from Hacker News

Money corrupts; bitcoin corrupts absolutely

by Priem19 on 3/13/21, 4:49 PM with 141 comments

• by wbobeirne on 3/13/21, 6:03 PM

  This article has some substance to it that is worth discussion, but I feel it's value is greatly diminished by the sheer amount of ad hominem in it. Don't buy Bitcoin because Michael Saylor and Elon Musk also own some? That's terrible advice. The USD is also owned by terrible people, and is used to fund terrible things.

  I agree with the author that many people rationalize or fall into some of the standard Bitcoin beliefs to justify their desire to get rich, but to project their own case of that on all Bitcoin enthusiasts is completely unfair. Some of the smartest engineers I know work on Bitcoin, and don't see a paycheck for it. The availability of grants for Bitcoin open source work is pretty new, and many of these people have been working on BTC long before there was a strong financial incentive. The real money-motivated play for them would have been to fall into a FAANG and collect a guaranteed high salary.

• by fullshark on 3/13/21, 5:54 PM

  The NFT fad has definitely turned me off as it seems totally bonkers, also the fact that the problem BTC is supposedly solving constantly changes based on whatever gets people to put money into it.

  Add to this exchanges / tether printing manipulating the price and i'm pretty bearish on BTC and crypto right now, seems like the only problem they are trying to solve is "how can I become ludicrously rich by writing some code from scratch."

  But what if I'm wrong?....

• by peter422 on 3/13/21, 5:47 PM

  I have thought about this with Bitcoin: if the protocol and potential capabilities are so interesting, why is 99% of the conversation related to Bitcoin about the current price. It does make me believe that greed is the predominant driver of most Bitcoin holders, which to me makes the whole concept a lot less principled than people pretend it is.

• by randomsearch on 3/13/21, 6:40 PM

  Ok I’ve been reading about BTC and I’m finally falling into the “it’s a terrible idea” camp.

  Here are the problems I’m concerned about. If Bitcoin supporters want to defend it, please could you explain why:

  1. A scaling proof of work is not environmentally disastrous. The “renewable energy” argument doesn’t make sense, I think, and existing financial systems seem to be more energy efficient, but open to other counter arguments.

  2. A decentralised ledger which concentrates initial supply amongst a tiny fraction of the world’s population would be a good idea and somehow preferable to the current situation.

  Finally, please explain whether Bitcoin is a currency (like the dollar) or a store of value (like gold). If it’s a currency, please explain how it can be used as such when transactions are slow and expensive. If it’s a store of value, please explain why the fact that gold is physically useful and in strictly finite supply (on earth) compared to crypto currencies (in general), does not matter.

• by dastx on 3/13/21, 6:08 PM

  Bitcoin isn't claiming that it takes corruption out of the human psyche. Corrupt people stay corrupt. All bitcoin does is take unfounded trust away from individual organisations and governments, and instead puts that trust in maths and the collective. It never claimed that it will combat corruption, and likely never will.

  NFTs are definitely switching me off from cryptocurrencies as I find the use of it ridiculous. Sure there are _some_ genuine use cases, but so far it's just been terrible, and does not fill me with confidence. Time will tell if NFTs are gonna become anything that's not silliness among the rich.

• by vesinisa on 3/13/21, 7:38 PM

  It's really sad that his story got flagged. I think it's a reasonable and well-argued opinion piece, and I can only assume it got flagged because some users vigorously disagree with the opinion. @mods any input?

• by oliv__ on 3/13/21, 5:55 PM

  Money doesn't corrupt, it simply reveals character

• by david927 on 3/13/21, 5:42 PM

  I think the author needs to integrate into these arguments the Nixon Shock of 1971 and what’s happening with inflation in the US since 2008. There’s a reason the Dow just hit a record high and it’s not because the fundamentals of those firms are strong.

  I’m not a Bitcoin holder but the correct finger pointing here is at monetary policy.

• by Aunche on 3/13/21, 6:11 PM

  I agree with most of this article except the part about fractional reserve banking. All fractional reserve banking means is that banks are allowed to loan out their customer's money. People have known this to be more economically efficient since the Middle Ages. If you're not using your money, it's better in the hands of someone actively using it to conduct a commercial transaction.

  Without a central bank to print out money, it's unlikely for there ever to be a fractional reserve banking system in Bitcoin. Any large scale bitcoin bank exit event would completely crash the bitcoin economy.

• by timdaub on 3/13/21, 5:42 PM

  Ok, this seems to be a well-thought out argument against Bitcoin. I'm happy to buy into it. Yes, maybe BTC corrupts people.

