from Hacker News

The unusual ways Western parents raise children

by elijahparker on 2/24/21, 12:39 PM with 645 comments

by gdubs on 2/24/21, 4:15 PM
One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it.
We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.) This article calls it an ‘extreme’ practice. For us, ‘extreme’ was the sleep deprivation we experienced with baby number one as we tried every ‘no cry’ method in the book. The baby cried and cried and cried. Once we started sleep training, there was a bit of crying and then - a sleeping baby! Through the night! Total amount of crying went from hours to zero. The kid became happier — they weren’t sleep-deprived anymore. And neither were we. I no longer felt like I was going to drop the ball due to extreme exhaustion.
Babies two and three had the benefit of our experience, and they barely cried at all. The third one would lay down eyes-open and fall asleep. “So it actually does happen! — I thought the books must be lying.”
By all objective measures our kids are happy, healthy, and well-adjusted. But that doesn’t mean we still don’t get the stink eye from people who think it’s a cruel practice.
Just raise your kids with love. Be compassionate, and patient. Find a doctor you trust. Don’t let people add to an already stressful endeavor.
by alistairSH on 2/24/21, 2:33 PM
Of all the "weird" things we do as parents in euro/anglo nations, sleeping arrangements seems nowhere near the top.
IMO, the top "offender" is over-scheduling kid's activities. So many kids in my area have their days booked solid with sports, academic tutoring, music lessons. Approaching zero free time to enjoy being a kid.
Edit - and this isn't really a western thing, "Tiger Mom" and similar probably pre-dates this behavior in the US.
by llimos on 2/24/21, 6:00 PM
Speaking as a parent of 5. Parental mental health has a much bigger effect on the child than choice of methodologies. You really need to look after yourself before you can look after them - so if you are suffering from sleep deprivation, doing what you have to do is the right thing to do.
Put your own oxygen mask on first.
by gumby on 2/24/21, 7:26 PM
As a parent myself I have only one piece of child rearing advice.
First: Read a bunch of books (which will contradict each other)
Then: a) do what you think is right and b) when someone tells you to do X (especially, but not only your mother or mother in law), if you disagree just say "Funny you should say that because I just read the exact opposite" and hand them a random baby rearing book.
This sounds like a joke but the biggest problem in child rearing is well meaning busybodies and we figured out this effective way to shut it down. (Busybodies who were strangers we just smiled at and ignored).
by dfxm12 on 2/24/21, 2:29 PM
As I reach the age where some of my friends are starting to have kids in a Western country, one thing I've noticed is that they all seem to have different ideas about raising kids, between diets, sleeping habits, baby bjorns, what language(s) to read to them in, how to get them to walk/talk, etc. I wouldn't call any of them weird (although I honestly don't have much of a baseline understanding), but I have a hard time figuring out how exactly you can generalize a Western way of raising kids.
by Aunche on 2/24/21, 6:25 PM
One thing that I find weird about the Western (perhaps just American) way of raising kids is that the retired population is surprisingly uninvolved in the raising of their grandchildren. It seems like an economic inefficiency when parents are spending so much money on childcare while old people are feeling increasingly lonely.
by dlisboa on 2/24/21, 3:16 PM
Outside of neglect and abuse, is there really a WRONG way of raising a child?
You see multiple different styles in different cultures. Some cultures where bed-sharing and baby-carrying is common also beat their kids and use other forms of punishment for disobedience. Wouldn't that be much "weirder"? It seems in Europe breastfeeding rates are really low and people use prams, but they might not beat the child as much (or at all). Is that the wrong way?
It seems to me people who are loved and cared for as children are raised and generally become well-adjusted and happy individuals. I fear parents are being constantly judged now for not doing the latest thing that some research found, the latest fad that may or may not have a tiny effect on the child's life itself. It probably gives people a lot of anxiety that they might be doing something terribly wrong for the child for not having the right crib height, or not sleeping in the same bed, or not playing Mozart at the right time or whatever.
by itsmemattchung on 2/24/21, 2:28 PM
Definitely something that my wife and I struggle with. She's Vietnamese British, I'm Vietnamese American ; both of us current living in the U.S. Despite what our training classes recommend, we're co-sleeping with our 17 month year old daughter and it feels more intuitive.
by diegocg on 2/24/21, 2:31 PM
>A 2016 review that looked at research on children sharing not just a room but a bed with one or more of their parents found a high prevalence in many Asian countries:
Let me guess: there is a high correlation between sharing your room and poverty levels?
by nineplay on 2/24/21, 3:53 PM
"Parents in <X> are better parents than you" is a real crowd pleaser when it comes to a chance to explain why your <personal pet peeve about modern parenting> has just been Validated by Science.
