from Hacker News

Zoom executive charged with disrupting meetings commemorating Tiananmen Square

by imraj96 on 12/19/20, 2:15 AM with 228 comments

• by dehrmann on 12/19/20, 3:15 AM

  > Jin’s co-conspirators created fake email accounts and Company-1 accounts in the names of others, including PRC political dissidents, to fabricate evidence that the hosts of and participants in the meetings to commemorate the Tiananmen Square massacre were supporting terrorist organizations, inciting violence or distributing child pornography. The fabricated evidence falsely asserted that the meetings included discussions of child abuse or exploitation, terrorism, racism or incitements to violence, and sometimes included screenshots of the purported participants’ user profiles featuring, for example, a masked person holding a flag resembling that of the Islamic State terrorist group.

  Ah. So it's not quite disrupting meetings, it's framing people as pedophiles an terrorists.

• by fossuser on 12/19/20, 3:50 AM

  So much for “Zoom is committed to supporting the open exchange of ideas and conversations” - it was clear this was nonsense when they said it, but the stuff alleged here is way worse than even I would have predicted.

  These people are awful - Zoom should be avoided (along probably with any company operating primarily out of China, under influence of the CCP).

  https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html

• by rosywoozlechan on 12/19/20, 3:09 AM

  There's even an FBI wanted poster for this executive:

  https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/counterintelligence/xinjiang-jin/...

• by hyperrail on 12/19/20, 4:46 AM

  Here's Zoom's own public statement on the matter: https://blog.zoom.us/our-perspective-on-the-doj-complaint/

  The statement also says that Zoom itself is under separate US federal investigations for its dealings with Chinese and other foreign governments, as well as its security and privacy practices more generally.

• by vyrotek on 12/19/20, 2:58 AM

  What other platforms compete with Zoom with comparable API integrations?

  We need features including: OAuth, Meeting scheduling, meeting link generation (without requiring user accounts), managing recordings, meeting status webhooks, etc.

  https://marketplace.zoom.us/docs/api-reference/zoom-api

• by gruez on 12/19/20, 3:07 AM

  Is this likely to go anywhere? The press release says an arrest warrant was issued, but the person charged isn't in custody. I doubt china is going to send him over, nor is he going to be on a plane headed to the US anytime soon, so nothing's going to happen to him unless he decides to enter the US?

• by spoonjim on 12/19/20, 3:18 AM

  All of this CCP poison inside Zoom must be a huge gift to Microsoft Teams.

• by _cs2017_ on 12/19/20, 4:02 AM

  How is it that Zoom became so popular despite numerous large tech firms offering competing products?

• by cherylskylar on 12/19/20, 4:26 AM

  Unclear how Zoom evades the public eye while other companies like Huawei get so much flack for efforts that are in favor of/support the CCP.

• by archibaldJ on 12/19/20, 5:40 AM

  I’m working on a ZOOM-alternative for online events and gatherings that uses twilio: https://lo.fish

  It is built on eilixir & will be open-sourced soon. (The next step I’m looking to make it E2E.)

  There are also existing ZOOM-alternatives like https://gather.town

• by duxup on 12/19/20, 4:03 AM

  “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.”

  ― Martin Luther King Jr.

  This seems more hauntingly true than ever, and with the internet and people's social lives and communication tied to products from 'everywhere', seemingly injustice anywhere seems to be inching closer and closer to home.

  It's not 'well some other place' anymore...

• by cwwc on 12/19/20, 3:23 AM

  The most BA conspiracy would be if the CCP thought about releasing a virus and said to themselves “hey, what will everyone need in a pandemic? Videoconference!” They funded Zoom, then released the virus and boom - they suddenly have access to every company and academic discussion out there.

  If I plotting things, that’s how I’d do it at least. But alas reality isn’t a Bond film.

• by jrochkind1 on 12/19/20, 4:08 AM

  "unlawful conspiracy to transfer a means of identification."

  I don't think I've ever heard that phrase before. It's a federal crime? What does it mean?

• by rognjen on 12/19/20, 7:08 AM

  Any time news like this comes out about a company effectively run by the CCP I'm utterly and completely shocked! Shocked I tell you! \s

• by random5634 on 12/19/20, 4:01 AM

  Is there anyone close to competitive in terms of user mindshare? We are on zoom. I'd love to get off.

  Google Meet? - others on gsuite domains blocked from joining, rules around having accounts etc? We need background replacement or blur. I tried before and couldn't really make it a success (and so confusing with hangouts, chat, talk, duo, allo etc). Background replacement not as good as zoom.

  Uberconference - audio latency is worse - we've dialed down our use for conference calls.

  Jitasa - I don't see background replace on this?

• by yogue on 12/19/20, 5:20 AM

  The litmus test, IMHO, should be if any other American competitors of Zoom - viz. Google Meet, FaceTime, Teams, fb Messenger rooms etc. - are getting charged for similar activities? If not, then it may be worth questioning if Zoom is really as “American” or “non-Chinese” as it claims to be!

• by i_am_proteus on 12/19/20, 9:59 AM

  >Part of Jin’s duties included providing information to the PRC government about Company-1’s users and meetings, and in some cases he provided information – such as Internet Protocol addresses, names and email addresses – of users located outside of the PRC. Jin was also responsible for proactively monitoring Company-1’s video communications platform for what the PRC government considers to be “illegal” meetings to discuss political and religious subjects unacceptable to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and the PRC government.