  But then without proper digital money protocols, how are we supposed to build the next wave of web applications?

  Ethereum can be used to do useful things. E.g. we're rating data sets by quality through staking [1]. NFTs seem to make sense for artists (see what Mike Shinoda from Linkin Park said) [2]. Those products are simply not possible without projects like Ethereum.

  1: https://rugpullindex.com

  2: https://mobile.twitter.com/mikeshinoda/status/13580909764142...

• by machinelabo on 3/13/21, 5:39 PM

  We need to fix the loop holes. Money is also an amazing instrument that keeps us motivated. Without the lure of money and its power, we wouldn’t do anything. Startups? Why bother when there is no money involved.

  I really think if there was one thing we got right - that’s money as a civilization. What we need to do is fix the loop holes. That includes taxes, corporation as persons, the whole 2011 movement of Occupy Wall Street.

• by wolfretcrap on 3/13/21, 5:42 PM

  Problem with bitcoin is there's no way to redistribute wealth.

  How about giving inactive bitcoins to new people? Is it possible? Can you really access the bitcoins that were created at the beginning without updating your bitcoins to latest standards. How do you even update your bitcoin?

• by wturner on 3/13/21, 5:39 PM

  "Relieving humans from having to worry about or deal with money would be an actual Copernican revolution. How that would work is beyond me, but that's precisely why it would be revolutionary."

  This

• by zozin on 3/13/21, 5:50 PM

  Greed isn't good or bad, it just is. It's a known variable. Greed makes something that's very complicated (human behavior) simpler to understand.

• by drcode on 3/13/21, 5:42 PM

  I agree with OP that all the honking horns from automobiles can be a drag, but the manure left from the horses also had some downsides.

• by seibelj on 3/13/21, 5:46 PM

  > and lastly, it having a multitude of popular proponents with extreme viewpoints such as “animals have no rights”, or the right to bear arms which strikes me as vile, unethical, and borderline insane

  The right to bear arms is an extreme right wing viewpoint? This is quite the rant but the author is all over the map

• by gnrlst on 3/13/21, 5:48 PM

  The community around Bitcoin is one of the most toxic. It's the main reason I haven't bought, and won't buy, any BTC (regardless of the fact I think the tech is completely subpar). Having said that, there's plenty of really great communities around crypto that shouldn't be pooled together along with Bitcoin. Nano, for example, is probably the most hated altcoin by Bitcoin maximalists (probably because they feel threatened?) and coincidently is one of the most tight-knit and constructive communities I found (don't take my word for it, check out the nanocurrency subreddit). There's tons of developers sharing their projects, users tipping all over the place like the good 'ol BTC days, people brainstorming ways of dropping Nano in places where the local currency is in hyperinflation via WeNano. It's just a really cool bunch of peeps.

  I frankly don't care if the price of Nano plummets to 1 cent. And I actually hope it doesn't skyrocket and get the attention BTC got, because, to quote the article, "I came for the money", but I stayed for the community. The tech being superior to Bitcoin is just a bonus.

• by matheusmoreira on 3/13/21, 5:46 PM

  > Have I been salty? Definitely. There's no point in denying that. I could've purchased a home had I been in a coma until now.

  That about sums it all up. I too watched the rise of bitcoin and was too lazy to mine some on my own computer. I have screenshots of people buying pizza for like 20 BTC.

  All we had to do was buy some. We can still do it.

  > If I'd have deserved it is something else.

  Does it matter if you "deserved" it? So many literal sociopaths are running the world and getting rich by exploiting everyone else. Did they deserve it? Does a lottery winner deserve their gains?

  Better to throw out all these notions and just start playing the game. Anything else means being exploited as well.

• by DaniloDias on 3/13/21, 5:49 PM

  This is a weird, angry screed.

  Op should read The Ascent of Money and maybe worry less about the moral failings of other humans.

  Peace and trust cannot exist without currency. Money lubricates peaceful resolution of conflict.

  If you need food and I have it, trade or violence are your only options if currency doesn’t exist.

  Screaming at Bitcoin is like screaming at evolution. As long as humans evolve, money will keep pace.

• by nemo44x on 3/13/21, 5:57 PM

  The price of BTC must be going up since we are seeing these sour grapes stories on the front page again.

  An NFT sold for 69 million the other day. Crypto is here to stay. It’s time to rethink the critical analysis of crypto.

  What percentage of stimulus checks are going to be spent on BTC?