Someone once said that there is no more a right way to 'parent' than there is a right way to 'spouse' or 'child'. Everyone is different, every relationship is different. When I give advice to new parents, I tell them exactly that. Their relationship with their kid is going to be specific to them and their kid, and don't feel pressured to do things the 'right' way by an external source.
by hackitup7 on 2/24/21, 6:22 PM
I highly recommend the book Cribsheet on this topic (https://www.amazon.com/Cribsheet-Data-Driven-Relaxed-Parenti...). The author is an economist at Brown and applies research techniques to determine where there are causal relationships between parental behavior and child outcomes.
For example, she looks into the research behind breastfeeding vs formula – a very hot topic where I already see the pitchforks coming out in this thread. Her conclusion if I'm recalling correctly is that there are only relatively minor direct benefits to breast milk over formula. But there are significant benefits to being the type of parent that is intense + dedicated enough to breast feed despite how unpleasant many mothers find it to be, and that dedication explains why studies turn up larger differences in outcomes between breastfed vs formula fed babies (it's just correlation vs causation).
by cloudc0de on 2/24/21, 4:43 PM
> For her part, Kuroda co-slept with her four children as a way to adapt to being away from them during the day. "I'm working full time and if I separate the whole night, it's really minimal time for the baby. We can intensely communicate, even in the nighttime. It’s real communication and time together."
IMO the rise in attachment parenting methods stems from the high rate of mothers working full-time outside the home, feeling guilty about being away from their children all day and "missing out" on developmental milestones, or feeling guilty about a minimum wage daycare worker spending more waking hours with their children than they do, and trying to 'make up' for this lost time with co-sleeping and other attachment methods.
I view this parenting style as a sort of pathological paternalism, it's presented as being in the child's best interest, when in reality it's a psychological need of (usually) the mother. Babies need lots and lots of high-quality, restful sleep, and the families that seem to be dealing with serious sleep deprivation issues for both parent and baby are usually in the attachment camp.
by agent008t on 2/24/21, 2:22 PM
Western = Anglophone? I suspect cultural norms are quite different in Italy, Greece, Spain and other countries.
by kkwteh on 2/24/21, 2:38 PM
From the perspective of the Lindy principle it is weird.
I have an eighteen-month old child and have been reading a lot about child rearing since my wife got pregnant.
It’s taboo to say this, and I’m sorry if this offends anyone, but I suspect that a lack of adult attention in the first three years of life is a principal factor in the rising autism rates we’re seeing in modern economies. This would explain why autism seems to “cluster” in upper class homes, where the parents work nonstop.
It turns out this hypothesis was put forth by Kanner in the 50’s and is as old as autism itself, but it was rejected for political reasons and it is not refuted by the science.
I first heard this hypothesis from the lectures of Gabor Maté, and it makes a lot of sense to me. If you look at what autism treatment actually is, it’s all just play therapy where you give a child attention and teach them that if they bid for an adult’s attention they will respond empathetically. This treatment only makes sense if they didn’t already learn to do this as an infant.
by sgarrity on 2/24/21, 2:42 PM
Yes! As a person raising kids in "the Western way", we ARE weird.
Obviously, this is a broad oversimplification, but I do think the way we manage our kids time and limit their freedom is problematic.
That said, I think many of the problems stem from good intentions and unintended consequences. For example:
1. We don't want our kids to get hit by a car, so we tell them only to play in the back yard. 2. In many homes, both parents want a fulfilling career, so most kids are in some kind of child-care after school, so our kids don't have others to play with in the neighbourood.
by ConfusedDog on 2/24/21, 5:05 PM
I slept with my grandma, mother when I was a child <10. That's because our apartments were super tiny back then in China. It isn't much of a choice.
My son is sleep-trained to sleep alone in his room. At first, he would refuse and cry, and he woke up every once awhile, later he just got use to it and slept 12 hour straight. Not only he slept without any distraction (me), but also it is much easier on me as well.