  So if I am readings this right, PRC authorities are using Zoom employees to monitor the activity of Zoom users both inside and outside the PRC.

• by elliekelly on 12/19/20, 2:56 AM

  I’ve never even heard of either of the things they’ve charged. I wonder why they went with conspiracy to commit interstate harassment and conspiracy to transfer means of identification rather than with CFAA or wiretapping charges.

• by samcheng on 12/19/20, 4:20 AM

  We already knew Zoom was ethically-challenged from the auto-install shenanigans, though, right?

  https://mjtsai.com/blog/2019/07/09/zoom-vulnerabilities/

• by neartheplain on 12/19/20, 3:25 AM

  The executive fabricated illegal user activity on Zoom, to include distribution of child pornography, falsely attributed to opponents of China’s Communist Party:

  >Jin’s co-conspirators created fake email accounts and Company-1 accounts in the names of others, including PRC political dissidents, to fabricate evidence that the hosts of and participants in the meetings to commemorate the Tiananmen Square massacre were supporting terrorist organizations, inciting violence or distributing child pornography.

  Imagine if it had been you. Imagine if you logged into a Tiananmen Square Massacre commemoration from your couch in Sunnyvale, and days or weeks later, American police knocked down your door and arrested you in front of your family for distribution of child pornography. Imagine going to trial against a prosecutor armed with “authentic” Zoom logs of your criminal activity.

  The potential for this type of attack does not only exist within Zoom.

• by jariel on 12/19/20, 3:06 AM

  The real issue is how such a fundamentally important thing - video communications - isn't rock solid and a commodity by now such that any of FAANG, Verizon/AT&T and a host of others don't provide it as easy as anything else.

  Imagine if you thought CCP were reading your emails? Would your company/school/government use that service? I don't think so.

  Having supply chain problems for ASICS is one thing.

  But 'video conferencing' ... my gosh we should be embarrassed as an industry that this wasn't nailed down a decade ago.

• by hiidrew on 12/19/20, 3:43 AM

  Seems like an early Christmas gift to Microsoft Teams

• by staz on 12/19/20, 10:57 AM

  Remember that Zoom falsify claimed to have E2E encryption that would have prevented it's employee to snoop in on such conversation...

• by runawaybottle on 12/19/20, 4:00 AM

  What are the chances these orders to co-opt people in China to do this is coming straight from the top of the CCP?

  There is a school of thought that provides a lot of analysis and evidence that the acceleration of the Holocaust was a bottom-up phenomenon (not a master plan made by Hitler years before). Hitler might have laid out details to exile the Jews, but there was no evidence he gave a direct order to begin full scale extermination via extermination camps (different from forced labor camps).

  The evidence suggests the underlying Nazi ideologies gave ample flexibility to middle management Nazis to begin competing and escalating into a full blown Holocaust.

  With that said, I wonder if the top CCP leaders gave the order ‘get a Zoom executive to troll the Tiananmen Square meetings’, or ‘Specifically do X and X to the Uighurs’. It could very well be possible that there is no directive, just a general ideology that is now being executed in creative ways, completely independent of leadership (but ultimately co-signed by leadership as it fits the ideology).

  Once the Nazi sub leadership began their mass shootings of the Jews, they couldn’t stop. They found out it was too much to do at scale, so they escalated to gas chambers.

  CCP sub leadership may not be able to stop what they have started.

• by detaro on 12/19/20, 3:16 AM

  also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25471274

• by jtdev on 12/19/20, 3:44 AM

  I’m shocked that Zoom is still operating in the United States... it’s obvious after the countless incidents that Zoom is a tool of the CCP. Americans should boycott Zoom.

• by ipnon on 12/19/20, 3:13 AM

  As alleged, the defendant was an active agent of the CCP and PRC intelligence[a] working inside an American company to deny the rights of freedom of speech and religion to residents of America.[b] The PRC is willfully breaking American law to disenfranchise Americans of their constitutional rights.

  [a] “The allegations in the complaint lay bare the Faustian bargain that the PRC government demands of U.S. technology companies doing business within the PRC’s borders, and the insider threat that those companies face from their own employees in the PRC,” said Acting United States Attorney Seth D. DuCharme. “As alleged, Jin worked closely with the PRC government and members of PRC intelligence services to help the PRC government silence the political and religious speech of users of the platform of a U.S. technology company. Jin willingly committed crimes, and sought to mislead others at the company, to help PRC authorities censor and punish U.S. users’ core political speech merely for exercising their rights to free expression."

  [b] "As this complaint alleges, that freedom was directly infringed upon by the pernicious activities of Communist China’s Intelligence Services, in support of a regime that neither reflects nor upholds our democratic values,” said FBI Director Christopher Wray. “Americans should understand that the Chinese Government will not hesitate to exploit companies operating in China to further their international agenda, including repression of free speech.”

• by peteretep on 12/19/20, 2:52 AM

  Jesus, if true this has gotta be a mortal wound to Zoom

• by sergiotapia on 12/19/20, 3:00 AM

  I will speak with other leaders at my company to move us away from Zoom for conferencing. If you're a leader how can you read this and not only tolerate it, but pay for it? This is it.

• by marketgod on 12/19/20, 3:33 AM

  LOL ignore all this crap. The government courts are using Zoom. Just buy their stock.

• by camdenlock on 12/19/20, 4:44 AM

  Are these sorts of investigations and revelations going to disappear now that the Democratic Party has been elected to power?