • by gnicholas on 5/2/21, 3:34 AM

    I hate subscriptions as much as the next guy, but I also see the flip side of this coin: the legacy auto companies don't have OTA updates, and this affects their incentives in negative ways.

    I have considered getting a Subaru Outback, a Toyota RAV4, and a Honda CR-V. All of them have 'lane-centering' features, but none of them are good at present. And none of the companies say that they will allow OTA (or any other periodic) updates, even though presumably it would be possible to improve performance without upgrading the hardware.

    Why do they do this? Because their business model is to keep selling/leasing new cars. They don't want you to have the newest tech on your older car.

    If they had subscriptions for features like these, it would give them a different incentive, which could be good in some cases. It might still be bad on balance (like if they charged huge amounts for these features), but there could be some significant upsides.

  • by cinntaile on 5/1/21, 11:31 PM

    This future is already starting to play out in certain countries in Europe. Total Car Ownership is quite a bit more expensive than in the US and for people living in a city this seems like a fairly obvious cause and effect development.

  • by rektide on 5/1/21, 11:23 PM

    still super super super wondering what we do with Android Auto in 4 years, in 5 years.

    will car manufacturer's have replacement brains, such that the car can get security updates?

    will we just keep running Linux 4.12 in the year 2038?

  • by analog31 on 5/2/21, 3:06 AM

    I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I certainly don't want to be held hostage by my car.

    On the other hand, a pricing model that makes the sale price cheaper and loads more of the profit into optional add-ons is great for me. So long as I can get from A to B, I'm happy with zero options and a cheaper car.

    My family recently got a new car, and as part of the sale, the dealer activated trial subscriptions for all sorts of things, blah blah this, blah blah that. I don't even remember.

    I do like some of the software features, but they're the ones that are not by subscription, such as the thing that keeps me from driving off a cliff. I'm not getting any younger, and don't mind a little bit of help.

  • by sebyx07 on 5/2/21, 5:46 AM

    Remember when you didn't have to crack your car to drive it?

  • by okareaman on 5/1/21, 9:35 PM

    People buy apps and pay for upgrades to extend the capabilities of their phones. I don't see how this is different. Maybe they should just call them apps for cars.

  • by rkhassen9 on 5/2/21, 5:04 PM

    When are we going to create a world we actually want to live in, rather than one that profits a tiny minority at the expense of .... life?

  • by chiefalchemist on 5/1/21, 9:28 PM

    My car? I no longer want to own and maintain a car. I want ubiquitous availability of transportation. On demand. But I don't necessarily want Uber / Lyft either. I don't mind driving.

    As it is, my car lost value the day I drove it off the lot. Most of the time it sits doing nothing at all, sans getting older and losing more value.

    If ever there was a life pain that screams subscription + pay as you go it's personal transportation.

  • by neonate on 5/2/21, 2:38 AM

  • by mgarfias on 5/1/21, 9:17 PM

    Time to buy a ‘72 travel all.

  • by tibbydudeza on 5/1/21, 10:52 PM

    To unlock the fuel efficent 6th gear - pay us x $$$ per month.

  • by jti107 on 5/1/21, 9:13 PM

    if this is the case its not going to end well for them.

  • by anfilt on 5/1/21, 11:11 PM

    How about big NO!

  • by dartharva on 5/2/21, 3:17 AM

    So you have to keep paying regular subscription fees to use the full capabilities of your car? LOL sure, I can totally see how that's going to work out.

    First off, the companies daft enough to try this without enough subtlety would get quickly knocked off the market, and if it doesn't naturally die out, expect a huge Jailbreaking community to arise in the near future. Either way paywalling critical utilities from a car will never work.

  • by stunt on 5/2/21, 12:53 PM

    Thanks, but no thanks.

  • by rkhassen9 on 5/2/21, 5:02 PM

    Noooooooooo

  • by rkhassen9 on 5/2/21, 5:02 PM

    Nooooooo

  • by 0xB31B1B on 5/1/21, 9:26 PM

    I think its totally fine for a car maker to charge for OTA updates in a Saas/subscription model. The reality is that software requires long term maintenance and charging subscriptions is the only way to get a lot of the features to work out for the life time of the car. What I am NOT ok with is charging for normal things that do not need to be OTA updated or are not upgrades, like apple carplay (the example in the article). The way I see this working out is that if I buy a MY 2021 car, I should not have to pay a subscription to maintain the features I bought it with, but if I then want upgrades in subsequent model years, I should pay a monthly fee for those upgrades.