Important metric I think is whether the baby sleep enough, rather than style of parenting. Sometimes it is just economic factor.
by jokethrowaway on 2/24/21, 2:36 PM
I wonder how much is caused by having both parents working. Kids were raised differently 50-70 years ago when one salary was enough for a family.
by rayiner on 2/24/21, 4:15 PM
I wouldn't call it "weird" but there's certainly advantages and disadvantages. Bed sharing is one area where my wife (American) and I (Asian) have decided to do things the Asian way. By that, I mean I chose to do things the Asian way since I'm the nighttime parent. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210222-the-unusual-ways...
> Debmita Dutta, a doctor and parenting consultant in Bangalore, India, says that despite Western influences, bedsharing remains a strong tradition in India – even in households where children have their own rooms. "A family of four has three bedrooms, one each for each child and for the parents, and then you would find both the children in the parent's bed," she says. "It's that common."
> Bedsharing is one way to reduce the burden of babies waking up at night, says Dutta. Her own daughter had a rollout bed next to her parents' that she could sleep on until she was seven years old. "Even after she stopped breastfeeding, she still liked to sleep with us in the same room," she says.
I gave up on sleep training for precisely that reason. It's super easy for me to feed the baby a bottle and get it back to sleep without even really waking up. But sleep training involved multi-hour sessions in the middle of the night where my daughter would make herself puke, sometimes more than once in the same night, sometimes followed by dry-heaving in protest after her stomach was empty. After a bit she was able to sleep on a sofa-sleeper in our room, which she quickly vacated when our second was born (due to the crying at night). I didn't even try sleep training with our second--I felt so guilty leaving him alone in a crib, with him standing holding the bars like some sort of prisoner.
by sunny--tech on 2/25/21, 2:00 AM
So I've recently become a father and have done a lot of reading into co-sleep, crib, etc out of my own paranoia of being a bad father and such.
I could go on and on about the back and forth. The one thing I do want to say and point out that is many articles like this BBC one use statements like "the rest of the world" or is "common in many other cultures" when discussing co-sleep and other "older" practices.
But what percentage of the world actually practices co-sleeping? While it is indeed common in Asia and Africa, only 40 percent of documented cultures practice co-sleep regularly [1]. So it has become a minority practice in the world at large, despite the fact that many blogs or articles make it seem like Western society is strange for not doing it as much.
So instead of Western society being novel and strange, could it be that we're onto something? Saying "it's always been done this way" isn't a scientific statement. While having babies sleep in cribs is a newer practice, there is still a lot of data backing it.
There is indeed some bad research when it comes to demonizing co-sleeping (equally equating co-sleeping parents who use drugs and alcohol with those who don't). But even when controlled for those variables, it still has been shown that co-sleeping still increases the risk of SIDS when there are no hazards present, although not as much as some studies suggest [1].
As a data driven person, when I read all of this, I opted to not co-sleep. It's just what a lot of data supports, so I don't see why it still gets demonized a lot.
I'm not saying you shouldn't co-sleep. If you like it and want to do it, go for it. But I just don't understand the vilification of Western practices when it's been shown to work in many cases.
1: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/05/21/6012896...
by PebblesRox on 2/24/21, 3:33 PM
I recommend Sweet Sleep as a resource for anyone interested in cosleeping/bedsharing.
It gives a lot of practical advice and looks at the research to address the safety concerns. The conclusion is that bedsharing will multiply existing risk factors for SIDS but if those risk factors are already low, adding bedsharing into the mix does not increase the risk by a significant amount (assuming it's done in accordance with safety guidelines).
https://www.amazon.com/Sweet-Sleep-Nighttime-Strategies-Brea...
by rapsey on 2/24/21, 2:26 PM
Western culture is different in a significant way. Individualism is valued much more than in the east.
This is an established sociological fact.
by Dumblydorr on 2/24/21, 3:52 PM
The only thing I feel certain of is that hitting children or abusing them is a sad unnecessary practice. Adults need the wisdom and sense to handle problems with logic and words. Physical violence is simply bullying and using superior size and strength, which is irrelevant in the modern world and which predisposes your children to violent behaviors.
by gnicholas on 2/24/21, 11:08 PM
Highly recommend the work of economist Emily Oster, [1] who digs into the data around popular/important questions related to pregnancy/childhood.
She looks at the 'popular wisdom' and then analyzes the relevant data. Her goal is to give parents information they can use to make informed choices about relative risk. Should you drink at all while pregnant? Is sleep training terrible (or amazing)?
