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Ask HN: How to Have a Life Without Seeming Lazy?

by moonfleet on 1/7/21, 8:46 AM with 9 comments

• by st1x7 on 1/7/21, 9:55 AM

  Framing this as passionate vs lazy is very beneficial to people who aren't you but benefit a lot from your hard work.

  The real conflict is that

  1) you need to set up some boundaries and have some realistic professional expectations about working hours

  2) you're working in the type of company which thrives on doing the exact opposite and taking advantage of its employess as much as possible

  So when you try 1) and it fails because of 2), look for a job at a company that isn't a startup. (Not being a startup doesn't guarantuee better respect for working hours, just increases the probability.)

  Some other options are to give in to the pressure from management/peers and work for free (doesn't sound good to me). The other is that your additional time is incredibly well-compensated or that the success of the company has huge upside for you and this makes the extra effort worthwhile (seems unlikely).

• by gitgud on 1/7/21, 1:56 PM

  Being effectively "on standby" via Slack, sounds terrible. I would suggest telling them that you're available by phone call if there's an emergency.

  If you don't value your spare time, they won't feel bad for wasting it...

• by metaloha on 1/7/21, 2:45 PM

  Having a rotating "dev on call" (weekly, maybe) could work well as long as there is good enough telemetry for any problems that might occur that would allow any dev on the list to at least triage problems that arise. Sorry about the length of that last sentence.

  It would also encourage devs to have an idea of how every section of the product works, not just their specific window into it :)

  Combine that with enforcing non-work time and it _should_ be cool as long as your company isn't trying to take advantage of you. I don't have Slack installed on my phone because I've learned that any problems with my code are either a) not serious enough to get me to work at 9pm (i.e. it can wait until morning), or b) serious enough to warrant an actual phone call (because let's face it, I could be out in the yard, out grocery shopping, etc. and not able to use a computer and read Slack or email messages conveniently).

  Startups in particular can sometimes take advantage of employee's willingness to be available 24/7 by expecting _all_ employees to be available 24/7, but that should definitely be voluntary.

• by thorin on 1/7/21, 1:23 PM

  Been in this situation in a start up, it didn't work for me due to other commitments. I was laid off due to lack of commitment etc. Best think that happened to me as I was able to kick off my consulting career in a much more suitable company. If you don't fit the company accept that you may need to move on, they're not going to change for you. Hope it works out for you.

• by forgotmypw17 on 1/7/21, 8:49 AM

  There's no need to demand anything.

  Do what works for you.

  The boundaries will be where you set them.

• by shoo on 1/7/21, 8:14 PM

  i recommend only installing work comms (email, slack notifications) on work-specific devices (computer, phone), never on your personal devices. Then turn all work devices off except for during the contractually agreed hours when you are paid to work.

  If you have agreed to do an on call rotation then you need to be contactable, but you should only be doing an on call rotation if you've agreed to do it and are getting paid an additional amount in return etc, not as some extra new unpaid duty they try to spring on you in addition to your regular duties!

  Instead of framing it as "laziness" you could try to reframe it as "business" (i.e. your own business where you exchange your time and ability to perform software development services in exchange for money). Your client -- the people who run the startup you are providing services to -- are presumably business people, they should be used to negotiating with other business people. If they were to do a bunch of work for their own clients for free without negotiating any payment, that would reflect poorly on their abilities as business people. Similarly for you.

  You don't have to demand anything, demanding is generally not a helpful way to frame things in commercial negotiations -- a more accurate way to frame things is "request". But you can set and then communicate your boundaries clearly. Your employer cannot force you to be available on chat outside of paid working hours, so just stop doing it and tell them that you're not available for unpaid overtime. No need to demand, just do, then communicate.

  Maybe words along the lines of: "i understand $NEWLY_LAUNCHED_PRODUCT will sometimes need support outside of business hours. the current contract doesn't include a provision to pay overtime if i'm on call for out of hours support, so unfortunately for business reasons it doesn't make commercial sense for me to provide free out of hours support. i'm open to helping $STARTUP with $PUTTING_OUT_NEWPRODUCT_FIRES_AT_3AM_ON_A_SUNDAY, but we would need to update the contract to reflect that and get a commercial arrangement in place that's win-win for both parties.

• by giantg2 on 1/7/21, 12:25 PM

  It depends. If this is only for a month or so while the launch happens, this may be fine. If this is a pattern or ongoing, then I would say it's an issue. Even if it's durning the launch, if you need a day off and disconnect, take it. Just tell them you need the day off for whatever reason (an appointment, travel, to recharge). They should be understanding. You can even make the argument that you're only a mid-level, so your senior and tech lead should be able to support your work or contact you if absolutely necessary.

  You could try suggesting an on-call schedule too. That way you don't have to be on slack during off-hours as much.

• by pestatije on 1/7/21, 11:22 AM

  Are they properly compensating for overtime? I'd say that's the main point of contention. You can push it to your benefit: more pay, more holidays, or some other arrangement.

• by p0d on 1/7/21, 11:30 PM

  I fixed it by getting a 9-5 job. I don't think it is a question of respect as much as culture. If I were to contact my colleagues now out of hours they would think I was mad. In a small IT company out of hours contact is the norm, especially if you are a serious contributor.