Dr. Oster gives nuanced answers to questions that are too often addressed as categorical imperatives.
https://emilyoster.net/
by swader999 on 2/24/21, 2:15 PM
We put the crib close to our bed, much easier for mom. Dad got ear plugs.
by renewiltord on 2/24/21, 7:39 PM
Honestly, we're a damned resilient species. This is micro-optimization. Your kids are going to be awesome almost certainly, just like every generation so far has been more capable than the ones before.
The science on this stuff is half-baked. The real evidence is very low. If you took the same standards people hold to something they don't want to happen (let's say legalization of LSD use) and then applied it to most of the papers, they'd fail the test.
by abraxas on 2/25/21, 3:46 AM
I have a nine year old who still gets tucked in every night and I spend half an hour by his bedside every night listening to audiobook stories or just talking about his day.
He was never a good sleeper. Since birth he needed human contact to fall asleep and stay asleep. Perhaps it's a genetic wiring or perhaps it's because wife and I are not believers in "sleep training". Our idea is that kids will loosen these ties on their own terms when ready i.e. when their nervous systems grow mature enough to feel safe sleeping on their own.
Many will scoff at the fact that we have a nine year old who has a sleep routine of a five year old. And yet... he is one of the best performing kids in class, always outgoing, self confident, popular with peers and teachers alike without being an asshole to anyone younger or older.
I'm a parent and I'm never going to judge another. But I think we're doing something right by our kid. But spending all this time by his side is taxing, not gonna lie.
by reader_x on 2/25/21, 4:45 AM
What fascinates me about this topic is the amount of words spent on it, yet the topic of how/when to have conjugal relations with a kid sleeping in the room is never brought up. What is the norm about this in cultures that commonly cosleep? Do they stop having sex? Only get their loving on the fire escape?
by blablaat on 2/26/21, 4:36 AM
In Thailand (and most of Asia I guess) most parents share the bed with their baby up to a few years old or even longer. Mother and child on bed, father on the ground or opposite. Also a matter of available space. But for sure helps the bonding process to stay close to your little one. Sex life will suffer as a result I guess... Most times family is around the child all the time. Group behavior is spoon fed. And I do agree: a separate room for a new born is madness. Mother and child stay together. You see it in the animal kingdom, and that's what we are. Also nothing wrong with a plain mattress on the floor. No falling down risk, no bars, freedom. Be careful with bedding as usual.
by nmridul on 2/24/21, 6:41 PM
Asia and other areas, there is the support from extended families for baby care. At night, there are grand parents / other in laws (brothers sisters) that take turn taking care of baby at night. And during day time too, you can leave babies with them and take proper rest.
by BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 on 2/25/21, 3:45 AM
Infant monkeys cling to their mothers 24x7. Until very recently the vast majority of humans slept in one room huts with the youngest child next to the mother. My kids had their own beds, but slept with me until nine or ten until they decided to prefer their own beds.
by shirro on 2/24/21, 10:39 PM
Many of our civilisation's needs and desires have been created by marketers. Whether it is people selling expensive child care equipment or books promoting fads. You don't need most of that shit. There is some good stuff to know for health and safety but you have to think critically which is hard for a first time parent going into the unknown. We bought a lot of gear that never got used or which turned out to be less effective than simpler means.
by mensetmanusman on 2/25/21, 6:33 PM
It was super stressful trying the crying it out method for our first child. (Now we have six.)
What eventually worked, and in hindsight it makes a lot of sense, was to respond to their cries at longer and longer intervals, (e.g 1 min, 2 min, 3 min, etc.)
At some point it seems babies get this wrong idea in their head that they are helping you when they are crying out.
This slow weaning of response time teaches them that you are in fact close by, so it reduces their stress.
by mbalex99 on 2/26/21, 10:03 PM
Though I was raised in the US. The one thing that I noticed that was weird was when my friends called their parents by the first name.
Also it was weird how kids and parents were friends with each other. Not in my house! Parent and child had only two things of conversation school, not getting sick, and making sure I eat the food before it got cold.
by ketamine__ on 2/24/21, 9:28 PM
> "Is he in his own room yet?" is a question new parents often field once they emerge from the haze of life with a newborn. But sleeping apart from our babies is a relatively recent development – and not one that extends around the globe. In other cultures sharing a room, and sometimes a bed, with your baby is the norm.
Westerners have more sex?
by jaimex2 on 2/25/21, 12:31 AM
Two kids, western parent.
We don't sleep with them so we can be well rested the next day and be better parents for them. This includes making sure the relationship with your partner is in good standing.
Prams are a convenient way to keep your children safe while being able to do your errands. Bending down especially with a child attached is not fun.
by whatever1 on 2/24/21, 10:20 PM
The thing that I don’t get from the Western culture is what is the point of parenting? Both parents work and they immediately unload their baby to a day care. I was shocked to learn that 9 month babies are sent to day-cares.
Is paying the bills for a human you barely see called parenting?
by bitwize on 2/24/21, 9:22 PM
It should not be surprising that the societies most prone to toxic individualism have largely abandoned or forgotten the way children have been raised for thousands of years, in favor of ways that reinforce and perpetuate that toxic individualism.
by walshemj on 2/24/21, 6:39 PM
Not given the conditions in the west, Comparing conditions in one culture with radically different areas with different access to $ and other services - clean water for example.
Some parts of the world still have mortality rates of over 20% up till the age of five.
by known on 3/1/21, 7:13 AM
"You are a product of your environment" --Clement Stone (b. 1902) https://archive.is/yPhyn
by lifeplusplus on 2/24/21, 9:52 PM
coming from another country i can see clear difference in how child are raised in usa.
There as long as baby is with mom, fed on time, and kept clean. baby just grows up fine. few months are hectic but then their night time matches everyone else. Given there is afternoon nap.
eventually they are like 5 and start playing with neighborhood kids and then it's just automatic.
by nathias on 2/24/21, 5:36 PM
Yes, everything humans do is weird.
by Tommek on 2/24/21, 8:54 PM
And look were it has brought us in comparison. Moon, Mars ... living for ages.
by mpalmer on 2/24/21, 3:51 PM
> Kuroda [...] didn’t find any correlation between the amount of time babies were carried and the amount they cried. "I couldn’t agree with that," she says.
> Her research found that carrying a baby reduced [...] how much they cried.
...what?
by Cthulhu_ on 2/24/21, 3:35 PM
To be blunt and controversial, do people living in the mentioned region (Asia) even HAVE multiple rooms / a nursery? I mean I don't.
by JoeAltmaier on 2/24/21, 2:10 PM
They say because people from India that move to Britain still have low SIDS incidence, that its cultural. How about, genetic?
by achenatx on 2/24/21, 7:56 PM
I do whatever is most convenient for me. We slept with our babies until they were 3-4 months. I typically did all the nighttime stuff like changing diapers etc because I fall asleep so fast. I was never exhausted. They did breast feed, but I would put them in the right place while my wife slept, then when they were done would change the diaper.
When they started to sleep 5+ hours we moved them to their own room. We did let them cry, but I could easily tell if it was going to ramp down or if their crying was getting worse.
When she was 1 our oldest regressed and I slept in her room for a month so she wouldnt come wake us up. She regressed multiple times.
Our middle child never came down because he slept with his sister until he was about 4.
Our 5 year old has started coming down to wake me up 2-3 times at night. I told her to either sleep with her brother or sister and not to bother me (I do all nightime activities).
I found kids books incredibly boring so didnt read to my kids.
I hardly play kid games with my kids, though I do have them participate in things I like to do.
Im trying to give them independence as quickly as possible. We have a rule that the youngest person that can do a job has to do the job. So the youngest has to fetch things, while the oldest is starting to make meals and do laundry.
They only get internet from 6am-7am once they are ready for the day and in the evening once all their work is done. I have never had to wake any of them for school ever. If they complain about being bored they get to do chores.
I dont really use anyones' advice and would never feel shame or confusion about how to raise my children. I do see how many of our parents are scared to parent their kids.
by alex_anglin on 2/24/21, 2:19 PM
Another great example of Betteridge's law.
by LegitShady on 2/24/21, 2:10 PM
No,no it's not. Things can be different without being weird. Weird is a judgement while different is a fact.
For example, I could say BBC opinion pieces are weird garbage but that would be an opinion.
I could say "man it's weird this is so high up on hackernews with no comments and six points", that would be an opinion too.
by wayneftw on 2/24/21, 2:39 PM
I'm amazed that corporal punishment in schools is still legal throughout much of the US [0].
Perhaps it's mostly not used. I'm not sure because I went to school in New Jersey where it's outlawed even in private schools.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_...